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1 minute ago, Lucky Snake Eyes said:

I myself have a Slaves army (though i'm currently using it as the basis for a slaanesh army until darkoath drops) but between their less than stellar start collecting set, prices of their other kits, unfamiliarity with being a new army (where as aelves and slaves are based in older armies with nostalgia from WFB) and yes awkward transportation (been dealing with that with my mortis engine lately) they where a hard sell to players with only so much money to spend, my self included as i considered them for my first army, throw their sub par rules on top of that and i can see where many people would be turned off from them. 

Hmm. Forgot about price as an obvious repellent. If you think about DOK though, they're arguably worse in terms of money, but theyre super strong so people buy them regardless, also Im sure some people just like them, but they are also broken lol. So I guess at least if KO do get a rewrite, they'll get buffed before getting their costs cut. 

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9 minutes ago, Walrustaco said:

Are you trying to tell me that we have a rumour in the rumour thread? Since you're mentioning that, are there any other rewrites or releases you know of? 

Indeed. This is a real rumor. We've heard it multiple times and I'm claiming that I've now heard it from multiple sources. This will be a big battletome year, akin to 40k's codex output last year. We'll see updates for virtually all of the 1e books this year. With the release of the final two Shadespire Nightvault warbands for this season, KO and Sylvaneth, we'll see updated battletomes drop around the same time for those armies.  Current whispers suggest late Spring (April/May).  As a corollary, this shouldn't be surprising as GW has seemingly broadcast their release schedule in the interwoven releases of Battleforce boxes (2017 and 2018), Shadespire Warbands (Season 1 and 2) and Malign Portents Harbingers.  I don't think it is any surprise there there is an interdependent relationship amongst these product lines. 

Moving beyond these rumors and using this observation, its reasonable to suggest that, beyond updating these prior books, we'll see releases for Slaanesh and Slaves to Darkness (that will likely include Darkoath and even Everchosen).  We'll have at least one more big "out of left field, new army", but it is anyone's guess what this is. 

9 minutes ago, Walrustaco said:

I'm also curious about what you mean by virtually no representation. Are they not still played at tournaments? Did a list with KO not finish 2nd at CanCon as was mentioned?

LLV/Honest Wargamer's statistics don't lie.  KO doesn't have representation at events.  Even the KO list that did well finished 10th or 11th since it lost its final game. I was one of the primary KO players last season, a moderator in the KO FB group, and am still active in the KO whatsapp chat. Let me assure you that there isn't alot of KO presence at events, and when the those few do show up, most aren't winning a majority of their games.  That's what made the performance at Cancon so remarkable. 


And while there was no direct recording of the session I mentioned from Nova 2017, here is the conversation being reported by us on Warhammer weekly,  a couple days after it took place.  
 

 

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1 minute ago, Walrustaco said:

Hmm. Forgot about price as an obvious repellent. If you think about DOK though, they're arguably worse in terms of money, but theyre super strong so people buy them regardless, also Im sure some people just like them, but they are also broken lol. So I guess at least if KO do get a rewrite, they'll get buffed before getting their costs cut. 

Even have a way to make gunhaulers battleline or something so that you don't have to drop $150 (canadian monopoly money) on the bare minimum arkanaut company required to play. Then there's the $100-150 cost of there larger airships... Yeah considering I was a broke college student at the time I found it much easier to put together a LoN army.

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1 minute ago, Thomas Lyons said:

Let me assure you that there isn't alot of KO presence at events, and when the those few do show up, most aren't winning a majority of their games.  That's what made the performance at Cancon so remarkable.

Do you think that performance might signal that they can perform well or is it just a one off? All I'm reading, of course, is results. I didn't watch any games, what makes it so remarkable? Can other players not emulate this?

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1 minute ago, Walrustaco said:

Do you think that performance might signal that they can perform well or is it just a one off? All I'm reading, of course, is results. I didn't watch any games, what makes it so remarkable? Can other players not emulate this?

