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JackStreicher

Powercreep - Fact Or Fiction

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1 hour ago, JackStreicher said:

Judgements points:

axe: 60

the other two: 40 each 

every priest can try to summon a judgement once per turn (basically if you have 3 priests they each get a rerollable try to summon the axe)

and each priest can do two more prayers in addition though you can‘t pray the same prayer more than once per turn

 

I have re-readed my non-english battletome, you might be almost right, as i readed it again it says that once a priest fails to cast a judgement, none can try to summon it on the same phase. So it can be cast multiple times in same turn, if they all succeed. The moment one fails they cant summon more. Might be error of translation. Thanks!

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10 hours ago, angrycontra said:

And that gristlegore general is strong, but it's just a single hero. You tie it up in melee, shoot it down or focus the rest of the army.

That would depend massively on what army you're playing yourself. As Soulblight I've got nothing that can stand up to the Gristlegore TG in a one-on-one fight and it'll happily eat its own points value several times over through a game if I don't stop it. About the only fighting chance I've got is to jump through hoops with things like the nerfed doppleganger cloak (which will only work on my own turn since the TG strikes at the same time as the cloak goes off, how swell) or landing a combined charge with 2+ really hard hitting units at once, at more than twice the points value, and hope that one of them lives in a good enough shape to still bring it down. And just pray for my opponent's bad luck with the dice, of course.

The Gristlegore TG could probably cost twice as much as it does right now and it'd still be worth it against my army. That it's weak to shooting isn't any consolation when you don't have any. It's a real rock-paper-scissors moment.

 

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I dont know how some people can deny the powercreep.

 

If it would be false u would see dwarfs. Elfs and lizards on top spots. But do we see them? Noo. All we see are last tomes ( fec. Daughters.lon.stormcasts.  skavens and idoneth). Thats enough proff of that.

 

Ofcourse this powrrcreep dont means every unit and rule on the tome be crazy bonkers strong. But all them have decent or strong army abilitys and 1 or 2 op units with some others decent units. So all them have some strong list.

 

Per example idoneths. Their magic spells are prety bad.relics traiths etc. And most of the units in the codex arent great ( i would say they are bad. But i can be biased) but morsar eels are great and tge army rules are great. So they have 1 list that work. But it work really well spaming only this unit and can battle with every codex. So none could say that codex is as powerful as seraphon ond per example.

 

Same can be said about every last tome.

 

Skaven: grayseers are crazy cheap for a 2 cast mage. Verminlords are crazy underpriced. Beells are crazy too and some artillery are bonkers too.

 

Fec: tgey were allready good. Now the free sumoning got retarded. The leader dragon always atacking first is scarier than gods as nagash or alarielle. 

 

Stormcast: everyone allready fought against evocators and sequitors and know how absurdly underpriced they are. Ballista. New standar mage and the meteor spell are really strong too. And that stardrake saving at 2+ rerolling 1s and reflecting as mortals on something like 4+? I dont think that be balanced neither.

 

Dok: wytches must cost 20p more per every 10 and hag 40p more too. Then they would be ok. Rigth now tgey are way too cheap for the dmg they have.

 

Korne: the d6 mortals on priest is totally retarded and should be nerfed asap since they are way too cheap for that and havent any counterplay. Bloodthirst are really cheap too. And those new cavalry doing 10mortals on the charge are nasty too. Oh and new skarbrand do 20 average wounds now. Half mortals other half with -2. Only if he didnt fight on any phase on previous turn.

 

And i could go on. So any last codex have something crazy on it. And old tomes like seraphon orcs or dwarfs havent that. So yeah this powercreep should be toned down i think. We cant be crazy op when our tome comes out. And then be bad for 3-5 years till it gets renewed

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As others have already said, the big divide is between armies with a real Battletome (read Allegiance abilities) and those without. The age of the Tomes itself doesn't matter too much. 

For example, Sylvaneth, literally the oldest Allegiance Battletome, is still good. Same goes for Tzeentch and old Khorne. Beastclaw Raiders and Kharadrons fall off a bit but this is more to deliberate nerfs than due to power creep explicit. 

In my opinion "power creep" is a byproduct and not an explicit goal of the design team. Its just that the team finds new cool things to put into books/armies. For example, Decurion Style formations in 7th edition 40K, faction specific terrain starting with Nurgle, or the introduction of sub-factions with the Kharadron Overlords. 

If GW continues with its current strategy of updating old tomes and balancing with FAQs and the GHs, things should work out alright for most players. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Gecktron said:

As others have already said, the big divide is between armies with a real Battletome (read Allegiance abilities) and those without. The age of the Tomes itself doesn't matter too much. 

Exactly. Early tomes started with allegiance abilities, spell lores, and artifacts.

They then added in conclaves/temples/courts that were free extra rules.

Then terrain.

Then endless spells.

