Concerns with the development of AOS 2

[Requizen]

31 minutes ago, Jupiter said:

You dont have to reply, I was just posting my current view of the state of development.  The way you respond is quite disrespectful.

Anyone can respond on an open forum. That's kind of the point of an open forum.

20 minutes ago, Ravinsild said:

You'd think everyone would be agreed at how great Chaos Warriors/Knights are then because they can take shields that prevent mortal wounds from any source on a 5+ and that's pretty good. However the common consensus still seems to be that they are pretty trash?  I still think I will buy some for my Blades of Khorne army incase I have to fight Skaven or another army I know really can put out a lot of mortal wounds. Blood Warriors are great but they can't no respite if they get shot!

Warriors/Knights are actually considered pretty solid defensive wise, they're not taken for other reasons. They're designed to be a wear-down unit, upper-middle survivability + middling offense to grind through opponents, but the game is more about hyper fast units blowing things up right now, or walls of expendable units holding objectives and zoning. 

When people say "meta", this is one of the things they mean. Different styles of units have varying levels of success based on what the rest of the game looks like.

[Saxon]

7 hours ago, Requizen said:

1 - This is why they're focusing this year on updating every book to be AoS2. They've said at every preview panel that they're going to be pumping out books fast this year, they're already 4 books in and it's not even April yet. While the imbalance is obvious, I agree, just take a deep breath and wait at least until the end of the year before freaking out about Battletome imbalance.

As to internal imbalance, that's what the GHB is for. We've already seen it with Tzeentch switching from mass Skyfires to other things now after those point changes, and I'm sure we'll see another big change in GHB2019. Every time they've done a points balance pass on new, powerful units, it's ended up fairly balanced.

2 - I see this argument everywhere and I still don't understand it. There's plenty of units that don't deal MWs and are considered really strong to OP, and there are some armies that do basically no MWs and are quite competitive. I have yet to see a boogeyman army that does 15+ MWs per turn without some sort of serious setup and without counterplay. They're far more prevalent now than they were previously, sure, but there's also a lot more ways to reduce damage in the game as well, so it's gone both ways. Mortal Wounding is a good mechanic because it keeps crazy big unkillable units from ruining the game. Nobody wants games where nothing dies for 5 turns.

3 - I somewhat agree here, I don't think every new book needs terrain, and it's obvious that it's mostly just a solid way for GW to make guaranteed sales. It doesn't bother me overly much, since they've been fairly well balanced, so I don't think it's overall a problem. Sylvaneth are the worst offenders, covering the whole board, but that's just kinda their schtick, I guess. 

Charge 3 units of 10 Boingrot Bounderz and on a bang average roll that's 15 MW..... 

[Saxon]

7 hours ago, Jupiter said:

Since Fantasy 6th ED I've been playing and somewhere around early introduction of 8th ED I lost complete interest in the game itself. I have to admit I always like to play with some competitive mindset however I always prefer to play allrounders list (basically taking a few good units and round it off with less optimal but interesting units) so when you pick up a battle its most likely to be interesting.  With the new introduction of AOS I was as most of us sceptical but with the expansion of the new universe and the removal of "jokes" I was hooked again. 

Then came AOS 2 and I was pumped (I have both Death and Stormcast so perfect match), now more than half a year later I'm losing interest again.  I tried to identify this loss of interest and came to the conclusion that the following factors played a role in it: 

1. The imbalance between armies but also within armies (very clear with stormcast old vs new). Before I could pick up any game I knew it would be an interesting bloody battle (with few exceptions), now if you use AOS 1 vs AOS 2 books its not even a game anymore. Just placement of models and removing them. I've tried the new stormcast chamber vs an old book and it was ridiculous. Also tried to play my old stormcast vs new stormcast, same result. Somehow reminds me of the broken books in Fantasy making  tournaments a dying event.

