Who Fights First

[SwampHeart]

GW just provided some updated guidance on the correct way to resolve 'fight first' scenarios plus some new errata wording on warhammer community.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/03/21/who-fights-first/

[Skabnoze]

I am glad that they are making clarifications, but I have to say that I am not completely thrilled with this decision.

My personal opinion is that I don't care for one player being able to choose for every unit he has with the ability to fight first to do so before his opponent.  If both players have units with that rule then I would prefer to see the player whose turn it is gets to pick one of his units first and then the players alternate - the same as it works in the standard phase of combat.

I also wish that they had clarified how the "whirling death" ability of fanatics works in regards to this change.  Their ability still states "fights at the start of the combat phase, before the players pick any other units to fight in that combat phase".  That second clause does not exist for the Deepkin Tide ability - so how is that resolved?  Do fanatics fight before Deepkin units due to the second clause?  That is a reasoned argument to make.  Or is the Fanatic ability mean to be the same as other "fights at the start of the combat phase" ability and in which case the player whose turn it is decides which unit goes first.  Hopefully they clarify this.

[SwampHeart]

3 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

I also wish that they had clarified how the "whirling death" ability of fanatics works in regards to this change.  Their ability still states "fights at the start of the combat phase, before the players pick any other units to fight in that combat phase".

Same issue still exists for FEC as well (Gristlegore has the same end clause in the 'Savage Strike' command ability). 

[NurglesFirstChosen]

3 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

I am glad that they are making clarifications, but I have to say that I am not completely thrilled with this decision.

My personal opinion is that I don't care for one player being able to choose for every unit he has with the ability to fight first to do so before his opponent.  If both players have units with that rule then I would prefer to see the player whose turn it is gets to pick one of his units first and then the players alternate - the same as it works in the standard phase of combat.

I also wish that they had clarified how the "whirling death" ability of fanatics works in regards to this change.  Their ability still states "fights at the start of the combat phase, before the players pick any other units to fight in that combat phase".  That second clause does not exist for the Deepkin Tide ability - so how is that resolved?  Do fanatics fight before Deepkin units due to the second clause?  That is a reasoned argument to make.  Or is the Fanatic ability mean to be the same as other "fights at the start of the combat phase" ability and in which case the player whose turn it is decides which unit goes first.  Hopefully they clarify this.

It’ll be the same 

[Skabnoze]

6 minutes ago, NurglesFirstChosen said:

It’ll be the same 

Maybe.  I can accept that it works the same as any other "strikes at the start of the combat phase ability" - but they need to make that clarification.  I play Grots and I am easy going enough that I don't mind playing it either way depending on my opponent's interpretation.   But if I played against a Gloomspite player and that person argued based on the wording that it strikes before even other strikes-first abilities due to that clause I would not argue against them.

Honestly, they really should have cleared all of that up at the same time.  It is not like these books are old at all and not many of these abilities exist.  They could have brought them all in line at the same time and then issues their clarification article.  This unfortunately strikes me as a lazy effort since it still leaves some abilities unresolved.

[Skreech Verminking]

I’m not sure what they just where trying to explain.

with these little clarification, they mentioned something of the guy who’s turn it is can go first in the combat phase, does this technically mean that if it is my turn my Stormvermins can attack before a deepkins unit, which has the death something trait?

 

[Requizen]

17 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

Maybe.  I can accept that it works the same as any other "strikes at the start of the combat phase ability" - but they need to make that clarification.  I play Grots and I am easy going enough that I don't mind playing it either way depending on my opponent's interpretation.   But if I played against a Gloomspite player and that person argued based on the wording that it strikes before even other strikes-first abilities due to that clause I would not argue against them.

Honestly, they really should have cleared all of that up at the same time.  It is not like these books are old at all and not many of these abilities exist.  They could have brought them all in line at the same time and then issues their clarification article.  This unfortunately strikes me as a lazy effort since it still leaves some abilities unresolved.

They have the clarification right there. There's literally a giant graphic answering your question, I'm not sure how they could have made it more clear.

15 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

I’m not sure what they just where trying to explain.

with these little clarification, they mentioned something of the guy who’s turn it is can go first in the combat phase, does this technically mean that if it is my turn my Stormvermins can attack before a deepkins unit, which has the death something trait?

 

Look at the graphic. There are three "timings" in the combat phase: start, during, and end. If it's turn 3 and all Deepkin fight first, then they all fight during "start". Your units all fight "during". 

[Skabnoze]

@Requizen I expect you are correct.  But they should have changed the wording of other abilities to remove the second clause.  One ability says fights at the start of the turn.  The other says fights at the start of the turn before any units are chosen to fight.  If we go with the 3 timing categories that they created, you still have to select units to fight in an order during each of those categories.  One of these abilities says "before the players pick any other units to fight in that combat phase" - and even units that strike at the start of the phase are picked to fight.  I would not fault anyone for saying this ability fights before other units that fight at the start of the combat phase - because the wording of this ability pretty much says exactly that.

My point is that they could have easily clarified this in a definitive way and they did not do so.  I don't really care which way they rule this to work.  I just want them to completely settle the issue and I disagree with you that they have actually done so.

[Skreech Verminking]

10 minutes ago, Requizen said:

 

Look at the graphic. There are three "timings" in the combat phase: start, during, and end. If it's turn 3 and all Deepkin fight first, then they all fight during "start". Your units all fight "during". 

So nothing chances.

