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Who Fights First


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I actually think one player choosing all their pieces first is a good decision, especially as it stops gristlegore being quite so strong. 

If we alternate and two eel units charge a gristlegore general. One eel unit goes first and does some damage, then the gkot goes and kills everything. 

Under these rules the Deepkin player has a good chance if taking out the gkot in their turn. Same goes for fantatics, bloodthirsters etc. 

 

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7 hours ago, Sleboda said:

And if they are going to change wording on things as recently produced and sold as these newer warscrolls (written with full knowledge of the current rules and play environment) I'll be wanting replacement cards for the "defective" ones.

It's one thing to make adjustments to older & free products. It's another to make changes to something they just sold me.

Haha tell that to every KO player ;) What was it? Three months until they did the big changes?

But it's the whole set up. So they won't be giving it to you. If you bought Skaven cards or the book. In March they wording on Thanquol and the Verminlord corruptor was changed. 
End of January they changed 8 rules in the Gloomspite Gitz rules. 

They could easily have added the changes needed to those documents to make the wording uniform to the FAQ's. As is the standard practice for GW.

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6 hours ago, Chikout said:

If we alternate and two eel units charge a gristlegore general. One eel unit goes first and does some damage, then the gkot goes and kills everything.

Depends heavily on how many additional attacks the eels have and how many there are in the unit, they would likely shred poor GKoTG as well as half of the FEC army in that 3rd turn

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Just have to get this out of my system.

So Games Workshop just released an explaination on the fighting mechanics we’ve been puzzled over.

Oh really? So how did they figure it out now?

It’s all pretty simple. Who fights first, What fights second. Idanno fights third.

Wait. Buddy if you don’t know you don’t you don’t have to lie.

But I’m not lying.

Okay then. So who fights first?

That’s right.

Who is the guy that fights first?

Yes.

What’s his name?

Who?

The guy who fights first.

Who.

The guy who fights first?

Who.

What’s the guys name?

No. Who.

What fights first?

No Who fights first.

That is what I’m asking. Forget it. What’s the guy who fights second?

Thats right.

That’s right? Who fights second?

No. What fights second, Who  fights first.

I dunno. 

He fights third.

What fights third?

No , What fights second.

I dunno.

That’s third.

I dunno is third?

Thats right. 

Who fights second?

No Who fights first.

You tell me!

 

(If anyone wants me to do the whole sketch let me know.)

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8 minutes ago, EMMachine said:

Hm, when looking at the wall of text GW made in the Rulebook FAQ I have the feeling they have to go back to the drawing board to make the rules better (so less FAQ would be needed).

Nah, they always need a wall of text in the FAQs because some yahoo is going to email asking about the specific use of the word "the" in the fourth sentence of the original FAQ and insist that it changes the whole meaning of the word.

Ordering already made sense the first time they addressed it, it's just that people are going to continue being super pedantic about it unless they overexplain it.

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4 hours ago, EMMachine said:

Hm, when looking at the wall of text GW made in the Rulebook FAQ I have the feeling they have to go back to the drawing board to make the rules better (so less FAQ would be needed).

I had a similar thought when I saw this new article.

See first I was all "Hey, good on them for making a graphic to explain a non-intuitive part of the game."

Then I quickly shifted my thoughts to "Uh oh. There is this really non-intuitive part of the game that is so hard to figure out that it required not only an article to explain it, but also a graphic. What else in the game am I getting wrong because the rules are not well written?"

 

Also, @Requizen - One man's pedantic is another man's playing by the rules. Considering Jervis recently penned an article instructing folks to apply the rule as written, I think it would be poor sportsmanship to tell someone they were being pedantic for simply trying to follow the rule they see printed.

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True, and I’m willing to bet the next rules issue will be with people overanalysing this phrase...

0B736A5B-80A6-452B-BFC4-98909341CFF7.jpeg.d81bd808d92e0e132c43727ba9f4317d.jpeg

 

its like they just couldn’t help themselves , and leave a little caveat in there 😂

Edit; that’s why I don’t honk it’s a shame they didn’t go back on every warscroll with a fights first, last to match the wording. 

