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ShadowSwordmaster

The Problem of the Free Peoples and the Freeguilds in Age of Sigmar

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21 hours ago, ShadowSwordmaster said:

"Over time, these melanges of races and creeds have intermingled, forming new alliances and factions thirsty to prove themselves or to avenge their predecessors. An army or garrison from a Sigmarite city may include a dozen different kinds of footsoldiers, knightly orders, beast riders, proven militia and city guard, all with their own uniforms, traditions and rivalries. .”

It does mention other races as to imply it is not just humans in the ranks of the Freeguilds, but the problem comes back that it is still humans that make up the ranks of the Freeguilds.

You're making a big assumption about what they mean by "races". Could just as easily be taking about human ethnicity.

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Dai-Mongar said:

You're making a big assumption about what they mean by "races". Could just as easily be taking about human ethnicity.

They are not making it clear whether or not it meant to be other humans or other non-human races.  Free Peoples have human and nonhuman elements in them with different factions. I pointed this out when I talk about the stuff in the Grand Alliance Order book on how they talked about the Free Peoples. This changed in the Core Book when they mention Aelves and Duardin as part of the Free Peoples directly.  Yet they basically wrote the Freeguilds in the same manner as the Free Peoples in the Grand Alliance Order book. T

The implication is that they are humans, but does not directly say it but the only examples of this are seeing the Empire models. This ambiguity is one of the major problems that I have with the Freeguild as a group. They are shown to be made up of humans, but the background in both Grand Alliance Order and the Core Book don't say it, but the fiction and the models have only shown human elements of the Freeguild. 

Edited by ShadowSwordmaster

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Reading these responses, I think you guys didn't do your homework. The podcast Legends of the Painty Men already explained why AoS humans are so similar to the old WFB Empire.

Allow me to enlighten everyone!

Before he was a god, Sigmar was a normal human who founded the Empire. He died but was later reborn in Karl Franz's body to save the world-that-was from Chaos. He obviously failed and the Mortal Realms were born.

Now Sigmar is sad that all his old friends died so he makes the current batch of humans dress like his dead friends, eat sausages, and call each other Hans to make himself feel better.

They don't have to do all this, of course. They can always go hug it out with those Bloodreavers outside the Realmgate if they like...

😁

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The reason we stopped seeing the variety in Imperial Guard and probably won't see it in Freeguild is  simply down to the differences in production between metal/resin and plastic minis.

With metal minis, the initial  mould making process is fairly cheap, but the cost of the materials for each mini is high, so you've got a high unit cost. Plastics are the other way round, with the injection mould being hugely expensive, but each unit costing very little to produce after that. These moulds do however last much longer than the old metal moulds. Overall this means you need to sell far more of each unit to make your costs back, but once you do each one is almost pure profit. There's a massive cost to duplicating within a range, and each new release is a much bigger risk financially. That's also why we get so many marines/Stormcast- they're much lower risk for that big initial investment.

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I'd love to see a similar variety of free people miniatures as there used to be with 40k guardsmen. 

Obviously, it would be unrealistic not to have the Germanic, pantaloon aesthetic not be the default, but my ideal solution would be to release 'realm specific' unit boxes. There are so many great mortal cultures and societies alluded to in the books. Off the top of my head:

  • Ghur. Shu'Gohl Guard, The Order of the Worm. You could have cool carapaced warriors whose Sigmarite stylings have that insectoid influence. And it could serve as either a dual kit or simply proxy opportunity for Ghru-themed chaos marauders. 
  • Shyishian militia. A grim regiment of bone-clad protectors of the tomb (Reminiscent of the instantly iconic rulebook art ), which again could serve as a dual kit for a mortal Deathmage unit which serves Nagash.

There is so much potential here. I'd love for GW to listen to the criticism about the constant SCE releases and pivot slightly, using the same sort of persistent trickle of releases for 'free peoples of the realms', maybe consistently getting one or two units of this sort a year. 

 

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26 minutes ago, Klamm said:

I'd love to see a similar variety of free people miniatures as there used to be with 40k guardsmen. 

Yeah, that would be nice to see. In the end we aren't stuck with the old empire design.

