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Looking at starting an army, want thoughts


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As title. I'm thinking of starting with the DoK, but I have a couple of thoughts/reservations and I wanted to express them, see if I'm making a mounting out of a molehill or not. 

Reason (for me anyway) to play DoK:

-pro-murder (I also like Khorne)

-keen models

-can do all phases of the game

-not a one-hit wonder (see: IDK first strike), should be at least OK for long-term play vs. meta changes

Cons:

-Order outnumbers everyone else combined

-Not a lot of variety (e.g. Khorne is similar in play but has > x2 the options)

-Only 2 battleline (I don't include blood sisters as you need a medusa general, which I'm not sure I'm keen on)

-I know they're awesome now for meta but I can see them getting very little love in the future since they're not one of the "big" armies (LoN, SCE, Chaos Gods), they can't summon, they're glass cannon but can be charged (see: IDK first strike) quite easily so I can see one nerf/denerf and all of a sudden DoK is the new BR

Thoughts? Am I overthinking this? If curious, I have not excluded NH (I love the all-ghost idea and was thinking of something similar in WFB when hexwraiths came out but there were no etheral core), BR (even if they stink meta-wise, but would like to integrate them with ogors if only for some warm bodies on the field) or a Chaos specific-God army but I don't have my heart set on one in particular (all Gods would give you lots of both mortal and daemon options but armies play a little focused, which could be good or bad depending on your point of view). 

Edit: I'm willing to look outside the box too e.g. playing an army I've not mentioned, I'm not fixated on just what I put in the previous paragraph, those are just my leading candidates is all.

Edited by Bojigwe
one last thought
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I've been struggling a bit with picking a new army as well.  I'd recommend figuring out how much time you expect to spend painting vs playing the army.  That might inform some of your other decisions.  For me I want an interesting model to paint, something that fits my play style, and a solid basing/army theme.   You're aware of the possibility of a DoK nerf with the next GHB so that's good.  I expect an adjustment over the nerf hammer though.  Finding a counter to the new hotness rather than chasing it is always fun to.

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You can never pick an army for how effective it will be in the long term.  GW games are prone to shake-ups from edition changes, army book rewrites, rules errata, point cost adjustment (General's Handbook, errata, etc), new army releases, etc.  If you play any army long enough you will invariably end up playing with them being fairly good and some level of bad.  I cannot think of any army in either 40k or Fantasy that was not somewhat poor at some point in time.

If regular frequent updates to the army is something you are very much interested in then you are pretty much stuck with Space Marines in 40k and so far Stormcast Eternals for Age of Sigmar.  Those 2 armies are regularly updated more than any other.

Honestly, I suggest you find an army where you like the general playstyle and models and just go for it.  If you like Daughters of Khaine for reasons other than their current strength in the overall meta then just go for it and pick them up.  If you desire a top-tier army then understand that you will likely have to regularly shift your army as the meta fluctuates and the various armies go up and down in power level.

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I agree with Skabnoze.

The type of gamer who focuses purely on the power of an army tends to be at the competitive end and they tend to chase the meta somewhat. They are likely to commission and buy a prebuilt and painted army/or are very fast builders and painters to a good basic tabletop standard. This lets them buy the latest and greatest and when that army starts to faulter they swap it for another strong one. So they flip armies with the big meta changes - selling and trading. There are expensive and efficient ways to do this (eg getting large armies off ebay or personal trades/army swaps). 

 

However if you want to build an army and like the theme, lore and style long term then go with what you like. You will spend HOURS just building and painting before they even see the tabletop. 

 

Daughters of Khaine are a newer force and are smaller in model range. Khorne has a lot more but then they are a much older army - though saying that Slaanesh is nearly as old and hasn't anywhere near the same diversity of models. A lot depends on what the GW design team focus on and want to make as well as management and release pressures. Given a few more years DoK might well flesh out to a larger and more diverse army line. Only time will tell. 

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I do want to add on the modeling front, those snake ladies are a thing of beauty and are a real visual joy when you see them well painted on the table.

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With Khorne getting a new battletome very very soon I'd recommend waiting and seeing how it turns out before picking.

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It wasn’t mentioned, but the biggest Con for DoK is the real world price for GW models.  Yes, this is an expensive hobby, but $60 for a box of 10 battleline infantry is nuts.

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I think aside from the price tag, DOK are a strong army overall. The units have some of the best synergies with buffs and ability mechanics, which leads to them placing high in tournaments consistently. Although this is all just speculation, but most expect them to be nerfed in the upcoming 2019 (again this is speculated, no confirmations). Its unlikely where DoK get the Kharadron Overlord treatment, where they were king and then became how they are now, but its something to be mindful of. If you are not in a hurry, I would recommend just getting a smaller army (maybe up to 1,000 points) and waiting a few months before fully committing. It is less likely for the newer armies/tomes to experience a drastic change, so I'd recommend any of the more recent tomes (Flesh Eater Courts, Skaven, Gloomspite Gitz, Beasts of Chaos, SCE (maybe), NH), would probably be less likely to face upcoming changes. Most armies that were released in AoS haven't gotten new units since (apart from SCE I guess), so I wouldn't expect DoK to get any new units anytime soon.

