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ShadowSwordmaster

The Problem of the Free Peoples and the Freeguilds in Age of Sigmar

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1 hour ago, Nos said:

You buy the models, nothing else. Rules change all the time. There is not and never has been a single model sold by GW that has been advertised as “competitive” or good at the game. That’s maybe an expectation of some players but it’s one they have created on the basis of their own aspirations, not something that was ever advertised or listed as being part of the product.

Nor have GW ever claimed that AOS or indeed of any of their systems are a balanced game, that all factions are equally as good as each other or that all factions will receive the same level of investment in respect to rules, models etc. It’s manifestly the case that balance and equal treatment of factions is not their priority and they haven’t ever said it is. 

If it is one’s priority to only collect a “competitive” faction within an imbalanced rules system then said person needs to do their research as to what those factions are before investing, while also understanding that it might change with the release of new rules or factions regardless. Again, you’re buying only models, not a gurantee to an army that functions effectively or even the same way over time. The rules and the game are organic; if one is looking for consistency while that’s understandable it’s not how the game and it’s development works, and given GW’s history, you’re betting against the house of you think it will for AOS.

 

I couldn't disagree more. If it's all about models there are numerous model companies with a lower price point. It's about the fluff and the game for what i would argue with confidence the vast majority of people who buy GW models. If i was looking for models only i'd avoid GW entirely over price. 

I think its a reasonable expectation to have a relatively balanced game with factions receiving comparable rules and abilities. Obviously as they update things change, it's a fluid thing. But as these updates roll through and certain factions are left a long way behind, it makes investments in the game redundant. 

What GW have or have not ever claimed is irrelevant. GW either support their lines with fluff and rules or they should stop. Like someone said before all they have to do is dangle a carrot and say 'we're going to get to army X' but it might take a year. I can't see how even appearing to have some balance is an unfounded or unreasonable expectation. 

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4 hours ago, ShadowSwordmaster said:

I would argue that example is bad and it goes back to my point on how the Freeguilds throw humans into one faction compared to the other races that we have. That would make it worse.

There are more human factions than anything though. Stormcast are all human. Freeguild are human. Darkoath are human. Maggotkin are human. Arcanites are human. Blood warriors are human. All of death are ex human. 

We are missing normal humans, but that just shows how low of a priority it is. While it will certainly happen eventually, there's no reason to believe we will see multiple factions filling this niche in a setting that clearly isn't interested in it. Maybe in the distant future, but certainly not anytime soon.

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1 hour ago, Blightzkrieg said:

There are more human factions than anything though. Stormcast are all human. Freeguild are human. Darkoath are human. Maggotkin are human. Arcanites are human. Blood warriors are human. All of death are ex human. 

We are missing normal humans, but that just shows how low of a priority it is. While it will certainly happen eventually, there's no reason to believe we will see multiple factions filling this niche in a setting that clearly isn't interested in it. Maybe in the distant future, but certainly not anytime soon.

Nah the freeguild will probably get an update sooner or later.

think of all the Army reviews Gw did for aos 2.0.

If we have a look at the Grot one you’ll notice that Moonclan, Trog goths and spiderfang where all mentioned,

have a look at our more bestial miniatures and you’ll notice that this was probably one of the first things, which used the name beasts of chaos and actually a few months later we got a book containing all the factions named.

its similar with the skaven race.

and Free guilds were one of the armies that where mentioned with all of the other human factions like arsenal etc.

if Gw wanted to throw them away they probably would have done it so with the greenskinz (which is very sad, just wanted to start an armie of these guys) and gitmob grots.

 

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4 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Free guilds were one of the armies that where mentioned with all of the other human factions like arsenal etc.

Completely agree.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/06/05/faction-focus-index/

Take a look at the index of AOS 2.0 (It has been quite predictive of the armies we have seen so far). We have got SCE, Nighthaunt, Mixed Beasts, Mixed Grots, Mixed Skaven, FEC, and soon Khorne.

If you look at the Mixed Grots closely you see Giants, Trolls, Spiders, Moonclan all in 1 army... without gitmob.

This has not been predictive of new models however. Many finecast grot models pictured have been replaced. 

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Posted (edited)

Taking it a step further rumors have all but confirmed we will get Gutbusters, Slaanesh, Seraphon and Mixed Everchosen/Slaves to Darkness in the near future.