We have seen the projects from Duncan Rhodes and Chris Peach for there humans.

There were Artworks for Citizens of Aqshy, Chamon and Ghyran in the last 3 White Dwarfs (okay these were simple pictures).

I'm still wondering if it is just a crazy idea or if there is the posibility to make some sort of Chamon Army with parts of the Adeptus Mechanicus range (I mean, we also have Kharadron Overlords).

20 hours ago, zedatkinszed said:

BH I think this is the solution medium term. Free peoples for each realm can be made with judicious conversion already. Kairic Acolytes make good Swordsmen and Spearmen. Witch Aelves do too. Phoenix Guard and Black Guard and Sisters of Silence from 40K are all easily repurposed with Headswaps (this is where Forgeworld's Stormcast heads are useful).

Some examples of that stuff (Kairic Acolyites and Sisters of Silence) I have for example in my project here:

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, ShadowSwordmaster said:

They are not making it clear whether or not it meant to be other humans or other non-human races.  Free Peoples have human and nonhuman elements in them with different factions. I pointed this out when I talk about the stuff in the Grand Alliance Order book on how they talked about the Free Peoples. This changed in the Core Book when they mention Aelves and Duardin as part of the Free Peoples directly.  Yet they basically wrote the Freeguilds in the same manner as the Free Peoples in the Grand Alliance Order book. 

The implication is that they are humans, but does not directly say it but the only examples of this are seeing the Empire models. This ambiguity is one of the major problems that I have with the Freeguild as a group. They are shown to be made up of humans, but the background in both Grand Alliance Order and the Core Book don't say it, but the fiction and the models have only shown human elements of the Freeguild. 

Its clear Freeguild need an update.  When they outlined who they are they only had empire kits available.  They will come, when? who knows.  Until last month skaven didnt properly reflect their lore, a few months ago grots did not reflect the lore. Change will come but GW works on longer timescales and is a business so cant just pump out stuff that only the hardcore fans want, they have to produce stuff that their figures say will sell.

I cant wait to see what they do with them though, it will be amazing.

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As someone with a vested interested in the Human civilizations of the Realms (My Ironweld Project) I'm a huge advocate of free peoples/free guild with aesthetics beyond the original empire appearance. Moving into a more diverse look of humanity in the Realms would be a great way to add more depth (given the sheer number of Aelven factions both arrived and rumoured it makes sense that humanity could look equally diverse). I lack the attachment to the old empire aesthetic as I never played in the old world so I understand that some players are retiscent to see it go, but I'd prefer factions of humanity to dial their culture to 11 (Insectoid armoured barbarians, Industrial steampunk, overly ornate religious zealots etc) rather than the current cod piece lines.

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@kenshin620

I still think pikes could work, they don't have to be true scale pikes they just have to be longer then regular spears...

Image result for 1/48 scale pikemen

from this cartoon-thing if regular spears are the length of this gie's halberd you can still have models with pikes which are noticabley longer but potentially still short enough to be convenient...

 image.png.ac972a5cd9009948497d2b2ce5f249e2.png

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10 hours ago, AGPO said:

The reason we stopped seeing the variety in Imperial Guard and probably won't see it in Freeguild is  simply down to the differences in production between metal/resin and plastic minis.

With metal minis, the initial  mould making process is fairly cheap, but the cost of the materials for each mini is high, so you've got a high unit cost. Plastics are the other way round, with the injection mould being hugely expensive, but each unit costing very little to produce after that. These moulds do however last much longer than the old metal moulds. Overall this means you need to sell far more of each unit to make your costs back, but once you do each one is almost pure profit. There's a massive cost to duplicating within a range, and each new release is a much bigger risk financially. That's also why we get so many marines/Stormcast- they're much lower risk for that big initial investment.

This is really insightful!

A logical corollary might be to assume we probably won't get new kits but smaller upgrade kits since I'd be that Free People will likely never sell as well as more fantastical elements. I really wish GW sold bits so it would be easy to do head swaps to make aelves, dawi, guild members. Ebay is a thing but importing costs are sometimes a PITA. Another corollary might be if everyone stopped buying so many sigmarines we'd get other stuff! >=)

In any case, I'd like to see alchemical free guild - flaming crossbow bolts, fluorescent flask bombs, special armor or alchemical tech up to and including the Cogfort!
Let that be our special terrain! Lets keep the soul of free people but modernize the aesthetic with enough fantasy to compete with the other factions fun looks. 

