Powercreep - Fact Or Fiction

[Forrix]

Yes but its inconsistent.  As a Nurgle player I just feel left behind by most of the newer battletomes, especially when it comes to spell casting. Spamming Blightkings and hoping my opponent can't put out -1 to hits is about all Nurgle has going for it. Trying to get off Blades of Putrefaction is a joke in today's meta. That said, Nighthaunt are another pretty new army that if anything feels underpowered. At least when taken as Nighthaunt and not part of Legions of Nagash.

[Dead Scribe]

They aren't going to move from the release schedule where they do books over time, so I'd say don't play nurgle until they get an updated book that is designed around this new mortal wound / summoning reality that are the new armies.

[EMMachine]

2 minutes ago, Dead Scribe said:

They aren't going to move from the release schedule where they do books over time, so I'd say don't play nurgle until they get an updated book that is designed around this new mortal wound / summoning reality that are the new armies. 

Hm, wasn't it Nurgle that introduced the new "summoning reality" because it was the first army using the summoning points.

[SwampHeart]

17 minutes ago, EMMachine said:

Hm, wasn't it Nurgle that introduced the new "summoning reality" because it was the first army using the summoning points.

Sort of? It was released in that in between time of books that were ready for 2.0 but 2.0 wasn't out. They had a summoning mechanic rather than summoning spells but they still had to pay reinforcement points when the book was introduced. 

[Dead Scribe]

Nurgle's summoning ability is pretty weak compared to the later books.  They certainly can't do anything near what FEC can do.  So yes they can summon, I do not consider nurgle on par with the later books in what they can do summoning wise, and nurgle does not have a great mortal wound capability either.  I consider them to be pretty gimped right now that I would not consider running them until they got a newer book that lets them either summon a lot or do a lot of mortal wounds or something to keep up.

[Chickenbits]

Suprised to see so many saying "saves don't matter anymore, too many mortal wounds". I guess you guys don't face a lot of Fyreslayers  😛 Also, I prefer brutal games were models fly off the board, it makes for quicker and more intense games. 

[Chikout]

1 hour ago, Forrix said:

Yes but its inconsistent.  As a Nurgle player I just feel left behind by most of the newer battletomes, especially when it comes to spell casting. Spamming Blightkings and hoping my opponent can't put out -1 to hits is about all Nurgle has going for it. Trying to get off Blades of Putrefaction is a joke in today's meta. That said, Nighthaunt are another pretty new army that if anything feels underpowered. At least when taken as Nighthaunt and not part of Legions of Nagash.

Really? If mortal wounds are becoming more prevalent again , disgustingly resiliant becomes more valuable and the witherstave item is a great Terrorgheist counter.

[EMMachine]

20 minutes ago, Dead Scribe said:

They certainly can't do anything near what FEC can do.

Hm, you have to spam Ghoulkings and Archregents because each one can only summon 1 unit.

The chaosgods can do more without spamming the highest leaders of the faction.

[Requizen]

22 minutes ago, Chickenbits said:

Suprised to see so many saying "saves don't matter anymore, too many mortal wounds". I guess you guys don't face a lot of Fyreslayers  😛 Also, I prefer brutal games were models fly off the board, it makes for quicker and more intense games. 

Yeah same here. I quit 7th edition 40k because the games were all about Deathstars, Invis, and free vehicles. Every game was a slog where nothing died until one person failed casting or rolled hot. 

I'd much rather have explosive games where the units designed to kill things actually kill things. 

Plus, many of these crazy MW melee monsters can be slowed or stopped by proper list building, movement, and spacing. I've yet to see one that truly cannot be played around in some way. 

3 minutes ago, Chikout said:

Really? If mortal wounds are becoming more prevalent again , disgustingly resiliant becomes more valuable and the witherstave item is a great Terrorgheist counter.

This is super true. Nurgle is an army meant to slow down damage, which is equal parts frustrating and interesting. 

[chord]

Power creep is there, which I understand it helps sell newer armies.