LoN, DoK, Deepkin and Nurgle all have AOS2ish books (They have the new black labels rather than the gold).

That leaves Aelves, Bonesplitterz, IJ, Dispossessed, Tzeentch, Free Peoples, Fyreslayers, Sylvaneth, and KO.

If I was a betting man I would go with those names as the next tomes:

Probably: Gutbusters, Slaanesh, Seraphon, Mixed Everchosen/Slaves to Darkness, BS from what I hear this year.

Then: Aelves, IJ, Dispossessed, Tzeentch, Free Peoples, Fyreslayers, Sylvaneth, and KO next year.

Edited by svnvaldez

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I'm currently reading the Spear of Shadows book... and it cites various different guilds that have very different creeds from each other, as well various degrees of honor. There are some guilds that seem downright evil, and are suspicious of Sigmar. I agree that the faction could do with a splash of new models, but what's already there is very open to customization. I'm currently taking some bits from the Frostgrave Soldiers and Barbarian boxes to create a good mix of aesthetics. 

Not every guild is from Azyr. There are a lot of folks liberated by Sigmar who have somewhat reluctantly joined forces with Azyrite guild members. And, there is definitely tension between the humans native to a realm and the "colonizers" from Azyr. This is  described in Spear of Shadows as well as City of Secrets. So, having a mix of model styles makes sense, but so does a pure army of matching aesthetics. 

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Yeah, Free People/Cities/Guilds/Whatever only lags behind Flesh Eater Courts in the great-concept-that’s-screwed-over-by-using-old-fantasy-models league.

Much as i’d love to see a really interesting new range of racially (in every sense) & sexually integrated units to totally redefine the look it feels like it might be a way off.

I’ve said it before but I’d just take all the Empire models from FP to Ironweld to Collegiate Arcane, combine with all the stranded Aelf factions and Dispossessed. Weed out a selection of older or less useful, poor selling, bad models to streamline the selection,rewrite what warscrolls needs to be rewritten so they work together and present it as one force.

Make it so your choice of general determines the, rough, overall composition of your army and what battleline and allegiance abilities you have, combine that with some rules for creating a city and a handful of new units and you’re done.

People want an all Aelf army then they can still do that, same with Duardin or Human but with options to add in what they need without using allies.

Stop-gap measure, and I’d much prefer to see a purpose built force with a new distinctive look but it’d keep em viable for a couple more years whilst they do roll out new stuff (and means they can make new Light/Dark Aelves truly unique without trying to shoehorn old units into them).

 

 

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Saxon said:

 

What GW have or have not ever claimed is irrelevant. GW either support their lines with fluff and rules or they should stop. Like someone said before all they have to do is dangle a carrot and say 'we're going to get to army X' but it might take a year. I can't see how even appearing to have some balance is an unfounded or unreasonable expectation. 

Why? They’re not a charity. Thy don’t owe you or me or anyone anything. We bought their stuff because we wanted it, not as some philanthropic gesture. They’re doing very well perusing their own practice.

It’s what you *want* but that’s precisely why it *does* matter how GW products are sold and advertised.

Things are created with the purpose of being bought and sold as the thing they’re sold as. Obviously enterprising people can make what they want out of them sure, but you can’t complain that something Isnt something else or more than it is just because that’s what you wanted it to be. Literally no product is sold on that basis, it baffles me as to why people think that should be different with GW.

Dislike the prices? Then do what a consumer in any situation does with anything else in that circumstance; don’t buy it, or wait to find it cheaper. Unhappy with how much you paid for something? Do what anyone else in that circumstance; return it within the statutory time or sell it on, or just accept it wasn’t the most reasonable or sensible purchase you made and get on with life.

Because the expectation that x army would always be competitive or even playable at all was never promised as part of the product. You don’t buy any GW product with the manufacturers gurantee that it will be consistently effective. Only that you can play with it as a model within the current system at the time of purchase. Which, you still can with all of their products on sale.

GW don’t owe any of us a favour, bottom line. So don’t buy their stuff expecting one.

Edited by Nos
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7 hours ago, kenshin620 said:

Tzeentch already beat freeguild to the punch

In fact there was even someone who made a freeguild army by using Kairic Acolytes!