2. The crazy mortal wound mechanic, where at first mw where rare and only available to the most powerful heros or units. If your unit does not have any mw output your not competing anymore. It's so boring to play with and against it, there's zero tactics behind mw just roll dice and remove models. What happened to rend? why is this interesting mechanic so limited to -1 (usually), if armor saves where such an issue why not increase rend. Again this is starting to remind me of the terrible magic phase in 8th ED.

3. Free terrain, I've always disliked the Sylvaneth mechanic of terrain spamming. Guess what now most new armies can do it. Every time I play against free terrain I hate it, it usually gives unfair advantages and sometimes even starts dishing out mw... see point 2. Also in most situations it doesn't even make sense, somehow in every battle the same terrain piece pops up for some reason.

Perhaps AOS 2 has to grow on me like AOS 1 did, but for now it feels like much less interesting game then it was before. 

How are you feeling about the development of AOS?

 

I like the terrain tbh. I've played against Nurgle a fair bit and it adds a tactical challenge, even when playing straight out death matches. Obviously people can be rather unkind with their placement but it's a new dimension you have to deal with. 

I would also agree with the consensus that it also adds to the feel of the board rather than just having random home made terrain about. 

Regarding Point 2, this is one of the major contributors to power creep in my opinion. I have played free peoples and MW are our weakness both offensively and defensively. The older the army, the less likely they are to have counters for MW or the ability to dish them out. I hope the upcoming books for this year help to balance this out a little bit. 

[Overread]

Personally I expect GW to continue with "free terrain" for AoS 2.0. Come 3.0 I think they might shift back to having a points cost for the terrain and perhaps adding one or two options of it to some factions. By that point GW will have "trained" AoS fans to use GW terrain for those features like a regular model. Right now GW is breaking the back on "home made terrain" somewhat (not fully of course). The idea from their end is to generate increased interest and market in their terrain product. 

 

Once they've reached that point they can tone back the pressure somewhat; prevent other options and broaden things out. I also think that both Endless Spells and Terrain are a big push to give AoS some unique identity for itself in the market as a whole; esp since they removed rank and file style fighting as a feature of AoS. 

 

 

[PlasticCraic]

11 hours ago, Requizen said:

Well it really sounds like you probably need a Wizard to unbind, and maybe need to work on positioning your army. If Warp Lightning Vortex ruined your whole game, then you probably set up in such a way that everything important could be caught in one hit, which is definitely something to worry about. Yes, the area is big, but if you're only in range of one base then it's actually not so bad. Just spread out more, and perhaps decentralize your army list a bit.

I agree with a lot of what you have written, but I think this part of the response (while definitely helpful in the sense that you are constructively giving options for dealing with the OP's problem) is perhaps an over simplification.

Skaven have a huge amount of plusses to cast.  It is very easy for them to bludgeon spells through past almost any unbind in the game.  Just throwing in a Wizard is not going to prevent the cast in most cases.

To dispell, you need to roll a natural 9+, which is a 27% chance.  So again, once it's on the table, it's probably going nowhere, even if you include a power caster.

Where it gets really messy is when you combine it with Shackles.  Your only way out of them is flying, but the Vortex prevents you from flying.  It's this interaction that makes me think they really need to look again.

All up you are talking about something roughly the size of a Realm of Battle board, plonked in the middle of the action, pumping out huge numbers of Mortal Wounds across the game, severely limiting movement to the extent of breaking that phase of the game, with an extremely high probability of getting through unbinds and dispells.

Its contribution is completely out of line with its cost of 120 points for the combo, and the interaction with shackles in particular is going to produce the feel-bads for a lot of people, experienced and new gamers alike.

It really needs a complete rewrite (my preference), or pointing out of the game.  It's not just an idiot-trap, it's game changing in a very negative way.

[Dead Scribe]

Really you just have to play what is viable and accept that the older stuff is not viable and shouldn't be considered unless you are ok with losing.  

Mortal wounds are there to speed up the game.  Personally I would like to see more mortal wounds to get games closer to 60-90 minutes.  

If you don't like the internal balance of the game and don't like being made to field certain lists to be competitive, you should probably find another game to play so that your game time is enjoyable for you.