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Posted (edited)

My guess is that GW had switched their strategy on old models, or rather they are currently in a new release pattern. After AoS Launch and WHFB Death the old Factions were supposed to be "starved" with no more new content, beeing replaced by new ranges and factions. The Factions had rules and sales were continued in a reduced manner so people would at least try the new thing out before switching to a new, fancy faction (which is a matter of time as every single person want´s to play with shiny toys which are in the new stuff) that would be btw also more expensive. That would also lead to a lack of interest in buying second hand armies as the sold factions from whfb were not shiny enough or split into too many subfactions. By introducing Alligiences this was also reinforced: New Armies had more rules. This was indirectly punishing the decision to play an old army. It is up to now. Imagine playing Gutbusters Alligience, having no additional Rules, Command Traits or Artifacs, against freaking Idoneth who are all about special stuff. It just feels bad. Like, you build an old army from scratch and it feels frustrating bad against new ones. I still have this feeling every single time my StD hit the board... Therefore, a lot of old armies disappeared without creating a huge second hand market as noone really wanted them. There were exceptions like Seraphon or Beastclaws, who were old armies with new Tomes and Rules, and I am quite sure GW did this as kind of controll group. Also from my understanding, Seraphon were never as common as old Imperium of Men and therefore offered more potential customers (I guess this had also to do with the selling point of aztek-dinosaur-people). We now see a change in selling tactic by GW. They turn back the factors they introduced to keep sales on old factions low and even start enchancing sales by new content (Battletomes, Endless Spells and Terrain). It may be because they don´t have to fear the impact of a second hand market or just because they are simply grasping for any single thing they have to enchance sells to maximize profit. I guess it´s a mix of both. But it may be pretty sure that we will see Ogors, Free People and Aelves coming back, most propably all this year.

At this point I also want to say: Be carefull with my theories as they are all crafted with my today-knowledge looking back onto the transition. As I was not an whfb player and started playing just a year ago it may be that some coincidences and sequential business-decisions by gw are warped into a conspiracy-sort of explaination by myself.

Edited by Charleston

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17 hours ago, AGPO said:

The reason we stopped seeing the variety in Imperial Guard and probably won't see it in Freeguild is  simply down to the differences in production between metal/resin and plastic minis.

With metal minis, the initial  mould making process is fairly cheap, but the cost of the materials for each mini is high, so you've got a high unit cost. Plastics are the other way round, with the injection mould being hugely expensive, but each unit costing very little to produce after that. These moulds do however last much longer than the old metal moulds. Overall this means you need to sell far more of each unit to make your costs back, but once you do each one is almost pure profit. There's a massive cost to duplicating within a range, and each new release is a much bigger risk financially. That's also why we get so many marines/Stormcast- they're much lower risk for that big initial investment.

And yet they made Adeptus Titanicus all plastic

A VERY niche game, that isn't technically compatible with EPIC (6mm vs 8mm).  Granted some more jaded people do criticize it for perhaps being too costly for the company but thats a debate for a different forum.

And the Ambot. I completely thought the Ambot was going to be a FW resin figure, but lo and behold it is a plastic model! And yet they can't be arsed to update the metal skaven weapon teams!

 

Meanwhile for Age of Sigmar they made Warhammer Quest and for some reason killed off the Grot Scuttlings and the Skaven Deathrunners. Now ok that may be a more complicated thing since it was part of a board game (thus harder to sell on their own), but meanwhile I can still buy Kill Team Cassius from the Kill Team Boardgame! How many people need Kill Team Cassius!

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18 hours ago, Charleston said:

magine playing Gutbusters Alligience, having no additional Rules, Command Traits or Artifacs, against freaking Idoneth who are all about special stuff. It just feels bad.

This is why variety is awesome. I, personally, prefer armies with very little in the way of special rules or options. Frankly, I prefer my models to be similar (single-part, mono-pose metal models were my jam). I like my games to be straightforward and not full of gotchya moments or conversations that start with "Actually, ..."