Plus I can't imagine a greek looking hoplite with a gunpowder rifle. Unless it's 40k in which case REMUS IS BEST

  Reveal hidden contents

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@Nos Methinks theres a difference between complaining about competitiveness of an army and feeling your army is being neglected by GW. It's a hard pill to swallow knowing you'll never ever get new models again. Like Bretonnia Circa 2004.

Meanwhile GW has made their 7th (or 8th? I dunno I lost count) Primaris Lieutenant! I can't believe it's an actual meme....

Is it though? As someone whose been in the Hobby since 1995 I’ve collected Tomb Kings, Brettonians, Empire, Dwarves and Dark Elves. I did this for a completely different set of rules, set in a completely different world, called Warhammer. Over that time the game itself changed considerably and while there were attempts to make all armies viable the way they played and their ability to perform competitively varied massively even within this system, which I eventually fell out with towards the end of its lifespan.

When I got the bug about this time last year to get back into fantasy and start AOS I made my own assumptions that these stalwarts of Warhammer would all have a stout set of rules etc and I checked on the app and sure enough there were warscrolls for them all, great.

But the most cursory research beyond this-because as people keep saying, it’s a big time and financial investment so why would you make a decision around something like that in ignorance?- revealed that Dwarves were no longer Dwarves etc, that none of these had an army book, and that the newer armies were better for playing and enjoying this new system than armies bought and designed with a different game in mind.  The consensus that the old Warhammer armies were kept in solely as a charitable gesture or at best as a stop-gap measure was overwhelming.

Rather than stamp my feet about how unfair this all was I sold models from a different game and used the proceeds to get myself a new army designed specifically for AOS as it was very apparent that this was now the focus of GW, this new world and new system with its own unique Lore, not recreating the old one which they literally blew up.

Bottom line; things change. I would completely agree that if a Brettonian player had been consistently teased with a promise of support for their favoured faction since 2004 it would be reasonable to be angry about the absence of said support.  But they haven’t. At some point you need to realise which way the wind is blowing and take a hint. Or, if you don’t want to give up hope and hold out that one day their time will come then great, good for you.

But don’t act like it’s reasonable and normal to expect something because you want it in the face of repeated evidence that it’s highly unlikely to happen. That’s why how the products are sold and advertised matters. And they are not sold and advertised so as to suggest they will always be effective on the tabletop. For people to make that assumption is simply a failure to manage their own expectations. Many people want to have a great job that pays well, many people expect to get one, but that’s not how life works.

As you say in the same time frame since stopping with Brettonians they have routinley made new Space Marines. It’s not an accident. GW like making Space Marines over pretty much anything else and are happy to do it at the expense of a more fair and balanced approach to other factions. That’s simply a fact at this point.

And they’ve never said or pretended otherwise. It’s something that many people don’t like but that dosent make it wrong. If you’re waiting around for GW to stop making even more Space Marines and use that time to focus on AOS, it’s *never* going to happen. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me fifty seven times..,,

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This is how I imagine FreeGuilds in AoS. The old Empire models really don't fit into this new aesthetics imo. This is the fantastic army of Chris Peach from GW.

 

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Posted (edited)

@Nos I agree, Asa Bretonian Fan I still hope Bretonian themed stuff will return (be it a sub-faction, like catachans or deathkorps for IG, of freeguild or [prefurably] as the survivors of Haven with a mixed elf-human roster) but I do not and will not get angry if it never happens.

 

@Belakor these imply that the empire aethetic will remain...

Callis and Toll: The Silver Shard

The Red Hours

Eight Lamentations: Spear of Shadows

Image result for Eight Lamentations war claw

edit: if with some minor modifications

Edited by Turin Turambar

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@Turin Turambar Probably! At least I wish they sell conversion kits like helmets, weapons, shoulderpads,... There could be one for each realm 🤤

This way we could still use old empire models but with a AoS style.

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2 hours ago, Nos said:

Why? They’re not a charity. Thy don’t owe you or me or anyone anything. We bought their stuff because we wanted it, not as some philanthropic gesture. They’re doing very well perusing their own practice.

It’s what you *want* but that’s precisely why it *does* matter how GW products are sold and advertised.

Things are created with the purpose of being bought and sold as the thing they’re sold as. Obviously enterprising people can make what they want out of them sure, but you can’t complain that something Isnt something else or more than it is just because that’s what you wanted it to be. Literally no product is sold on that basis, it baffles me as to why people think that should be different with GW.