[Overread]

I can't see getting 2K point games down to 60mins as viable option. Mortal wounds coming out too fast would sure speed the game up; but in the end people want to have units on the table for more than a round before they come off again. Otherwise why bother building and painting a great looking army if most of it is leaving the table one or two turns later. 

 

Faster games are smaller games with fewer models such as in skirmish. Otherwise you're just building way too much that leaves the table too fast. Plus fast death rates would play terribly with the duel turn system as well as with the general desire to see tactics and manouvers because you'd have so much damage coming out that the games would fast all just be a brawl. 

 

If anything mortal wounds might actually be getting a little too heavy from some factions. 

[svnvaldez]

18 minutes ago, Overread said:

Mortal wounds coming out too fast would sure speed the game up; but in the end people want to have units on the table for more than a round before they come off again. Otherwise why bother building and painting a great looking army if most of it is leaving the table one or two turns later. 

"Building and painting" this is such a tricky point to table top gaming and will always be a very hard dance for GW. I like my games quick as well but I get that people don't want there brand new toys removed top of T1. I feel like this is a very big issue for casual players dipping their toes into tournaments. I hear a lot of people complaining after losing to "meta" armies. I don't think its the losing that is bothering them more of the fact they spent the time building and painting an army they like and feel like they didn't even get to play with it. At the same time I don't think anyone enjoys a grind fest on top of an objective where both players are rolling dice and not killing anything.

It is tough to find that middle ground.

 

[prochuvi]

9 hours ago, Jupiter said:

 

1. The imbalance between armies but also within armies (very clear with stormcast old vs new). Before I could pick up any game I knew it would be an interesting bloody battle (with few exceptions), now if you use AOS 1 vs AOS 2 books its not even a game anymore. Just placement of models and removing them. I've tried the new stormcast chamber vs an old book and it was ridiculous. Also tried to play my old stormcast vs new stormcast, same result. Somehow reminds me of the broken books in Fantasy making  tournaments a dying event.

2. The crazy mortal wound mechanic, where at first mw where rare and only available to the most powerful heros or units. If your unit does not have any mw output your not competing anymore. It's so boring to play with and against it, there's zero tactics behind mw just roll dice and remove models. What happened to rend? why is this interesting mechanic so limited to -1 (usually), if armor saves where such an issue why not increase rend. Again this is starting to remind me of the terrible magic phase in 8th ED.

3. Free terrain, I've always disliked the Sylvaneth mechanic of terrain spamming. Guess what now most new armies can do it. Every time I play against free terrain I hate it, it usually gives unfair advantages and sometimes even starts dishing out mw... see point 2. Also in most situations it doesn't even make sense, somehow in every battle the same terrain piece pops up for some reason.

Perhaps AOS 2 has to grow on me like AOS 1 did, but for now it feels like much less interesting game then it was before. 

How are you feeling about the development of AOS?

 

My feelings are 100% the same than yours.

 

Aos 1 was great and i could mix any elfs,dwarfs,stormcast amd ironweld and with order alegiance and have a chance to win to any army.

Now with the bargagge that is aos2 is 100% imposible that a army with new battletome loose a game vs armys with aos1 tomes.

 

The balance of aos2 cant be called balance because it is a joke how broken it is.

All our group of friends that played some tournaments in aos1 havent played since aos2 launch any game and we are focusing only in 40k due to how umbalanced is the free sumon and the power creep of the new tomes.

 

So you arent alone,maaaaaany people think as you,aos 2 have been a faill and hope gw balance it,but seeing how broken are the last skaven and flesh eater tome seem wont happen,only go be bigger with every tome released

[SwampHeart]

Just now, prochuvi said:

Now with the bargagge that is aos2 is 100% imposible that a army with new battletome loose a game vs armys with aos1 tomes.

 

This is wrong. 100% inaccurate, provably so - if you're going to actually lie why would any of your opinions on the nature of balance be valid? 

[svnvaldez]

3 hours ago, SwampHeart said:

Now with the bargagge that is aos2 is 100% imposible that a army with new battletome loose a game vs armys with aos1 tomes.