They have a few neat tricks, like grapple hooking around in the shooing phase, but there transportation rules with their airships does handicap you a fair bit for using one of their unique mechanics, so i feel it comes down to a perfect storm of skill, enemy army and mission type.

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10 minutes ago, Walrustaco said:

Why do you think casuals don't play them? You see casuals playing stuff like Aelves or StD. I remember some factions putting me off by seeming hard to transport or seeming easily damaged. I remember that was the initial feelings people had with skyships. 

there rule set are kind of wonky and you have to remember a lot them when playing KO which still lead to less then steller mechanics and gameplay, they are definitely harder to play in a casual setting. also they are universally consider weak at the moment that even casual player are aware of it.

if you compare them to say Ironjawz, who are not exactly a top tier army, they have such easy to remember rules and mechanics and are considered fun to play that they even show up in tournament because people like playing them casually in that setting

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1 minute ago, novakai said:

there rule set are kind of wonky and you have to remember a lot them when playing KO which still lead to less then steller mechanics and gameplay, they are definitely harder to play in a casual setting. also they are universally consider weak at the moment that even casual player are aware of it.

if you compare them to say Ironjawz, who are not exactly a top tier army, they have such easy to remember rules and mechanics and are considered fun to play that they even show up in tournament because people like playing them casually in that setting

Power aside, I don't think it's a bad thing to have some armies be more complicated. Some people like the complexity.

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Just now, Walrustaco said:

Power aside, I don't think it's a bad thing to have some armies be more complicated. Some people like the complexity.

yeah but you expect the complexity to equal better results when your playing them which is not what happen when you play KO and trying to use boats to do it. like DoK are complex and harder to master, but when you do you usually end up smashing face

and in casual play, people like drinking beer and rolling dices without thinking to hard

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Just now, Walrustaco said:

Do you think that performance might signal that they can perform well or is it just a one off? All I'm reading, of course, is results. I didn't watch any games, what makes it so remarkable? Can other players not emulate this?

I've always held that KO can perform in the hands of a competent player with the right matchups.  I think that's what happened here.  But the stats don't lie.  Here are the most recent numbers, and this has been tallied since the start of AOS 2.0.

KO represents 1.6% of the current meta representation over the last 6 months, the same amount of players currently playing Beastclaw Raiders as an allegiance in the meta and less than any other army that has been released since that book was released, and even those immediately before it. It currently has a 38.6% win ratio, meaning that they'll win 2 games in each event on average.  Of the 43 allegiances showing up at events, KO ranks as 37th on their win ratio. So, KO only wins more matches (on average) than 6 other armies in the entire game.  Those six armies include Beastclaw Raiders (38%), Spiderfang (33.3%), Brayherds (32%), Slaves to Darkness (30%), Darkling Coven (30%), and  Everchosen (16.7%).  Ironically, of those six, Spiderfang and Brayherds have already been updated and so their stats will only increase, and Everchosen and Slaves to Darkness are queued up to be updated as well (as previously noted) and will likely no longer sit at the bottom.   Let that sink in. That means KO will only beat out 2 other armies in the entire game for win ratios. Hope those numbers help put skin on my claims.

 

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9 hours ago, Aryann said:

I'm not sure we can speak of evolution of some kind. Latest factions/battletomes were combo ones but now they might return to release small factions again. And in some way they do that - Flesh-Eater Courts second battletome. They could have just implement them in the next Legions of Nagash book instead of releasing their own "small" battletome again.

Then again latest battletomes might be combo style by people demand. Battletomes created of left-overs (no aversion meant) that were not intended to receive new models (LoN, BoC, Spiderfang, Skaven). Spiderfang could have been adapted into Gloomspite battletome or left abandonded. GW decided former. There are not to many "left-over" factions left - Aelves? with Free People? Dispossessed with Ironweld in addition? That's one battletome. Now we will probably receive Slaves to Darkness + Archaon + new Darkoath. That's second combo battletome. MAYBE Ogors if that counts. After that I'm pretty sure GW will return to mono-faction battletomes with Malerion aelves, Tyrion Aelves, Slaanesh and so on.