Dislike the prices? Then do what a consumer in any situation does with anything else in that circumstance; don’t buy it, or wait to find it cheaper. Unhappy with how much you paid for something? Do what anyone else in that circumstance; return it within the statutory time or sell it on, or just accept it wasn’t the most reasonable or sensible purchase you made and get on with life.

Because the expectation that x army would always be competitive or even playable at all was never promised as part of the product. You don’t buy any GW product with the manufacturers gurantee that it will be consistently effective. Only that you can play with it as a model within the current system at the time of purchase. Which, you still can with all of their products on sale.

GW don’t owe any of us a favour, bottom line. So don’t buy their stuff expecting one.

Look you're not wrong but you don't invest in cars because the user manual is nice do you? A car serves a function. I don't think it's a stretch to suggest (again) that people buy GW products because of the game and fluff that has been developed alongside the models. 

I think a lot of people who have invested in legacy armies are frustrated that those god-awful sigmar marines get a new box every few months and yet older armies get zero, not even a touch up to outdated warscrolls. 

It's funny, the advice you gave is exactly what i did, the models are in a box and i drag them out every time i feel like ****** with a game. I capped my investment in free peoples. Well done GW, you just cost yourselves about $1500 in models i would have purchased if you gave it the slightest look. I'm not upset about it, i love the army and i enjoy painting them but the gaming group i am a part of is developing to be more competitive so i have gone a different way with AOS. 

I would argue it wouldn't take much effort to keep a lot of the older lists alive. Keep the models the same just write a FAQ or update the app. They seem to do it every time they bring something new and shiny out that upsets everyone so it can't be that hard.  

 

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22 minutes ago, Belakor said:

@Turin Turambar Probably! At least I wish they sell conversion kits like helmets, weapons, shoulderpads,... There could be one for each realm 🤤

This way we could still use old empire models but with a AoS style.

TBH I think this is the solution medium term. Free peoples for each realm can be made with judicious conversion already. Kairic Acolytes make good Swordsmen and Spearmen. Witch Aelves do too. Phoenix Guard and Black Guard and Sisters of Silence from 40K are all easily repurposed with Headswaps (this is where Forgeworld's Stormcast heads are useful).

I'd love to see more diversity in the human Order offering and I do think Freeguild will be taken a) in a Guild (or chapter)  direction with the possibility of imperial guard style duplicate / cultural variant units with apposite rules (i.e Catachans,  Elysians, Steel Legion etc etc). But this will take years upon years. Honestly though it would be a better route than more and more SCE chambers :P 

I'd be all in on a Ghyran amazon warrior freeguild army! Or a Ghur living city army. Or ... I can keep going as I'm sure we all can! But for the moment I'm converting my unit of Sisters of Silence :) 

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8 minutes ago, Belakor said:

@Turin Turambar Probably! At least I wish they sell conversion kits like helmets, weapons, shoulderpads,... There could be one for each realm 🤤

This way we could still use old empire models but with a AoS style.

I know, I mean if you look at the man in the last 2 pictures he has some roman groin things (cingulum militare).

Idealy I would want 3 new types of freeguild (sort of like how the imperial guard get 3 types of plastic guard [even if 1 is technically scions]).

1 late medeival/renaissance style:

one kit could come with moderised poses of humans in brestplates, and empire-esk clothes but has options for more heads (empire helmets, plus maybe conquesttidor or some other Tilean inspired helmet, possibly even imperial roman to channel that Luccini flavour) aswell as other accesories like various shoulder guards, knives and swords and leg armor, etc.

another could be more knightly with full plate armor, but with options in the kit for different styles and accerories

and the third could be more 'eastern', with options inside to make late roman/byzantine themed, eastern european and even chinese/asian styled armies (like haveing lamenar chest armor).

then you could also have (perhapps forgeworld) expansions for even more variation...

 

 

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also does anybody know/think freeguild will take a page from dog's of book and release A) pikemen (i think AOS's range for melee weapons always for pike) and B)pavises...