Have a flip through https://aosshorts.com/ for lists and tournament placings. He does a great job documenting lists, packs and placings and is very impartial.  Below took 3rd of out of 50ish at SAGT. There are plenty of Bloodtithe lists that are mixed or AOS1 books. I particularly like Ben Savvas BS army (AOS1). KO almost won Cancon (AOS1). I do agree with you that I wish every AOS1 army was updated to AOS2 as soon as possible but in the mean time AOS1 vs AOS2 is still playable (assuming AOS1 players are clever with list construction). I would argue that all AOS2 vs AOS2 books provide a decent semi "balanced" game for most lists.

[Requizen]

4 hours ago, Saxon said:

Charge 3 units of 10 Boingrot Bounderz and on a bang average roll that's 15 MW..... 

If you're letting 3 units of 10 Bounderz all get more than 1 charge off each, something else has gone terribly wrong in the game. They're made of paper and morale off at the first sign of trouble. Like I said, most big MW swing things require setup or can be played around in one way or another.

1 hour ago, prochuvi said:

My feelings are 100% the same than yours.

 

Aos 1 was great and i could mix any elfs,dwarfs,stormcast amd ironweld and with order alegiance and have a chance to win to any army.

Now with the bargagge that is aos2 is 100% imposible that a army with new battletome loose a game vs armys with aos1 tomes.

 

The balance of aos2 cant be called balance because it is a joke how broken it is.

All our group of friends that played some tournaments in aos1 havent played since aos2 launch any game and we are focusing only in 40k due to how umbalanced is the free sumon and the power creep of the new tomes.

 

So you arent alone,maaaaaany people think as you,aos 2 have been a faill and hope gw balance it,but seeing how broken are the last skaven and flesh eater tome seem wont happen,only go be bigger with every tome released

Thinking that 40k is in any way more balanced than AoS is so laughable that the rest of the (honestly baffling) post is tame in comparison. As someone who plays both, I can't even begin to enumerate the issues that 40k has in general, and why they're far more annoying to play with than AoS.

[Saxon]

1 minute ago, Requizen said:

If you're letting 3 units of 10 Bounderz all get more than 1 charge off each, something else has gone terribly wrong in the game. They're made of paper and morale off at the first sign of trouble. Like I said, most big MW swing things require setup or can be played around in one way or another.

Keep your general close and you can use one of the numerous CP's you have to ignore morale checks  They also move quick and if you play a non-shooty army (death) it can be nasty if you get double turned given their "potentially" excellent movement abilities. 

I don't want to get into semantics I was just giving a tongue in cheek example of an easily possible 15MW a turn. 

[FlatTooth]

I’m not saying I agree with the Doom and Darkness going around BUT “just unbind the Warp Lightning Vortex” isn’t actually that helpful or even realistic.  Skaven can trivially be next to arcane terrain and throwing three dice drop the lowest to summon them. Odds aren’t in favor of stopping that. 

 

Regardless, I get the worry that 8th Ed Fantast is rearing it’s head but I feel like we ought to wait and see what the next few books look like.

[Wraith01]

I love AoS 2.0! But I've loved AoS since the begging. I've grown into the hobby and expanded into other games, like Frostgrave, thanks to AoS.

 

My local store has always had lots of terrain for games but being able to bring my own just adds to the fun. I love that Khorne gets an Altar that just pops out of the ground fully formed. Can't wait to get a terrain feature for Tzeentch and Nighthaunt!

 

[AverageBoss]

4 hours ago, prochuvi said:

My feelings are 100% the same than yours.

 

Aos 1 was great and i could mix any elfs,dwarfs,stormcast amd ironweld and with order alegiance and have a chance to win to any army.

Now with the bargagge that is aos2 is 100% imposible that a army with new battletome loose a game vs armys with aos1 tomes.

 

The balance of aos2 cant be called balance because it is a joke how broken it is.

All our group of friends that played some tournaments in aos1 havent played since aos2 launch any game and we are focusing only in 40k due to how umbalanced is the free sumon and the power creep of the new tomes.