TBH, I struggle a bit just to make legal lists that factor in all my options.  Too many rules sources.  Too many ways to tweak.

I get that people enjoy the microfiddling, and sometimes that appeals to me as well, but the Gutbusters you describe sound great, and Idoneth are just a pain.

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5 hours ago, Sleboda said:

This is why variety is awesome. I, personally, prefer armies with very little in the way of special rules or options. Frankly, I prefer my models to be similar (single-part, mono-pose metal models were my jam). I like my games to be straightforward and not full of gotchya moments or conversations that start with "Actually, ..."

TBH, I struggle a bit just to make legal lists that factor in all my options.  Too many rules sources.  Too many ways to tweak.

I get that people enjoy the microfiddling, and sometimes that appeals to me as well, but the Gutbusters you describe sound great, and Idoneth are just a pain.

While I totaly get your point and have to agree with you, my initial statement meant rather that newer factions simply have also stronger rules.

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I'm thinking a new free peoples battletome with conversion guides like the imperial guard ones might help you're issues. Rennaisance fair guard are the default like cadians and then if you feel like it you can make your own chem dogs or equivalent

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 Maybe they should give the freeguild a napoleonic/steampunkish aesthetic but with armor and weapons of the renaissance era, something that the Empire could look like if it developed new technologies

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I'm surprised this thread got bumped.

9 hours ago, Igordepolo said:

 Maybe they should give the freeguild a napoleonic/steampunkish aesthetic but with armor and weapons of the renaissance era, something that the Empire could look like if it developed new technologies

Again, this does not solve the problems that I have with the freeguild. This just covers it up and makes more like the Imperial Guard that some many people want than it's own thing.

Basically want people want out of the Freeguild is their glorious humans holding back the dark and all of that nonsense. They want Empire 2.0 or Fantasy Imperial Guard, which I think it is the wrong direction. I think it needs more races in that army and showing that the Free Peoples is more than humans doing stuff.

Edited by ShadowSwordmaster

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I think we're going to get fantasy Imperial Guard with the army being mostly normal humans and perhaps some other races. Maybe even some never-before-seen new races. Also probably some new halflings.

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In my opinion the Empire look needs to go. In such fantastical realms, having this historical look is doing a disservice to the setting. Some features could be retained, like Warrior Priests, Knightly Orders, Greatswords and Halberds, but with a new look fitting of the High Fantasy setting. Instead of having a renaicansse look, go for breastplates stormcast inspired and chainmail skirts with leather boots .  Freeguild generals riding wingless armored griffins, Arquebus loaded with magic crystals with the essence of Azyr, basically Lightning guns, with ammo being infused by Mages, Badass armored warrior priests calling upon the thunder of azyr and blasting chaos left and right Thor style with greathammers. 

Make all the weapons and armour with azyr iconography, comets, thunders and griffins.

Bring the High fantasy to the humans, and make them a proper faction worthy of Age of Sigmar.

Especially the armies of Azyr, being around Stormcast for so long, should have developed as a professional army, trying to emulate their champions somewhat.

 

 

 

Edited by Sete
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On 3/3/2019 at 8:26 PM, svnvaldez said:

I agree GW needs to do something with legacy armies. But I probably differ with you on what needs to be done. If legacy armies will not be re-imagined and updated in there rules like what they just did with Skaven I believe they should be removed completely from the GH matched play point section. There is nothing stopping ppl from using old models and "Legends" warscrolls in Narative and Open. That's where unsupported armies should be imo. However it is frustrating to try to use an army they still sell with the expectation that they will be playable in matched play when clearly GW has no interest in investing the resources to make them work in game.

 

 

Im glad all the oldhammer guys with free people/empire armies think this way and stay out of large tournements. Because if they ever woke up to see they have one of the most potentially dominating armies in the game.. nobody would have a chance. Especially FEC, Slaanesh, and fyreslayers

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2 hours ago, Sete said:

In my opinion the Empire look needs to go. In such fantastical realms, having this historical look is doing a disservice to the setting. Some features could be retained, like Warrior Priests, Knightly Orders, Greatswords and Halberds, but with a new look fitting of the High Fantasy setting. Instead of having a renaicansse look, go for breastplates stormcast inspired and chainmail skirts with leather boots .  Freeguild generals riding wingless armored griffins, Arquebus loaded with magic crystals with the essence of Azyr, basically Lightning guns, with ammo being infused by Mages, Badass armored warrior priests calling upon the thunder of azyr and blasting chaos left and right Thor style with greathammers. 

