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Isotop

Staff of Focus + Everblaze Comet valid after all?

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Hi mates. Until now I was under the impression that Staff of Focus did not work in conjunction with Everblaze Comet because of the Designer´s Commentary on Malign Sorcery. Here is some reference to begin with:

 

 

Staff of Focus:

" [...] Once per battle, in your hero phase, the bearer can use this artefact. If they do so, add 1 to casting rolls for the bearer until the end of that phase. In addition, if the bearer casts a spell that inflicts any mortal wounds during that phase, add 1 to the number of mortal wounds inflicted on each unit that the spell affects."

(Stormcast Eternals Battletome 2018, page 121)

 

Everblaze Comet:

"[...] After this model is set up, roll a dice for each unit within 10" of this model. On a 1-2, that unit suffers 1 mortal wound. On a 3-4, that unit suffers D3 mortal wounds. On a 5-6, that unit suffers 3 mortal wounds [...]"

(https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Downloads//ENG_Stormcast_Everblaze_Comet.pdf)

 

Designer´s Commentary:

"Q: If a Wizard has an ability that increases the number of mortal wounds inflicted by the spells they cast, does this ability also apply to the abilities of any endless spells that the wizard casts? A: No."

(https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/age_of_sigmar_malign_sorcery_designers_commmentary_en.pdf)

 

 

Since there is a pretty loose definition of the term "ability" in AoS, the Staff of Focus and Everblaze Comet stopped working together after the aforementioned Erratum. Or at least that is what I perceived in the community and on tournaments. If I am dead wrong right here, this thread could still be of some interest for other rules interactions we may struggle with. While answering a completely different rules question, I stumbled over the following FAQ text. Please remember that the content of this question has no connection with the Staff/Comet problem, but it points us towards a stricter definition of the term "ability". Here is comes:

 

"Q: If several abilities are triggered at the same time (at the start of a hero phase, for example), how do you determine the order in which they are used? A: If several abilities can be used at the same time, the player whose turn is taking place uses their abilities first, one after the other, in any order they desire; then the player whose turn is not taking place uses their abilities, one after another, in any order they desire. The same principle applies to any other things – such as command traits or artefacts of power – that can be used simultaneously."

(https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/Core-Rules-and-Bases-Sizes-EN.pdf, page 7, emphasis mine)

 

I bolded and underlined the important part, The question is about "abilities" in particular. After the answer itself its content is then extended to apply to "any other things" as well - so things that are expressly not abilities. Regarding the Comet/Staff problem, artefacts of power are explicitly named as a "non-ability-thing". Therefore the Staff of Focus enhances the Everblaze Comet after all. 

I would like to go into a broader discussion about the implications of this random finding of mine - but I really have to get some sleep at this point. I just hope we can look at this together and work out on which parts of AoS this upgraded definition of "ability" might have an effect. I remember having some discussion in the near past with, among others, @amysrevenge on the topic of what exactly an "ability" is. I hope some of you will be interested and invested in this topic and I am looking forward to tomorrow.

Good Night!

 

 

 

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sometimes things are easier than you think..

Malign Sorcery Page 53

ENDLESS SPELL MODELS

[..] Unless noted otherwise, an endless
spell model cannot be
attacked or
affected by spells or abilities; it is
treated as a friendly model by all
armies for any other rules purposes.[..]

That's why the Staff's +1 MW won't effect the Endless Spell (Model). ✔️

(No matter who's, wich, whatever Ability is used) ;)

 

By the definition of Endless Spells I'm not sure if you get the +1 to cast. 

Malign Sorcery Page 53

ENDLESS SPELLS

If you have an endless spell model
and its warscroll, all WIZARDS
in your army know that spell in
addition to any other spells they
know. [..]

** you should be able to benefit from +1 cast **

ENDLESS SPELL MODELS

Endless spell models are not set up
on the battlefield at the start of a
game. Instead, when an endless spell
is successfully cast
and not unbound,
the model for the spell is set up on
the battlefield.

Edited by Fluttershy
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Ok this looks like a fun can of worms to open up.

I guess this now opens up the question to pose to GW if it does directly affect or not because I was 90% sure this FAQ was in direct answer to the question of staff and comet, just worded to cover everything instead of just the comet.

First item I think would be important to see right now is how many wizards have an on warscroll or an accessible command trait that grants extra mortal wound to spells. I can’t really think of any off hand though that could be an army I've never looked into before. 

This could lead into if the wording is saying that artifacts aren’t considered an ability or if there are two kinds of artifacts of power instead,  (ones that grant abilities and ones that change a hero’s weapons) and GW is just getting into the poor habit of not being informative  enough. Or another case of GW not having the same guy go through and make sure certain wording was used to answer questions to stay consistent 

Edited by King Taloren

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Since this hinges on technicalities and precise wording I'm going to attempt to nip this in the bud.

Artifacts of Power are part of Allegiance abilities and are therefore also abilities.

Core rules, Allegiance Abilities, Types of abilities (pg 15 on the app)

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13 hours ago, Isotop said:

 The question is about "abilities" in particular. After the answer itself its content is then extended to apply to "any other things" as well - so things that are expressly not abilities. Regarding the Comet/Staff problem, artefacts of power are explicitly named as a "non-ability-thing". Therefore the Staff of Focus enhances the Everblaze Comet after all. 

