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JackStreicher

Powercreep - Fact Or Fiction

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It's always happened. That's part of the game.

Just wait till they circle back to your army and then you'll have a much more powerful force.

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Idk about power creep but I think the increase in MW is due to GW trying to make the game a little faster.

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1 hour ago, JPjr said:

 (b) maybe it gets a lot more confusing when you're dealing with 2000+ pts games, trying to keep track of who has moved etc (though that's a fairly weak argument, I'm happy to concede).

Yes, that is a weak argument.

You already have to keep track during your own turn of which units you moved and which you have not - this has always been the case and we deal with it fine.  In the combat phase we already have to keep track of units for both armies that have already activated and that have not.  Some people just remember, some people mark them with tokens, etc.  Making movement work similarly is just more of the same.

Your point about people being resistant to change is valid though.  There is no right and wrong for that point of view.  I personally think the game could potentially become more interesting and much more tactical.  But that is just my opinion.  In the end, anything like this is for the designers to decide that it makes for the kind of game that they want to make - it is their game after all.

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2 hours ago, Wraith01 said:

It's always happened. That's part of the game.

Just wait till they circle back to your army and then you'll have a much more powerful force.

I play ...6 armies? Most of which are pretty good.

so what you think is not the issue.

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I think the new Khorne book will be a great example of this "power creep" while not actually making the army more powerful. It just brings it in line with current rules and gives them new tools while removing old "cheese".

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5 minutes ago, Sedraxis said:

I think the new Khorne book will be a great example of this "power creep" while not actually making the army more powerful. It just brings it in line with current rules and gives them new tools while removing old "cheese".

Recipe:  Take one Khorne army, add "wholly within".  Result:  masterpiece.

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If you have a big problem with power creep, you're not only playing the wrong game, but probably dealing with the wrong company. While power creep has been a mainstay of GW games basically since they've been putting out separate army books, for about 80% of books, it's a fairly gentle upward slope and shouldn't be a huge issue outside of tournaments. Occasionally there's spikes where a book comes that just have quite a jump and sometimes they make try to avoid creep and end up with a book that might be a bit of a dip in that slope. Power creep isn't a huge issue for armies that creep together, I think biggest issue is when an army gets left behind for an edition or two(or in the case of AoS haven't even gotten a book yet). It doesn't matter how gentle the slope is is you're sitting still while everyone moves forward.

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19 minutes ago, amysrevenge said:

Recipe:  Take one Khorne army, add "wholly within".  Result:  masterpiece.

Sylvaneth could use that.

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4 hours ago, JPjr said:

yeah I was slightly surprised they didn't go the whole hog with alternating movement turns in Kill Team.

I think I'd probably like to see it in AoS but then I can imagine (a) there'd be a lot of kickback from people that have always played it how it is and that style is just so historically embedded & (b) maybe it gets a lot more confusing when you're dealing with 2000+ pts games, trying to keep track of who has moved etc (though that's a fairly weak argument, I'm happy to concede).

 

One of the best thing about GW systems is it’s openly presented as a toolkit rather than the Bible. People totally free to play with idea of alternating movement if they want!

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23 minutes ago, amysrevenge said:

Recipe:  Take one Khorne army, add "wholly within".  Result:  masterpiece.

You need to add a splash of “Unmodified 6”’s for it to truly hit the spot

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I think Powercreep does exist, but it is a creep and not a cascade where each book is more powerful than the last. If you look at the release schedule for Battletomes it doesn't match the list of top performing armies whether in perception, measured by the Honest Wargamer stats or by whatever metric you use. Skaven, Flesh Eater Courts and Gloomspite will all be more powerful than most of the earlier books, but it doesn't follow that they will be better than all of the books that were released before them. If that were the case then there wouldn't have been endless complaints about Daughters of Kaine who have had, if memory serves, four releases since they came out (Beasts of Chaos, Stormcast Eternals, Nighthaunt and Idoneth Deep Kin).