I apologize, but I am not really certain what point you are trying to express here.

Are you saying that you think combo-books are temporary and they won't ever come back to those combo battletomes in the future?  History tells me that GW will rewrite every army book at least one time before potentially dropping them from the game (and army removal is quite infrequent).  But the combo battletomes and mono battletomes are still following the same basic format - with some differences to account for handling sub-allegiances.  But each book still seems to contain allegiance abilities, spell lores, relics, command traits, and battalions.  Usually you can also include conditional battleline as well.  Not all current books have these things and you can definitely see an evolution over time.  They iterated to that format, but it seems pretty set in stone at this point.  

Sure, not everything should be a combo book and probably won't be.  I would expect that for the most part combo books are a tool to consolidate things - most of which is left overs from Warhammer Fantasy.  That said, I expect combo books will be with us for quite a while and I would not rule out GW making another combo faction out of the blue.  These are just tools in a toolbox and you never know what ideas the design team will come up with down the road.

But with the current state of factions right now there are a lot of books that do not fit the current format for what an army book is (ignore combo or mono).  Any book prior to Sylvaneth are missing a whole lot of what are now standard parts.  The GHB filled in some of that, for some factions, but not everything.  These are the things I was mentioning should be addressed to put the game in a better state.

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2 hours ago, Walrustaco said:

Are you trying to tell me that we have a rumour in the rumour thread? Since you're mentioning that, are there any other rewrites or releases you know of? 

I'm also curious about what you mean by virtually no representation. Are they not still played at tournaments? Did a list with KO not finish 2nd at CanCon as was mentioned?

Nop.kharadrom played the final and could have winned the cancon. But lost and finished the cancon at the 11th

 

Btw it isnt a rumour but a bive,i think in lvo the new darkoath army gonna be shown

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On 1/24/2019 at 11:06 PM, The_Yellow_Sign said:

It's mostly wishful thinking on my part because Dragon Ogres used to be part of the same faction as Warriors of Chaos back in WHFB.  I just really want a plastic Shaggoth...

I agree, the Shaggoth is and alright sculpt, but the other Dragon Ogres really have not aged well.

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On 1/24/2019 at 10:45 PM, Yoshiya said:

Yea, id actually say that Hysh is the least expanded upon of all the realms. They haven't really said which chaos god is dominant there (assume Tzeentch but he's Chamon too) and all we know is that a bunch of yet unreleased 'light' aelves are there.

The core book stuff was brief too and I think we only have a very limited about of art for the realm. I expect there building up something in the background that gradually lead to a major campaign there which I assume will be related to Slaanesh and the aelves.

 

For the record, I believe the following expand each realm:

- Azyr - stormcast, small section in beasts of chaos

- Ashqy - fyreslayers, khorne, anything about hammerhal, large section in core book, seems to commonly show up in other stories and battletomes and is likely most fleshed out realm

- shyish - legions of Nagash, flesh eater courts, nighthaunt, large section in core book

- ghyran - Slyvaneth, nurgle, large section in core book

- Chamon - Tzeentch, khahadron overlords, gloomspite gitz

- Ghur - bonesplitterz, beastclaw raiders, ironjawz

- Ulgu - daughters of Khaine

- Hysh - small section in Deepkin

(Deepkin kind of touches on a lot of realms but only really the seas for obvious reasons. Focus on ghyran and shyish from what I remember)

 

Don't forget some of the Black Library books. 'Nagash, Undying King' really fleshed out Shyish

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On 1/24/2019 at 10:45 PM, Yoshiya said:

Yea, id actually say that Hysh is the least expanded upon of all the realms. They haven't really said which chaos god is dominant there (assume Tzeentch but he's Chamon too) and all we know is that a bunch of yet unreleased 'light' aelves are there.