Make all the weapons and armour with azyr iconography, comets, thunders and griffins.

Bring the High fantasy to the humans, and make them a proper faction worthy of Age of Sigmar.

Especially the armies of Azyr, being around Stormcast for so long, should have developed as a professional army, trying to emulate their champions somewhat.

Understand where you're coming from but completely disagree.

1. We don't need more factions based on what you're essentially describing as lesser stormcasts.  The SCE range is already big enough/ still growing.

2. Not all mortals need to reflect high fantasy.  Higher fantasy troops do not resonate with some people.  They like the grittier tried and true foot soldiers/ Glade Guard/ chaos marauders/ skeletons etc.  It is best to maintain variation for all sorts of interests.

That's just my opinion, but I'm sure a lot of you would be perfectly happy with all-high-fantasy-super-saiyan-stormcast-all-the-time.

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The Empire look is not staying. I expect them to lean into the Greco-Roman themes of AoS. 

 

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1 hour ago, Zanzou said:

Understand where you're coming from but completely disagree.

1. We don't need more factions based on what you're essentially describing as lesser stormcasts.  The SCE range is already big enough/ still growing.

2. Not all mortals need to reflect high fantasy.  Higher fantasy troops do not resonate with some people.  They like the grittier tried and true foot soldiers/ Glade Guard/ chaos marauders/ skeletons etc.  It is best to maintain variation for all sorts of interests.

That's just my opinion, but I'm sure a lot of you would be perfectly happy with all-high-fantasy-super-saiyan-stormcast-all-the-time.

It makes more sense than having Empire troops because Sigmar was in Karl Franz body on a world that was destroyed. I just gave the example of troops from Azyr.

I disagree with your lesser stormcast opinion. Thats like saying blood reavers are lesser blood warriors.

(Its like saying we dont need all these warcry chaos warbands because we already have khorne marauders.)

They would fit in the theme of Azyr, and thats where im coming from.

Just like the Empire does not resonate with a lot of people aswell, and also im sure some people would like new plastic, dynamic sculpts, instead of regimented old plastic.

And i wont be satisfied with boring, old factions.

 

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58 minutes ago, Sete said:

It makes more sense than having Empire troops because Sigmar was in Karl Franz body on a world that was destroyed. I just gave the example of troops from Azyr.

I disagree with your lesser stormcast opinion. Thats like saying blood reavers are lesser blood warriors.

(Its like saying we dont need all these warcry chaos warbands because we already have khorne marauders.)

They would fit in the theme of Azyr, and thats where im coming from.

Just like the Empire does not resonate with a lot of people aswell, and also im sure some people would like new plastic, dynamic sculpts, instead of regimented old plastic.

And i wont be satisfied with boring, old factions.

 

The only part I agree with is the past faction garb doesn't currently make sense (like the hurricanum has "Karl Franz" literally written on the model).

The difference is both of the chaos example you gave are models supported by GW, but you're advocating abandoning 1 old unique faction in favor of creating another faction similar to SCE.

You can have new mortal human foot soldier sculpts in dynamic poses without having to give them super powers like SCE or SC-like breastplate armor. Again we already have the massive SC range for higher fantasy Sigmar soldiers.

It's 100 percent ok if low-fantasy is "boring" to you, but I don't think that means we should remove the option for regular mortal human soldiers, for the people opposed to the SC style.

 

Edited by Zanzou
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I think you are mistaken.

Im not asking for super powered soldiers.

Im asking as an example, for a regular human army from azyr with shared visual elements with Stormcast (because it makes sense) where the only "Super Powered" dudes like warrior priests can invole the power of sigmar. Not asking for Thor.

I gave an example of an army of azyr, but whatever city or realms fits your fancy really. As long as its new.

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