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My solution is similar to @JPjr, in that I would group vanilla dwarfs, whatever elves don't fit the new factions and humans. But humans would be made from new kits that actually fit the AoS aesthetic, while I will squat most of the old Empire range. I really think historic cultures don't have a place in this setting.
  Having said that, I understand that would suck for many Empire players, and judging by GW new approach, they're more likely to be satisfied than me. So hopefully they won't harbor bad feelings towards me!

 

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@Nos Don't get me wrong, I'm honestly not super mad at GW or anything, I'm like...semi disappointed but also accepting. I just pointed out that not everything revolves around competitiveness. I mean I like Beastmen! Probably the worst 7th edition book every made (maybe aside from Orcs and Goblins)

Heck I enjoy AoS enough that I actually turned off a youtube video where someone was playing Battlefleet Gothic 2 and in the first 15 seconds he said "Yea I'm a BIG fan of warhammer ....BTW **** Age of Sigmar". 😥

57 minutes ago, Turin Turambar said:

also does anybody know/think freeguild will take a page from dog's of book and release A) pikemen (i think AOS's range for melee weapons always for pike) and B)pavises...

I think GW will shy away from Pikes because pikes are LOOOONG.

People already have a problem with transporting the more complex/fiddly minis, imagine having to have enough space for (relatively) thin pikes that are 2-3 times as long as the guy carrying it.

And then the pikes themselves will eat up a lot of sprue/runner space, especially with GWs heroic scale so I imagine they'll be a lot thicker than the ones you get in say Warlords or Perrys set. All that space could I imagine be better used for more options. Plus even in the historical market, I hear many people preferring to use Brass pikes rather than the plastic ones. Still though I do like the look of Riccos Republican Guard.

1 hour ago, Belakor said:

@Turin Turambar Probably! At least I wish they sell conversion kits like helmets, weapons, shoulderpads,... There could be one for each realm 🤤

This way we could still use old empire models but with a AoS style.

Conversion bitz seem so obvious, but outside of Space Marines it seems so barren.

I mean for the entire existence of the Chaos Warrior set, not ONE conversion pack to make them dedicate to a chaos god!

Well FW did make those empire conversion sets for more armored troops, but outside of that small example it's still pretty lacking. I suppose the SCE ones are finally showing some more interest in alternative bitz.

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2 minutes ago, Jetengine said:

Pikes are a PITA to transport and snap easily in plastic. 

Absolutely correct but as an owner of a Stormcast Eternals army who spent most of the weekend pinning snapped off bits I can attest that feasibility for transport seems to have been forgotten in the design process for most AOS stuff 

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Posted (edited)

We still still have LOADS of spears - heck khinerai have spears, fragile tails and wingtips! One even has tassels!! 

Sure they might not be realistic ones at two or three times a mans height because that's just silly, but I'm sure we'll still see them. Heck in a setting where most things are huge compared to humans and where you've got giants and huge monsters spears and pikes and halberds make the most sense! 

Edited by Overread

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15 minutes ago, Overread said:

pikes and halberds make the most sense! 

certainly they would if they had a rule that if you charge a unit of spear/pike men then before you get to attack you risk getting stuck like a pig yourself. 

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If this unit does not move in its movement phase it gains entrench. 

Units attacking an entrenched unit receive 1 mortal wound for every to unmodified wound roll of a 6+ (or 5+ or 4+ if you want to be really mean!) 

 

 

And there's how pikes and stuff should maybe work

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, Blightzkrieg said:

There are more human factions than anything though. Stormcast are all human. Freeguild are human. Darkoath are human. Maggotkin are human. Arcanites are human. Blood warriors are human. All of death are ex human. 

We are missing normal humans, but that just shows how low of a priority it is. While it will certainly happen eventually, there's no reason to believe we will see multiple factions filling this niche in a setting that clearly isn't interested in it. Maybe in the distant future, but certainly not anytime soon.

You are missing the point of what I'm saying.  This is about the Order faction in particular not everyone else. Maybe I should have clarified that part.

Edited by ShadowSwordmaster

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Posted (edited)
17 hours ago, xking said:

I could be wrong, I just think Freeguild should and will have a new aesthetic.  To be it's own thing and not just the "Empire in the Age of Sigmar".   No more  codpieces and pantaloons please. And new minor races.

They're all over the Black Library novels so the codpieces and poofy shirts are here to stay. Edit: saw that someone already posted examples.

Edited by Knight Scáthach of Fimm

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