That's not to say that the books since DOK haven't been good, but they've not been way better as the inference within this thread has been about Skaven, FEC and GSG. Let's also not forget that Sylvaneth continue to show well and the recent BoC list that's won a couple of events is arguably better in a Disciples of Tzeentch build (It's being tested by it's creator as such at the moment).

I think a bit of perspective is needed and that can only come with time. It's entirely possible that one of the three new books will jump to the top of the rankings, possibly even all three, but my suspicion is that LON and DOK will remain the strongest armies (at least until GHB 2019), with LON looking like a particularly hard counter to the current Gristlegore bogeyman and possibly FEC in general.

9 hours ago, jake3991 said:

I whole heartily agree with the concept of power creep, it's definitely more prevalent in the most recent 3 books (FEC, shaven and khorne).  If you ask me its due to the age old problem of GW not play testing at all or using good players to play test.  If your play testers are not the kind of people (which they are clearly not) that can find broken combos in a book then what is the point?  All in all it seems the lack of play testing combine with a global approach to balance has created a lot of "non game games," it's very rock paper scissors at the moment.  

Just a point on the above. GW have internal and external playtest teams, with the external team in the UK including multiple large tournament winners, Masters champions and number one ranked players. I have less knowledge of the US team, but there is at least one serial winner on the US circuit that I've heard of and I'd imagine many others. These are literally the people that find the broken combos and then smash tournaments with them. It's not a perfect system, they'd all work full-time for GW if it was, but we also don't get to see the full extent of their balancing until way further down the line, as we have to assume that they are testing Battletomes that are at least 6 months away from being released and probably more like 12-18 months away.

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Just an additional question. Not to spark the fire or anything ;) Just curious to the responses. 

To me it seems very reasonable power creep happens. New models, rule of cool, match the rules to that cool. Now the models are bit more powerful that the old 'norm'.

But is there any truth to the argument it's on purpose to drive sales. Personally I don't think so due to the stormcast interviews and the view of the making process it left me. But I do like to hear thoughts that oppose my own assumptions. So hit me. Could power creep be on purpose to drive sales?

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Nos said:

One of the best thing about GW systems is it’s openly presented as a toolkit rather than the Bible.

While that is a nice thought, I think fact of the matter is the vast majority of warhammer (main game, I'm sure theres more leeway with specialist games) players play the rules as is. Especially if they rely on pick up games.

I mean I LOVE fan rules, I like writing them.

But no doubt warhammer is primarily played like it is a video game with online patches. Once it goes one way, it doesn't go back. Otherwise I'm pretty sure most people would have ignored Chaos Space Marines 4th edition Codex in favor of the 3.5 book.

Edited by kenshin620
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Yeah.  Houserules are fine... kept in your house.  With your friends etc.  But when they come out into the shop thats where I see trouble pop up.  Playing non standard interpretations of the rules out in the public venue causes confusion and some people get really hostile about it.

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54 minutes ago, Dead Scribe said:

Yeah.  Houserules are fine... kept in your house.  With your friends etc.  But when they come out into the shop thats where I see trouble pop up.  Playing non standard interpretations of the rules out in the public venue causes confusion and some people get really hostile about it.

I mean it’s a social game. I wouldn’t expect anyone to enforce anything outwith the basic rules without someone’s prior consent.

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2 hours ago, Kramer said:

Just an additional question. Not to spark the fire or anything ;) Just curious to the responses. 

To me it seems very reasonable power creep happens. New models, rule of cool, match the rules to that cool. Now the models are bit more powerful that the old 'norm'.

But is there any truth to the argument it's on purpose to drive sales. Personally I don't think so due to the stormcast interviews and the view of the making process it left me. But I do like to hear thoughts that oppose my own assumptions. So hit me. Could power creep be on purpose to drive sales?

No, it’s nonsense. If GW wanted rules to drive sales then their model would be substantially different and their most expensive products would be undeniably powerful on the Tabletop, and that’s just not the case.

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Or they change up whats powerful, not based on whats necessarily new, but just to keep changing up whats powerful because that would drive sales.