The core book stuff was brief too and I think we only have a very limited about of art for the realm. I expect there building up something in the background that gradually lead to a major campaign there which I assume will be related to Slaanesh and the aelves.

 

For the record, I believe the following expand each realm:

- Azyr - stormcast, small section in beasts of chaos

- Ashqy - fyreslayers, khorne, anything about hammerhal, large section in core book, seems to commonly show up in other stories and battletomes and is likely most fleshed out realm

- shyish - legions of Nagash, flesh eater courts, nighthaunt, large section in core book

- ghyran - Slyvaneth, nurgle, large section in core book

- Chamon - Tzeentch, khahadron overlords, gloomspite gitz

- Ghur - bonesplitterz, beastclaw raiders, ironjawz

- Ulgu - daughters of Khaine

- Hysh - small section in Deepkin

(Deepkin kind of touches on a lot of realms but only really the seas for obvious reasons. Focus on ghyran and shyish from what I remember)

 

Don't forget some of the Black Library books. 'Nagash, Undying King' really fleshed out Shyish

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17 minutes ago, Nightcast Eternal said:

I agree, the Shaggoth is and alright sculpt, but the other Dragon Ogres really have not aged well.

That is weird, because they are honestly pretty new sculpts in regards to stuff carried over from Warhammer Fantasy.  You should have seen the Dragon Ogre sculpts prior to the current plastic ones.

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Just now, Skabnoze said:

That is weird, because they are honestly pretty new sculpts in regards to stuff carried over from Warhammer Fantasy.  You should have seen the Dragon Ogre sculpts prior to the current plastic ones.

I'm glad I didn't yikes

 

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Just now, Nightcast Eternal said:

I'm glad I didn't yikes

 

I really like the current Dragon Ogres.  Why do you say they have not aged well?  I cannot see anything poor about the sculpt.  They are Ogre/Dragon centaur guys and the sculpt seems pretty appropriate for that.  I get that aesthetics are personal and not everyone will like every concept, but I don't see what about them has not aged well.  There is nothing technically wrong with the sculpts that I can see.  They are not lacking detail for what they are and the proportions & anatomy does not seem wrong.  The GW plastic Minotaurs on the other hand have muscles that simply do not make any anatomical sense.  I would say that those have aged poorly - but to each their own.

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1 hour ago, Skabnoze said:

But the combo battletomes and mono battletomes are still following the same basic format - with some differences to account for handling sub-allegiances.  But each book still seems to contain allegiance abilities, spell lores, relics, command traits, and battalions.

That is obvious.

1 hour ago, Skabnoze said:

Are you saying that you think combo-books are temporary and they won't ever come back to those combo battletomes in the future?  History tells me that GW will rewrite every army book at least one time before potentially dropping them from the game (and army removal is quite infrequent).

That's what the whole discussion was about - assumption that GW is moving from mono-faction battletomes to LoN and GSG combo battletomes. And I made my post disagreeing with it. I believe it's temporary. Now, we might see 1-2 more combo battletomes and sure there will be rewrites especially for fan-favourite Legions of Nagash but I believe that GW will mostly focus on mono faction battletomes in their future releases. At least that's what I want to believe as this seperation of WHFB factions was one of the things that attracted me into AoS (and wargaming). I understand that there is no room for each and every little subfaction to receive its own battletome but I won't accept pulling back as f.e. if they decided there is no need for Fyreslayers as a faction and they will be pulled into DWARF BATTLETOME - hell no. If I see they are going that direction it might be the very moment they loose a customer. I'm really, really, tired of classic dwarfs, orks, elfs, humans generic factions and AoS is a leader for me in doing exactly the opposite- creating great, original factions with a strong unique theme.