This isn't powercreep per se. It's extra rules for the new books that provide combos and variety. GW isn't excellent at play testing so more rules means more areas that something can slip through the cracks and be a little out of wack. 

However if you play any of the post Nurgle books vs each other the game is fine for the most part. Early tome books like Bonesplitterz and Sylvaneth still have limited builds that can compete and if the nerf bat wasn't taken to Tzeentch/BCR/ and KO I bet they would be in a similar boat to Sylvaneth.

What we need is consistency so we do not have 1 book dominating for a year like Tzeentch did then subsequently nerfed hard. 

GW is doing a better job getting books out at a faster pace and as long as they stay consistent everything will work out imo. The trade off we as consumers probably have to make is better rules and more tome updates means we will get less new armies like KO or Deepkin. We will probably see effort put into the tome, a hero or two, a few endless spells and terrain like we saw with FEC, Khorne, and Skaven.

This is exactly what GW did with 40k when they reset the game with 8th ed. But even with 40k and a bunch of new books we don't have "balance". But its not really powercreep. It's a bunch of books that are similar in rules with some being just more efficient than others.

Edited by svnvaldez

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Yes, it's not a gradual "creep" it's discrete categories with sudden jumps between them, and even then there is VERY wide variance within the categories, so that on the edges there is a bit of overlap.

In general , all AoS2 battletomes are better than all AoS1 battletomes which are better than GHB factions which are better than Grand Alliance non-factions (most notably things like Gutbusters, or Moonclan and Spiderfang pre-Gitz).  It's an analog game so like I said, things at the edges overlap (there are probably a few GHB factions better than Bonesplitters, boo hoo my poor Bonesplitters), but in general that's true.

But there is no real time-based correlation within those categories.  It's all over the place.  Like was said in that wonderful tome-by-tome analysis of the AoS2 books on the previous page - if there was a time-based "creep" then DoK wouldn't still be ruling the roost, as there have been several new tomes since then.

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Posted (edited)

It’s all good. You’re always gonna have stronger factions and weaker factions. It is what it is. What I don’t want to see is trigger happy nerfing. Rock-paper-scissors is by far the better way to go. Which tbh I think we’re close to.

All I would suggest is patience. Once KO get an update and more ranged, plus more to hit debuff armies exist in the world; Lists like dok, fec and pestilence will seem far more balanced. 

Ultimately Aos is still pretty young and tbf the number of factions are still quite limited (relatively speaking).

Be patient. 

Edited by NurglesFirstChosen
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3 hours ago, svnvaldez said:

added in conclaves/temples/courts that were free extra rules.

Then terrain.

Then endless spells.

This isn't powercreep per se. It's extra rules for the new books that provide combos and variety.

Exactly.

Options do indeed have some small bit of power, but for the most part, they are just options - not inherently added power.

As just a casual, easy, surface thought it's easy, and tempting, to go "Aw man, the new book got Thing X that my book didn't get. Obvious power creep!" But that's lazy thinking and doesn't really bother to apply much critical thought.

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I just want to say that mortal wounds are very unfun to play against when my army can't reliably generate any and have little protection against them.

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57 minutes ago, Ironbreaker said:

I just want to say that mortal wounds are very unfun to play against when my army can't reliably generate any and have little protection against them.

To be fair, few armies have any way to protect themselves against mortals wounds, except DOK with a 5++ reroll for most of the army, or fyreslayers/phenix temple, with a 4++ across the board.

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8 hours ago, Sleboda said:

Exactly.

Options do indeed have some small bit of power, but for the most part, they are just options - not inherently added power.

As just a casual, easy, surface thought it's easy, and tempting, to go "Aw man, the new book got Thing X that my book didn't get. Obvious power creep!" But that's lazy thinking and doesn't really bother to apply much critical thought.

Good point.

Worst thing is I feel that GW is kind of applying that thought themselves as well. Trying to give every faction the same cool options with the addition of terrain and unique endless spells to all factions. You can give it a different name all they want but Khorne the hater of all magic got endless spells. (and the same chair FEC got ;) ) 

I do feel GW needs to be careful that factions aren't overpowered by having a different playstyle and options. But they were doing quite well with that. Now they just keep the uniqueness of all factions. But that's mostly a personal gripe and not truly relevant to the discussion, except that Sleboda might have touched on the reason of those choices 

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2 hours ago, ledha said:

To be fair, few armies have any way to protect themselves against mortals wounds, except DOK with a 5++ reroll for most of the army, or fyreslayers/phenix temple, with a 4++ across the board.

The DoK 5++ is only within 7” of the Hag Naar general and the reroll is a 3+ prayer on one unit or only  reroll1s on turn 5. It isn’t that overpowered. If the enemy is that bunched up to get the whole army then you should be able to grab a lot of the objectives.

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Can I point out the new mightly skullcrushers rules.