I think the problem is this:  you are confusing a logic problem with a conversational tone.  It would be great if rules were written as logic problems, but they are not.

The sentence you are quoting doesn't conclusively prove to me anything one way or the other, but it suggests to me the opposite of what you are reading.  It could be interpreted to mean that artefacts and command traits are expressly not abilities, but if you look at the context of that question and why they feel compelled to answer it, what they are really saying is "anything that works in the same way as an ability, whether it's part of an allegiance, or an artefact, or a battalion, or written on their warscroll, should be treated the same way when it comes to rule interactions - if we use the word "ability" as a shorthand in a rule somewhere, we really mean to cover all of those things".

Edited by amysrevenge

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19 hours ago, Isotop said:

I bolded and underlined the important part, The question is about "abilities" in particular. After the answer itself its content is then extended to apply to "any other things" as well - so things that are expressly not abilities. Regarding the Comet/Staff problem, artefacts of power are explicitly named as a "non-ability-thing". Therefore the Staff of Focus enhances the Everblaze Comet after all. 

I don't like GW's rule writing..

I guess their statement "other things" is partially right and pretty annoying. Artefacts are "other things" - at the same time they might have Abilities.

If you chose an Artefact [or other thing], your Hero has that Artefact, the Artefact [or other thing] itself has an Ability. It's not the Hero who has the Ability of that Artefact [or other thing].

So you have Abilities of Command Traits, Abilities of Artefacts, Abilities of Battle Traits, Abilities of Units, Abilities of [and so on]..

 

In case of that awful FAQ, wich states a Wizard wich has an Ability to increasy Mortal Wounds of Spells can't use it on Endless Spells, dunno why - so what, the Ability of the Artifact Staff of Focus should be useable on Endless Spells, because it isn't the Wizard who has this Ability, it's the Artifacts Ability used on the Endless Spell. ;)

 

-change my mind- ;)

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It seems you didn't bother to actually read anything I might've referred to, so I'll just share again.

Artefacts of power ARE abilities, just as command traits and other bonuses gained from allegiance abilies. Therefore in this example the staff of focus is an ability the hero has and is covered by the faq.

"TYPES OF ABILITY
 Most allegiance abilities include sets of battle traits, command traits, artefacts of power and spell lores. These are sometimes presented on a table – you can either roll on that table to randomly generate an ability or you can choose one." -Core Book pg. 242

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Yes, I missed your referred Types of Ability, sorry.

Partially I get your point, but how could "any other things - such as command traits or artefacts of power" be any other (different) things if Command Traits and Artefacts are Abilities?

It's hard for me to understand why "any other things" should be the same as GW talked about before.

One step further - so my Spells from the Allegiance Abilities Spell Lores become Abilities too?

 

If Artefacts are Abilities and the Wizard has the Ability but it has no effect on Spells, that are andless spells - god knows why GW stated this - he shouldn't be able to cast an endless spell with +1 - the other part of the same Ability - too!?

 

sorry, it*s late - I'm confused ;)

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new dawn..

My problem is that I don't get how "any other things - such as command traits or artefacts of power" should relate to the previous worded abilities. If it's worded "any other abilities - such as command traits or artefacts of power" ok, but "any other things" is something else for me.

that confuses me ;)

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I see it like @Sedraxis and @Fluttershy in that case.

6 hours ago, Fluttershy said:

One step further - so my Spells from the Allegiance Abilities Spell Lores become Abilities too?

Even there are the terms "Ability" and "Command Ability" on Warscrolls, I have seen the term Ability most of the time as a Synonym for "Special Rule" like it was called in older warhammer editions (or as another Term for example "Model Assigned Rule (MAR) from Dystopian Wars).

In the end Spells and prayers do provide Abilitys as well.

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The confusion just comes from Games Workshops inabilities at maintaining a consistent language through all their rule books. The interior of any given rulebook is all the same generally regarding similar word usage and staying consistent in how the rules are phrased but that all goes out the window once you look at any other book especially when it’s a different author in charge of the battletome. And then you have a completely other set of guys generally writing the FAQS. And depending on who is writing them at the time you can end up with widely differing phrases in the same FAQ sheet after a couple of updates.

The ability of the staff offers a +1 to casting and a plus one to the damage of spells. The FAQ has specifically called out that any abilities that increase spell damage do not work on endless spells. That is all.

They did not say increased casting bonus are invalid or any other abilities that can affect the casting of the spell cannot change the casting result. This has been left alone so some armies can actually cast endless spells, or manage to block them with dispelling it.

One way to think about it is that you aren’t casting a spell but summoning in a wildly power unit that has is not friendly to anyone like an immortal beast without wound count that can only be removed with magic.

Edited by King Taloren

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My arguably late 0.02€: The mortal wounds on an Endless spell are and ability of the model, not an effect of the spell (when an endless spell resolves, set up the model on the battlefield). The model itself has an ability that triggers upon being set up, in the case of the Everblaze Comet, to deal mortal wounds. Since the source of mortal wounds is different from the spell, you do not deal extra mortal wounds.

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