I really dislike the MW proliferation.  I'd like to see MW's go back to be something more rare. 

[SoulBlightDryad]

A game with rules. Yes there is power creep. Regardless the game, regardless the company. Enjoy the ride, have fun, paint models, play the game.

[Dead Scribe]

Lets poll it!

[Requizen]

There's no need to poll, of course Powercreep is a thing. In a game like this - asymmetrical, large amount of unit options, huge variance is the style and function of said options - any small shift or addition can send cascading changes to the game. And armies getting rules they did not have previously is much larger than a small shift, not to count adding new models and units. 

The question you need to ask is - is powercreep really a problem as long as it's creeping consistently? Powercreep is terrible in a game where only one army gets updated with new hotness and everyone else has to wait years, like we saw with old WHFB and 40k. But now that they're doing faster releases, and doing full sweep balancing via Big FAQs and GHB, when power creeps it's usually most armies that benefit (or at least, most that are currently up to par via Battletome). I don't personally think that's bad.

[Sedraxis]

And in the end, it's not really all that much powercreep when you look at it from a broader perspective. A GH 2017 Tourneylist with their rules could match up against todays lists just fine.

It feels more like in the narrative. The great powers and shift over time and units and factions rise and fall. I think it's a great example of game design.

[JackStreicher]

3 hours ago, King Taloren said:

I see the axe being priced about 50-70pts. It’s about as powerful as the Pendulum and about as good with its movement though the needing to roll to deal the mortals before the damage gives a 1 in 6 failure.  So I can easily see it being priced similar.

 Since they worded Skatbrand as just rolling a dice i would guess they removed Carnage’s attack profile unless it’s become an additional damage on top of his regular attack with the weapon.

Imo it is way better than all spells for 100 points. Plus you can summon it in a rerollable 4+ ...

 

NW spam is like playing the game just by yourself. Your opponent can‘t do anything about it (maybe he gets a 6+). In the end you MW and remove enemies, there‘s just no interaction.

(I‘ve already lost 3 players because they hated the MW spam - they went back to 40k...now I am the only AoS Player in a 80km Radius ...)

[Requizen]

3 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Imo it is way better than all spells for 100 points. Plus you can summon it in a rerollable 4+ ...

 

NW spam is like playing the game just by yourself. Your opponent can‘t do anything about it (maybe he gets a 6+). In the end you MW and remove enemies, there‘s just no interaction.

(I‘ve already lost 3 players because they hated the MW spam - they went back to 40k...now I am the only AoS Player in a 80km Radius ...)

What MWs can't you do anything about? Ranged ones are generally limited and tied to relatively squishy, expensive units, and melee ones can be blocked with chaff or other forms of screening. 

You might need to change lists to deal with them as they get more prominent, but that's the nature of any game. No list stays viable forever, and certain builds work better in certain metas. 

Also lol, like 40k is any better about things not dying. Oh sure, pure MWs are less, but the amount of shooting and Alpha Strike damage most 40k lists can do is staggering compared to AoS. I'd rather lose units to MWs in melee than just watch a Knight-Castellan light up half my army from the other side of the board.

[King Taloren]

32 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

Imo it is way better than all spells for 100 points. Plus you can summon it in a rerollable 4+ ...

 

NW spam is like playing the game just by yourself. Your opponent can‘t do anything about it (maybe he gets a 6+). In the end you MW and remove enemies, there‘s just no interaction.

(I‘ve already lost 3 players because they hated the MW spam - they went back to 40k...now I am the only AoS Player in a 80km Radius ...)

It’s actually a rerollable 5+ only within 8” of the altar. And then they have rules that on a roll that we don’t know yet can disappear at the end of turn.

[Forrix]

1 hour ago, EMMachine said:

Hm, you have to spam Ghoulkings and Archregents because each one can only summon 1 unit.

The chaosgods can do more without spamming the highest leaders of the faction.