EDIT: to be hinest, there might be more left-overs + brand new models battletomes which I hate to even think about - Malerion Elves and Tyrion Elves. In my opinion AoS era minis look waaay better and each time they use old models to fill the gaps in new battletomes make me sad (grots and spiderfang in GSG, almost all demons for Khorne, Tzeentzch and Nurgle, witch elves in DoK).

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1 minute ago, Aryann said:

That is obvious.

That's what the whole discussion was about - assumption that GW is moving from mono-faction battletomes to LoN and GSG combo battletomes. And I made my post disagreeing with it. I believe it's temporary. Now, we might see 1-2 more combo battletomes and sure there will be rewrites especially for fan-favourite Legions of Nagash but I believe that GW will mostly focus on mono faction battletomes in their future releases. At least that's what I want to believe as this seperation of WHFB factions was one of the things that attracted me into AoS (and wargaming). I understand that there is no room for each and every little subfaction to receive its own battletome but I won't accept pulling back as f.e. if they decided there is no need for Fyreslayers as a faction and they will be pulled into DWARF BATTLETOME - hell no. If I see they are going that direction it might be the very moment they loose a customer. I'm really, really, tired of classic dwarfs, orks, elfs, humans generic factions and AoS is a leader for me in doing exactly the opposite- creating great, original factions with a strong unique theme.

Well, if they get rid of classic dwarfs then they will lose a customer with me. I doubt Fyreslayers will be grouped with Dispossessed unless they do something with Gotrek. It would take some twisting to do so since as far as I know, Gotrek has no dealings with Dispossessed besides being originally from a similar culture. 

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I guess tastes are very personal,i love old dwarfs elfs etc and HATE the steampunk dwarfs,vampire water elfs etc

Also if gw ignore the old armys they gonna loose me as client.

Im new and i havent played to phantasy but i have bougth a 100% new dispossesed army and some high elfs,i hope gw dont be ****** and continue releasing those battletomes for old armys.

 

So people can choose betwen old aestetics armys or new only due to what they like more and not due to who have the more broken battletome

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Just now, Ironbreaker said:

Well, if they get rid of classic dwarfs then they will lose a customer with me. I doubt Fyreslayers will be grouped with Dispossessed unless they do something with Gotrek. It would take some twisting to do so since as far as I know, Gotrek has no dealings with Dispossessed besides being originally from a similar culture. 

I fully understand people who own pre-AoS factions that they want and need a battletome. I just don't want to make all-in-one factions that in my opinion no longer fit. Even Fyreslayers and Dispossessed although  being dwarf are now very different and don't much. Not to mention Fyreslayers and Kharadron Overlords combo. That would be a monstrosity, not a combo-faction.

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5 minutes ago, Aryann said:

I fully understand people who own pre-AoS factions that they want and need a battletome. I just don't want to make all-in-one factions that in my opinion no longer fit. Even Fyreslayers and Dispossessed although  being dwarf are now very different and don't much. Not to mention Fyreslayers and Kharadron Overlords combo. That would be a monstrosity, not a combo-faction.

I think GW plans is kind of laid out on the AoS website about how they going to organize the army in the future with maybe the exception of lumping all the Aelf forces together. So far it been  accurate minus the fact that Gitmob got axed from the grots.

I think they still keep Fyreslayer and KO separately, along BCR and Gutbusters, and Bonesplitterz and Ironjawz.

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5 hours ago, prochuvi said:

Sure he did great but the result was no kharadron at the top 10

 

Also maths and stats dont work as you have said,if one people did good then everyone can do it?the whats the point in win rates?

Kharadron,fyreslayers and ironjawz are very weak and need huge buffs.

 

One kharadron doing great at one tournament(that finished 11th so  isnt so great) meaning nothing in a global context where one dude do good with them and then 30 more do it bad with them

KO finished 11th out of 200, and only because he lost to the champion in the final game. Also, the difference between 2nd and 11th was miniscule since they were all on 5/6. The only player who went 6/6 was the champ.

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