Well thanks for the clarification, it helps me a lot😁👍🏻

[Requizen]

6 minutes ago, Skabnoze said:

@Requizen I expect you are correct.  But they should have changed the wording of other abilities to remove the second clause.  One ability says fights at the start of the turn.  The other says fights at the start of the turn before any units are chosen to fight.  If we go with the 3 timing categories that they created, you still have to select units to fight in an order during each of those categories.  One of these abilities says "before the players pick any other units to fight in that combat phase" - and even units that strike at the start of the phase are picked to fight.  I would not fault anyone for saying this ability fights before other units that fight at the start of the combat phase - because the wording of this ability pretty much says exactly that.

My point is that they could have easily clarified this in a definitive way and they did not do so.  I don't really care which way they rule this to work.  I just want them to completely settle the issue and I disagree with you that they have actually done so.

That's pretty pointlessly nitpicky to be honest.

[Kramer]

35 minutes ago, Requizen said:

They have the clarification right there. There's literally a giant graphic answering your question, I'm not sure how they could have made it more clear.

Im with @Skabnoze on this. The rules being the rules that little clause on the fanatics ability should only be there for a reason. So it’s reasonable to assume it’s there for a reason. Otherwise why write it down. 

Now I still think it doesn’t mean fanatics break the explanation article but if gw does take the spotlight to clarify... than also fix all the warscrolls to match the terminologies. 🤷‍♂️

[Easytyger]

6 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Im with @Skabnoze on this. The rules being the rules that little clause on the fanatics ability should only be there for a reason. So it’s reasonable to assume it’s there for a reason. Otherwise why write it down. 

Now I still think it doesn’t mean fanatics break the explanation article but if gw does take the spotlight to clarify... than also fix all the warscrolls to match the terminologies. 🤷‍♂️

In the original text it’s there to clarify what “at the start of the combat phase” means.  This article is the first time they have clearly delineated that there are 3 parts of a phase. So the original clause was an attempt to explain that there is a “start of the combat phase” and what it means, specifically that this unit activated before the normal “during the combat phase” with alternating activations. I think they made it pretty clear with this article.

[HollowHills]

I think the fanatic clause works like this. 

Step 1) it triggers at the start of the combat phase so it it's your turn it triggers before your opponents start of the combat phase abilities. 

Step 2) because it says all other units then if you get the choice to trigger it you have to do so before any units with similar abilities. 

An idoneth player who has control of the turn would interrupt at step 1), which makes step 2) redundant. 

[XReN]

You guys are missing the FAQ they dropped with this article: https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/age_of_sigmar_core_rules_designers_commentary_en.pdf

 

[Easytyger]

48 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

So nothing chances.

Well thanks for the clarification, it helps me a lot😁👍🏻

It does change. So on the battle round that High tides is on the Idoneth player will activate all his units first in his turn. On his opponents turn, if that opponent has any unit that attacks at the start of the combat phase, such as in Gristlgore FEC, then those units attack, followed by Idoneth units attack, and then followed by the rest of the opponents units attacking normally.

[Easytyger]

4 minutes ago, XReN said:

You guys are missing the FAQ they dropped with this article: https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/age_of_sigmar_core_rules_designers_commentary_en.pdf

 

Thank you. This is what I was saying.

[Skabnoze]

4 minutes ago, XReN said:

You guys are missing the FAQ they dropped with this article: https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/age_of_sigmar_core_rules_designers_commentary_en.pdf

 

I did miss that.  Thanks.

That said, I think they should still just clean up the wording on those specific abilities so that it lines up.  But this specific clarification was what I was looking for.

Now lets get back to bickering about something else.

My main original complaint is that I don't like the binary choice where the player whose turn it is has everything with the strikes at the start of the phase rather than selecting the first unit and then alternating for any others with that ability.  It probably won't come up a whole lot in actual play - but it still irks me.

[Easytyger]

Oh maybe someone can answer this for me as I do believe it has already been FAQed but I can’t find it.  If one spell or ability contradicts another which one takes precedence? 

So an example I wish they had run through is a unit that has “attacks at start of combat phase” ( uh keyword First Strike? ...) has Soul Cage cast on them causing them to attack at the end of the combat phase. What happens?

From my recollection the Soul Cage effect would take precedence since it occurred most recently or something like that. Can someone clarify and point me to the appropriate FAQ?

[NurglesFirstChosen]

The controlling players unit takes precedent. 

[SwampHeart]

Just now, NurglesFirstChosen said:

The controlling players unit takes precedent. 

Actually this is incorrect per the BoC FAQ. The most recent effect takes precedence. 

[NurglesFirstChosen]

1 minute ago, SwampHeart said:

Actually this is incorrect per the BoC FAQ. The most recent effect takes precedence. 

You’re right sorry, I didn’t read the message correctly. 

[Easytyger]

4 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

Actually this is incorrect per the BoC FAQ. The most recent effect takes precedence. 

Thank you just what I was looking for.

[King Taloren]

So now they just made it so on Idoneth’s turn they can fight before any opponents can use their abilities that are used at the start of the combat phase. Getting around the Sequitors choose your rerolls ability and others...

[Sleboda]

2 hours ago, Kramer said:

Now I still think it doesn’t mean fanatics break the explanation article but if gw does take the spotlight to clarify... than also fix all the warscrolls to match the terminologies. 

And if they are going to change wording on things as recently produced and sold as these newer warscrolls (written with full knowledge of the current rules and play environment) I'll be wanting replacement cards for the "defective" ones.

It's one thing to make adjustments to older & free products. It's another to make changes to something they just sold me.

[Sleboda]

2 hours ago, Skabnoze said:

I don't like the binary choice where the player whose turn it is has everything with the strikes at the start of the phase rather than selecting the first unit and then alternating for any others with that ability

Yeah, that is annoying. Kill Team and even the old Titan Legions/Space Marine systems of Readied/First Fire handled it well.  AoS should be able to also.