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22 hours ago, Requizen said:

Nah, they always need a wall of text in the FAQs because some yahoo is going to email asking about the specific use of the word "the" in the fourth sentence of the original FAQ and insist that it changes the whole meaning of the word.

Ordering already made sense the first time they addressed it, it's just that people are going to continue being super pedantic about it unless they overexplain it.

They wouldn't need it if the rules wouldn't have huge exploits, (but also I don't want to see rules that are written by a lawyer or engineer, like I see in 9th Age for example).

18 hours ago, Sleboda said:

Then I quickly shifted my thoughts to "Uh oh. There is this really non-intuitive part of the game that is so hard to figure out that it required not only an article to explain it, but also a graphic. What else in the game am I getting wrong because the rules are not well written?"

Yeah, I have a similar feeling here. I mean, we have alternative activation in the corerules, so why not alternating the start and end as well.

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On 3/21/2019 at 3:08 PM, Skabnoze said:

I am glad that they are making clarifications, but I have to say that I am not completely thrilled with this decision.

My personal opinion is that I don't care for one player being able to choose for every unit he has with the ability to fight first to do so before his opponent.  If both players have units with that rule then I would prefer to see the player whose turn it is gets to pick one of his units first and then the players alternate - the same as it works in the standard phase of combat.

I also wish that they had clarified how the "whirling death" ability of fanatics works in regards to this change.  Their ability still states "fights at the start of the combat phase, before the players pick any other units to fight in that combat phase".  That second clause does not exist for the Deepkin Tide ability - so how is that resolved?  Do fanatics fight before Deepkin units due to the second clause?  That is a reasoned argument to make.  Or is the Fanatic ability mean to be the same as other "fights at the start of the combat phase" ability and in which case the player whose turn it is decides which unit goes first.  Hopefully they clarify this.

'Start of the combat phase'

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10 minutes ago, Belper said:

'Start of the combat phase'

We figured that out about 6 posts after that quote.

I still think they should have made an errata in the army book for those specific abilities in order to make the language consistent across the board.

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On 3/21/2019 at 5:10 PM, King Taloren said:

So now they just made it so on Idoneth’s turn they can fight before any opponents can use their abilities that are used at the start of the combat phase. Getting around the Sequitors choose your rerolls ability and others...

That seems unintended but is the way I read it too. Same for doppleganger cloack and other at the start of the combat phase abilities.  Units that can fight at the start of the combat phase will strike in their turn before the defender can use any of his abilities that are declared at the start of the combat phase

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1 hour ago, azdimy said:

That seems unintended but is the way I read it too. Same for doppleganger cloack and other at the start of the combat phase abilities.  Units that can fight at the start of the combat phase will strike in their turn before the defender can use any of his abilities that are declared at the start of the combat phase

Actually in the  designer commentary the specifically call out the Sequitors ability vs Gristlegore’s strike first and say that yes strike first gets around these abilities as well during the Gristlegore players turn.

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43 minutes ago, King Taloren said:

Actually in the  designer commentary the specifically call out the Sequitors ability vs Gristlegore’s strike first and say that yes strike first gets around these abilities as well during the Gristlegore players turn.

So it's basically an order of operations. 

Basically anything with "This X can fight at the start of the combat phase" will fight, alternating, but starting with whose turn it currently is, if both players have units or models with said abilities. 

Then abilities that start at the start of the combat phase will activate, such as the choice to use an Aspiring Deathbringer's command ability. 

Then it will proceed into the middle of the combat phase as normal, where alternating fights take place, beginning with the player whose turn it currently is. 

Then it will go to the end of the combat phase.

Things which fight at the end of the combat phase will fight.

Then abilities which trigger at the end of the combat phase will trigger. 

Is this accurate? 

 

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Yes it is pretty accurate. This is fairly big though for Idoneth because on our half of Turn 3 means we can attack with our entire army before artifacts like doppelgänger cloak and Sequitors Etheric channeling can be used to stop/soften the blow. 

Not only that but if Morsaar haven’t used their Biocharge ability it can then be used after attacking since you can choose the order of your abilities and in which order they go off.

It’s atually quite overpowered right now with this change in the rules.

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@Ravinsild maybe I'm getting what you're saying wrong but no not exactly. as I understand it it goes like this.