 

So you arent alone,maaaaaany people think as you,aos 2 have been a faill and hope gw balance it,but seeing how broken are the last skaven and flesh eater tome seem wont happen,only go be bigger with every tome released

Tournament results are FAR more diverse than they were in AoS1 (it was usually Tzeentch or Vanguard Wing btw), and contain both 2.0, 1.0, and GA lists. And the summoning for the most part is pretty balanced outside a few outliers, as they are already baked into points costs or allegiance abilities.

And since you all abandoned 2.0 at launch, and have not played a single game since (your words), I don't honestly see how you could make any informed judgement on the overall state of the game, especially one as strong as the game being a "fail".

[Thiagoma]

What bothers me somewhat is the viability of GA armies and the further restriction to allies (1 in 4).

I play Aelves,  so far no Bt. It used to be viable on 1.0 but on 2.0 i have to fight traits, wizards/priests with extra magic, extra artifact lists, temple/enclave/etc and summon.

It is so much stuff that my mixed Order army is no longer competitive.  It reduces the variety of models i see beeing collected/brought to the table.

[svnvaldez]

58 minutes ago, Thiagoma said:

 It is so much stuff that my mixed Order army is no longer competitive.  It reduces the variety of models i see beeing collected/brought to the table.

It totally does. But is that an issue?

I think I can say with confidence that all the Aelves in plastics will get moved to an AOS2 tome and most of your finecast generic heroes are probably safe. Finecast units and things like chariots will be removed or replaced with plastics. The stuff that makes the cut will be decent again and playable, take a look at Skaven and BoC (Even Gloomspite, nothing wrong with using old metal squigs now). I posted a list above. That was based on a dragon, a phoenix, morathi, and dragon princes and took 3rd at a decent sized event. If your okay middle tabling you can drop all the range threats of the KO that are mixed in there and replace them with foot Aelves. That is a Mixed Aelves army that could compete today. Or you can play DoK. They are Aelves as well.

Is that a problem? Like serious question... I'm not trying to be facetious.

And I'm not trying to diminish your frustration that Aelves do not have a proper book yet. It's straight stupid that Gutbusters have been left out of every GH even though it can't possibly be that hard to write in some rules to the GH. IJ don't have a real tome and have only got GH patches. There has been a lot of patch work done in AOS. But it seems like GW has a clear roadmap on what they want to do with AOS2 and so far I think AOS2 has been good for the most part.

Not to be overlay negative but we make out AOS1 to be this game of balance. IMO every event of AOS1 + GH2 and AOS1+ GH3 came down to can you beat / dodge Vwing and Changehost. Mixed Aelves would not have fared any better in that environment.

[Chikout]

Lots of stuff to think about here. 

Khorne will be the 11th aos2 battletome. 

Fantasy battle never had more than 15 factions. So there is strong chance that Aos2 will have more up to date battletomes at the end of the year than at any time in the history of GW fantasy. 

The ghb will be out in the summer. This will be the first meaningful balance patch since aos2 launched as last year's book came to early to have a meaningful impact. 

Generic endless spells and Realm artifacts actually improve balance for the most part. Realm artifacts are available to everyone. 

Non magic armies have suffered somewhat in AoS 2, hopefully some upcoming battletomes or maybe the new forbidden Power will have something. 

As for AoS 1 armies, Slyvaneth,  Tzeentch,  phoenix temple,  bonesplittas,  Slaanesh,  mixed order,  and mixed chaos all have builds that are decently competitive in AoS 2. 

All of those armies have had results in recent tournaments that involved beating several Aos2 armies so it is possible.

[Thiagoma]

15 minutes ago, svnvaldez said:

Is that a problem? Like serious question... I'm not trying to be facetious

I get it, no form of offense taken. 

I think in someway the mixed armies were something really unique to AoS and made possible to tailor several unique armies and combos.  The ally system was an amazing to further mix and match, and i feel those days are sliping away.