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I feel like GW doesn't need rules to drive sales, at least these days. I'm not sure either of the new 40k armies in the Shadowspear box are going to light the tournament world on fire, but there sure seems a lot of hype about the designs and character of the models. I've seen people want to play Wood Elves in 7th Edition, so I really think model preference and design drive sales the most.

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Reading the thread about the new Khorne book has been interesting.  It looks like GW have toned down some of the stronger stuff,  improved some of the weaker stuff and added in some improved anti magic. Essential they have made a better balanced book.

The result has been a bunch of players unhappy with the new rules. 

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Not too big a surprise there. For the most it looks pretty good. Khorne really didn’t need much in the first place outside of a few touch ups with points and making summoning a little tighter. Think most people are getting too hung up on certain things without reading exactly what it will take to get it to happen. 

”OMG Skarbrand has a 16 mortal wound proc!” On a 6 that can only happen if he can survive and get his slow non-flying behind into the enemy.

”Omg the axe can do 9 mortal wounds” on a 5+ summon roll (possibly rerolling)that only has 14” threat range and could vanish at the end of the turn without making an impact on the game. (I find the skulls just a little scarier though I would love to see someone park those babies on top of Nagash and laugh as he forgets all his spells)

 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, King Taloren said:

”Omg the axe can do 9 mortal wounds” on a 5+ summon roll (possibly rerolling)that only has 14” threat range and could vanish at the end of the turn without making an impact on the game. (I find the skulls just a little scarier though I would love to see someone park those babies on top of Nagash and laugh as he forgets all his spells)

 

4+ rerollable with the Altar -> 75% success Chance. D3 to every unit it moved across (ouch)

if it disappears you can summon it again, win win.

the prayers are stupid since the opponent can‘t do anything about it.

the skulls have a normal chance to procc (16%) but can oneshot all mages (srsly?) again: you can‘t do anything about it because buffed up prayer.

Edited by JackStreicher
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, JackStreicher said:

4+ rerollable with the Altar -> 75% success Chance. D3 to every unit it moved across (ouch)

if it disappears you can summon it again, win win.

the prayers are stupid since the opponent can‘t do anything about it.

the skulls have a normal chance to procc (16%) but can oneshot all mages (srsly?) again: you can‘t do anything about it because buffed up prayer.

No it is a 5+. It is right there on the warscroll. Here read it.

AoSKhorneJudgements-Mar13-WrathAxeWarscr

AoSKhorneJudgements-Mar13-SkullAltarWars

The Skull Altar does not provide a +1. Only a reroll.

And summoning again is same as endless spell. It’s not a big deal cause you can do the same.

The skulls can do D6 to all wizards within 12” of the skulls if you roll an unmodified 8.

 

Edited by King Taloren

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Posted (edited)

Well powercreep will probably always be in the game.

Still it seems like Gw is trying to at least get most of the armies up that level, meaning that if we’re lucky all of the armies are somewhat good against each other.

Also as it is standing aos isn’t the only tabletopsystem that has a powercreep problem.

Have a look at 40k and you’ll notice that for some reason the eldars are infesting the whole universe.

And  have a look at the space marine or chaos space marine and you’ll notice that they are the much more expensive version of  cultists or guards , while beeing much more useless then them.

Edited by Skreech Verminking

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, King Taloren said:

No it is a 5+. It is right there on the warscroll. Here read it.

AoSKhorneJudgements-Mar13-WrathAxeWarscr

And summoning again is same as endless spell. It’s not a big deal.

The skulls can do D6 to all wizards within 12” of the skulls if you roll an unmodified 8.

 

True the Altar does not give +1 to prayers, still rerollable (34% chance)

 

“it‘s the same as endless spells“

it‘s not, you have to burn a casting attempt to ban it. The „it might despell itself“ is a big pro.

Edited by JackStreicher

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It’s the same as in if the spell is dispelled they just reloaded you endless spell casting gun.

And so far Khorne has no way that they have shown to be able to remove an endless spell once it is on the table so they have the same problem as you with the prayers.

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