A battleline unit that in units of 6 models does 6d3 mw on the charge on a 2+. And they have 5 wounds, and 6 base attacks per model on 3+, 3+.  360pts for a unit of 6. 

That is BEFORE any of the many buffs that khorne can add.

Perhaps the biggest power creep though is that they have now got a 3+ save which previously i though was limited to heroes. That single change is a 16% jump in toughness without any of the extra attack prowess that has been added. 

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27 minutes ago, Dead Scribe said:

Stormcast cavalry has 3+ save.

True! Good point. They are 60-80pts more expensive per unit and you only get 2 models rather than 3 however.

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Posted (edited)
57 minutes ago, Laststand said:

Can I point out the new mightly skullcrushers rules.

A battleline unit that in units of 6 models does 6d3 mw on the charge on a 2+. And they have 5 wounds, and 6 base attacks per model on 3+, 3+.  360pts for a unit of 6. 

That is BEFORE any of the many buffs that khorne can add.

Perhaps the biggest power creep though is that they have now got a 3+ save which previously i though was limited to heroes. That single change is a 16% jump in toughness without any of the extra attack prowess that has been added. 

180points for 3?

Im not sure, that doesn’t sound like an overpowered unit.

I mean look at eels with their 3+ unrendable  save (when in cover or charged, meaning most of the time, or always), who also hit like a truck for 40less points. (But probaly will go up in points next ghb)

and 6d3 mortal wounds at the charge, well its better than most Calvary in aos, but we really have to keep in mind that Calvary always was very weak since the beginning of aos, and making this guys who almost cost 200p a bit stronger in the charge, firstly gives them a fluff that makes fully sense and secondly means that the opponent just has to go a bit more strategic, against this guys.

(with which I mean don’t put your Hero at the front especially then when you’re a skavenplayer) 

 

Edited by Skreech Verminking
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Posted (edited)

Eels also have one less wound, no rend on attacks (since we are talking about Ishalen not morsaar) and 2 to 4(because one if the attacks is d3) fewer attacks than skull crushers.

The whole purpose is to be our meat wall since every other unit is much more fragile.

Edited by King Taloren

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Looking at the skullcrushers, I see them as actually being useful now.  I don't see them as OP.  They are strong, but I don't confuse strong with OP.  They were pretty mild before.

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Posted (edited)

Well I’m more or less happy that Gw seems to be interested in updating the Calvary in aos total.

I mean they always where so weak.

I for one never really understood why those lances of the Knights sometimes just didn’t have any rend when in reall live they literally pierced Armour when charging.

making the charges much more devastating, seems for my perspective logical and will make that weak range much better. Now we only have to hope that they won’t stop with khorne but will try and update all of the right now overcosted weak Calvary the highborn, dark aelves, free guilds, etc. Have 

Edited by Skreech Verminking

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It's a cyclic thing, I think at the moment they're bringing all codexes up to a DoK/LoN/FEC Level

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We will see with Adepticon results though if a lot of people are building skaven and FEC armies then that will skew the results as they will have a better chance of taking more top 10 spots since there will be more of them.

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I'd caution people about jumping to conclusions too fast about the Gloomspite and later releases. With Khorne, so 4 books total, the only things that really jump out at me are the Gristlegore  Terrogheist general and Clan Pestilins Plague Monk spam. Even then I'd wait too see how the meta shakes out.

Personally, I think big super killy monsters like Gristlegore (and Skarbrand in the new BOK) are going to make a big splash then fade away.

Game health wise my big concern is alpha strike and super shooty armies. Nothing turns away new players like getting tabled top of turn 1 even if it is balanced in the overall meta/among more experienced players.

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3 minutes ago, prochuvi said:

https://aosshorts.com/sagt-2019-results/

 

Last "big" tournament and we have other example of powercreep as skaven placed 1 and 3 and flesh eater second.

 

No powercreep here sir,all balanced

People also haven't had the chance to react to these new books. Not making a judgement on whether there is a creep, but the stats only tell so much.

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18 minutes ago, prochuvi said:

https://aosshorts.com/sagt-2019-results/

 

Last "big" tournament and we have other example of powercreep as skaven placed 1 and 3 and flesh eater second.

 

No powercreep here sir,all balanced

You mean the events where the books came out right before and no one had adjusted to them?

 

Meta is a bit more complicated than people seem to think it is. It's not just "this book is good therefore it is in the meta", it also has to do with how it builds into the current meta builds, if it's strong enough to make people react to it and change their lists, and if events start using missions that encourage those styles of lists. Not to mention the actual experience of playing against them and knowing how to approach the game.

Gristlegore leaders and Skryre shooting are very strong, sure, but at those events no one had built lists to even think about them. Shooting hasn't really been "meta" for a while, and while there are other fast, killy units, no one is particularly building around stopping one singular hero in the way that FEC Gristlegore requires you to. 

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