Both players have units that can fight at the start of the combat round, units that fight normally and units that are forced (or can choose) to fight at the end of the round.

It is PLAYER A's turn.

-----------------------------------------------

PLAYER A fights with all his units that can fight at the start of the combat round, choosing them in whichever order they prefer.

PLAYER B then fights with all his units that can fight at the start of the combat round, choosing them in whichever order they prefer.

-----------------------------------------------

PLAYER A then picks the first of his units that fight in the normal combat phase

PLAYER B then picks one of his units eligible to fight.

Both players then carry on alternating until all the units eligible to fight in the normal phase have had a chance to fight.

-----------------------------------------------

PLAYER A then fights with all his units that have to fight at the end of the combat round, choosing them in whichever order they prefer.

PLAYER B then fights with all his units that have to fight at the end of the combat round, choosing them in whichever order they prefer.

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6 minutes ago, JPjr said:

@Ravinsild maybe I'm getting what you're saying wrong but no not exactly. as I understand it it goes like this.


Both players have units that can fight at the start of the combat round, units that fight normally and units that are forced (or can choose) to fight at the end of the round.

It is PLAYER A's turn.

-----------------------------------------------

PLAYER A fights with all his units that can fight at the start of the combat round, and use their abilities that take place at the start of the combat phase,choosing them in whichever order they prefer. 

PLAYER B then fights with all his units that can fight at the start of the combat round, and use abilities that take place at the start of the combat phase, choosing them in whichever order they prefer.

-----------------------------------------------

PLAYER A then picks the first of his units that fight in the normal combat phase

PLAYER B then picks one of his units eligible to fight.

Both players then carry on alternating until all the units eligible to fight in the normal phase have had a chance to fight.

-----------------------------------------------

PLAYER A then fights with all his units that have to fight at the end of the combat round, choosing them in whichever order they prefer.

PLAYER B then fights with all his units that have to fight at the end of the combat round, choosing them in whichever order they prefer.

Added small correction for accuracy.

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On 3/21/2019 at 5:04 PM, Easytyger said:

Oh maybe someone can answer this for me as I do believe it has already been FAQed but I can’t find it.  If one spell or ability contradicts another which one takes precedence? 

So an example I wish they had run through is a unit that has “attacks at start of combat phase” ( uh keyword First Strike? ...) has Soul Cage cast on them causing them to attack at the end of the combat phase. What happens?

From my recollection the Soul Cage effect would take precedence since it occurred most recently or something like that. Can someone clarify and point me to the appropriate FAQ?

To amend by previous example. now reviewing things, there's a little more to it.  Or at least it is dependent on when the unit got the ability to fight at the start of the combat phase. 

Night Haunt Player casts Soul Cage on Bloodthirster during the NH Hero phase. At the start of the NH players combat phase, Khorne Player's Bloodthirster has Kartoth the BloodHunger and he rolls 4+.  This weapon's ability is that model equipped can fight at start of combat phase on 4+. Now the BT would get to attack at the start of the combat phase instead on at the end of the combat phase.  

Contrast this with the same scenario but the BT had Halo of Blood instead of Kartoth. In this case BT would fight at the end of the combat phase instead of the start of the combat phase.

Does this look right? 

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That looks about right. You now places effects in the order in which starting with the player whose turn it is. Any conflicts will now be overridden by the later ability that takes place.

The only exception to this rule is the +1/-1 abilities these will stack and simply cancel out each other instead.

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Honestly, they should do more than simply say that the player whose turn it is decides how to resolve things.  That works, but it is lazy.  Keeping the core rules lean is fine, but at some point it is beneficial to specifically design how these interactions work.

The more special unit rules and interactions that they add to the game over time will eventually start to clutter up the FAQs and designer commentary.  Creating a core framework for some of these rules to fall within will simply keep things cleaner for longer.

In my opinion it a unit had a strikes first and strikes last ability then they should simply cancel and the unit strike in the normal phase. That was how older versions of Fantasy resolved this exact situation and many other games I have seen over the years resolves this.

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How does the deamon prince with mark of slaanesh interact with these start and end phase combats. If I cast itchy nuisance on the Deamon prince would he still be able to pile in and attack before the end phase if I select a unit to attack within 1in of him?

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