At the end of the day, you'll be looking at months of work to be put forth into an army, and it's quite easy to become fatigued if you don't like the aesthetics/feel of the army. As such, I'd recommend planning accordingly (i.e. watch a few battle reports on youtube. Although most battle reports don't field competitive lists, they are great at showing a wide breadth of units from a faction.) Also, I'd check with your FLGS or friends on what type of competitiveness you'd be playing at (my FLGS is mostly casual players, so we tend to field armies similar to most youtube batreps as opposed to tourney lists). This can make quite a big difference in the longterm play experience imo. 

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As an Idoneth player I take offense to the “one hit wonder” comment. We do have a very strong  turn 3 but it isn’t the only place we are powerful. It’s just the most obvious one. They are a very position heavy army and requires a good head around how to outmaneuver your opponent and prioritize your targets.

DoK is also a fairly heavy maneuver style army. Requiring good placement and judgement of priorities. You need you Hag Queens in range for brew, plus making sure they stay in range if you run wytches to give the bonus attack. Keeping your squishy hero’s in range to buff but out of range of getting squashed by heavy ranges attacks and magic. They are a really strong army but yeah it’s also a very expensive one that basically half the cost of DoK is a complete army of almost any other faction.

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Thanks all for thoughts...

Note: I am not worried about meta at all, not sure if I got that across but if I didn't I apologize. 

@GlanceOnASix I agree, serpents look nice 

@Forrix I might but I don't want to chase the latest BT either...debating

@Fairbanks I agree but nothing is 'cheap' either *shrug*

@King taloren as far as I know all armies have to be cognisent of  positioning, and from what I can see a lot of armies throw minions forward and leave heroes at the back (I could be wrong though).

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Leader positions varies on the army. Some leaders are ranged and some close combat. 

 

For Daughters of Khaine they are close combat focused and most want to be following the units as well; so that they can give buffs and auras to them. Eg Witch Aelves get a bonus attack if they are within so many inches of a leader.

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Also certain armies are more sensitive to bad positioning over others. A unit of plaguebearers aren’t going to be as in bad shape getting charged by bloodletters as witch aelves would be in same position from moving in he wrong place. Still going to hurt but not as likely to be wiped off the field in one attack. DoK and Idoneth require slightly more finesse because of the fragility of most units. even the most durable in both factions can fall apart faster than most durable units in other factions. And also the buffs that heroes give their respective units require good positioning. Idoneth fortunately have the ability that ranged weapons cannot target your backline.

 

Most of DoK heroes are 5+ 6++ 5 wounds and can be easily targeted if they are caught on the wrong place. Yet most of time you want them at least 8-9” away from your units or closer because of the buffs and if you want to keep those buffs for charging in the combat phase even closer. Especially Hag Queens with the 3” range hagbrew which is hero phase and keeping that with certain units is essential to the army for the fearless buff as well as the rerolls.

Edited by King Taloren
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  • 2 weeks later...
On 3/5/2019 at 7:13 PM, Bojigwe said:

-pro-murder

I mean, this is probably the first thing I look for in an army.  Like I ask the army what are you pro and if they say they are pro puppies, I pass.

Sorry, that is just my favorite point I've ever seen.  

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17 hours ago, SeiaDoon said:

I mean, this is probably the first thing I look for in an army.  Like I ask the army what are you pro and if they say they are pro puppies, I pass.

Sorry, that is just my favorite point I've ever seen.  

This wasn't trying to be funny actually (although I concede I did find it funny), it's an adage From Bill Belichick (disclaimer: I hate the Patriots but love Belichick). He says, "Don't look at what your players can't do, look at what the can do", and I agree 100%. Ignoring all the things the DoK can't do, one thing they do very well is wipe models off the board. Although other armies can do the same and/or similar things (see: IDK first strike), the DoK do it with zeal, and they seem to like their work. A happy employee is a happy army. 

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You should play an army you can relate with in terms of personality and playstyle. DoK is expensive and painting 70 Witches is no joke. You definitely need dedication and some degree of fanaticism to paint through.

I started DoK right after the battletome came out and before they made their debut in the competitive scene.  Them being strong in competitive play is a plus but I generally enjoy the entire theme of women empowerment and equality.

I mean look at Morathi. This sasha fierce ****** escaped Slannesh, got rejected by Sigmar, Nagash and Malerion and yet still managed to forged an empire.

  • She lent her knowledge of Slannesh to enable the other aelven heros to capture and extract souls from Slannesh. Without her, Malerion and Tyrion will still probably be stuck in Warhammer Fantasy range of models for the next 3 years 😅
  • Malerion looked down on her and gave her the darkest plot of land which she founded Hag Narr and is now owning the meta 😎
  • Her fraction is also fanatically loyal to her unlike a certain... cough... I don't have a clue why my children abandon me sob story 😏
  • The next closet female powerhouse is Alarielle who is basically a princess whose problems got solved because a big strong man showed up.... ughh 🙄

Lore wise, Morathi and the Daughters of Khaine are actually doing pretty well. They defend their realm properly and  travel to other realms to help other order fractions. These ladies are actually pulling their weight in the mortal realms so I doubt they will be nerfed into oblivion.

YJGt.gif

Edited by InSaint
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