Now you can use those (i still do with mixed results) but you go into the match fully aware that you a running with a self imposing handicap, while on 1.0 i was feared with my Order Draconis army (that also became dificult to field with the 1 in 4 ally restriction).

I will certainly miss the days where the rules were simpler and people were on a rampage with mixed creative armies.

Of course we may be surprised with new rules for mixed armies, like unique traits and spells for GA army and we can go bananas again. Who knows?

[Thiagoma]

22 minutes ago, Chikout said:

As for AoS 1 armies, Slyvaneth,  Tzeentch,  phoenix temple,  bonesplittas,  Slaanesh,  mixed order,  and mixed chaos all have builds that are decently competitive in AoS 2. 

All of those armies have had results in recent tournaments that involved beating several Aos2 armies so it is possible

Indeed they can . My last mixed Aelf list got me around the middle of the scoreboard on my last event. 1 win 1 tie and 1 loss to a infinite skink spam Seraphon army.

But we gota be honest that you are handicaping yourself, considering alligeance armies are in a much better spot. 

But who knows what the future holds?  I am not pessimistic about the future of the game, and for now i am starting a small idoneth army to pass the time. Hopefully i can go back to my high elfs soon!

[Kramer]

1. Yeah, is a shame. But I feel the differences are smaller than before. And as said by others GW seems to be working hard to get everything up to norm. 

2. Might be the factions I play with and against but doesn’t seem that bad to me. Even the massive MW dealers have handicaps. Spells can be unbound and failed to cast, fire throwers have a short range and warp lighting cannons with the potential of 12 MW can blow itself up and needs a support hero. 

3. The terrain is also a personal gripe of mine. Beastman carrying their totems with them... sure.. just about. But every flesh eaters court/ bloodhound having a throne or goblins having a massive shrine everywhere that connects to underground tunnels.. not so much.

i don’t really care about the in game effects that can be balanced with rules or maybe points. But what used to be an unique feature for several armies has now lost their flavour for me.

and factions losing their uniqueness is the biggest worry for me. 

[Kramer]

9 hours ago, Saxon said:

Charge 3 units of 10 Boingrot Bounderz and on a bang average roll that's 15 MW..... 

True but that’s 5 mortal wounds a unit, if you want to get them all into the same unit you need some space. And correct me if I’m wrong but don’t they have the random move value? Don’t know if you can compensate that with the allegiance abilities? 

If not it seems quite fair. High risk, high reward. You need two rolls to get that charge of. In you example on 3 units. And then have the space to get as much models in as possible. So there is definitely counter play possible. But full disclosure haven’t played against them yet. 

[Jamopower]

I like the basic rules in the second edition, but as my main army is mixed order based on freeguild units, I don't have any sort of incentive to play the game in anything other than very curated casual environment. My army is just so bad against anything that there's little to do. Luckily there are lots of good alternative fantasy games that have recently released.

It's of course not the game's fault as such, but in my mind there are at least 4 levels of rules in the system at the moment (realms, the allegiance allegiance abilities like different cities where your army is coming, the terrain pieces, the special endless spells) that really should just be similar add-ons as all the content we used to have in White dwarfs for flavour (like the general trait tables etc.). They just add more inbalances and complexity to the game, which is fine in some degree, but having everythin everytime is just lame. Especially as at the same time there are armies in the game that doesn't even have basic allegiance abilities. Of course the counter argument is that you just have to play the armies/units that are good, but that doesn't help too much if someone wants to play Ogres or mix of old High elves that still are thematically perfectly reasonable.

[svnvaldez]

53 minutes ago, Thiagoma said:

I think in someway the mixed armies were something really unique to AoS and made possible to tailor several unique armies and combos.

I loved mixed armies but felt I was in the minority. Now I don’t play them them at all because tome armies are “easier”.

Mixed armies were an amazing way to build my collection and get my friends into the game. I just had to buy a few different units from the different destruction factions and had a strong army and a bunch of different random stuff I liked.

Now I feel pressured to complete each faction such as Bonesplitterz and Gloomspite and buy a few kits I don’t love.