In my experience with Nurgle you'll be summoning about 20 Plaguebearers per game unless you specifically get into a summoning build aka Horticulous's battalion. With Khorne you won't be summoning because Bloodtithe is better spent moving in the hero phase (especially your opponent's). I don't play Slaanesh but I have heard Slaanesh summoning is very strong at the moment. I have no real knowledge of how Tzeentch summoning is off the top of my head.  Granted, I think the real strength of FEC is going to be in the double pile-in and buff stacking (depends on how reliably they can get the spells off)  but I would say FEC summoning is stronger than Nurgle or Khorne, especially since you can bring them in on the border edge.

[Forrix]

2 hours ago, Dead Scribe said:

Nurgle's summoning ability is pretty weak compared to the later books.  They certainly can't do anything near what FEC can do.  So yes they can summon, I do not consider nurgle on par with the later books in what they can do summoning wise, and nurgle does not have a great mortal wound capability either.  I consider them to be pretty gimped right now that I would not consider running them until they got a newer book that lets them either summon a lot or do a lot of mortal wounds or something to keep up.

I'm running a Thricefold in an April GT for funsies then I am pretty much planning on shelving my Nurgle army, at least for tournament play. Depending on how the GHB 2019 goes I could see Nurgle making a big come back though. A lot of Nurgle stuff's is pretty expensive so there's room for big point reductions (fingers crossed for 300 point GUOs and 180 point Pusgoyles). More shooting units like the Plagueclaw Catapault could make Plaguebearers's negatives to shooting actually worth something (currently almost no one shoots and if they are they're shooting your heroes).

I think part of the reason for the increase in Mortal Wounds is because so many things have gotten resistant to them. Nagash and Hag-Nar both laugh at MWs.  I will point out that Skarbrand doing MWs is actually kind of a nerft since it used to be wounds that couldn't be negated by anything. So no more one-shotting Morathi. Also, if Skarbrand remains a 14 wound 4+ save 400 point monster with 8 inch move and no flying I doubt he'll see use outside of narrative games.

[SwampHeart]

2 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

(I‘ve already lost 3 players because they hated the MW spam - they went back to 40k...now I am the only AoS Player in a 80km Radius ...)

Weird play group - 40k has a more potent alpha strike right now with less interactivity due to shooting. But I guess it feels better because you sometimes get to roll dice? 

[Dead Scribe]

40k and AOS are both pretty reliant on just removing models, so leaving AOS for 40k because of MW spam seems kind of pointless to me.  

As has been mentioned, you just have to start being comfortable with changing armies and lists regularly.  Thats the nature of the game.

[JackStreicher]

15 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

Weird play group - 40k has a more potent alpha strike right now with less interactivity due to shooting. But I guess it feels better because you sometimes get to roll dice? 

🤷🏼‍♂️

Dunno, they just complained that the MW Spam put them off too much also they see it as a lack of creativity that each and every spell deals a multitude of MWs instead of more interesting effects.

[Mutton]

Remember when people were calling foul on Thundertusks doing 6 mw's on a 2+? I'd say yeah, power creep is a thing.

Mortal wounds in general are becoming too prevalent everywhere. Too many abilities aimed at one-shotting models off the board. It's simply not fun play. The game is veering into pure blitzkrieg play, without as many options for defensive strategies. But I also don't think everything should have shrug/ward saves, because then everything becomes homogeneous.

[Requizen]

3 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

🤷🏼‍♂️

Dunno, they just complained that the MW Spam put them off too much also they see it as a lack of creativity that each and every spell deals a multitude of MWs instead of more interesting effects.

Only the bad spells. The best spells in the game are buffs or debuffs. They may have incidentally d3 MWs, but if d3 is a lot of damage... lol.

[Bohemond]

7 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

🤷🏼‍♂️

Dunno, they just complained that the MW Spam put them off too much also they see it as a lack of creativity that each and every spell deals a multitude of MWs instead of more interesting effects.

This is why I like LoN’s spell-lore.