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11 hours ago, Skabnoze said:

That does not seem likely to ever happen.  Maybe if they decided to break Skaven off into it's own full Grand Alliance - but they appear to be solidly within the Chaos camp for AoS.  A full battletome for every skaven clan would make them comprise roughly half of the entire Chaos Grand Alliance and that feels very out of place given that they have expressed many times that the Horned Rat is the currently the lesser of all the Chaos gods.  They simply did not set up Skaven within AoS to take on such a large role that each clan should warrant their own distinct model range and dedicated battletome. 

Brand new AoS factions seem more to focus around a theme/subject rather than race. Flying troops and airships, sea creatures and chaos gods treated seperetely for their theme - gore, magic, illness, seduction. 

Skaven are much more than just "rat people". Skyre faction fits the role of advanced tech. Moulder is a great material for mutants race like GSC in 40k. Eshin as pure assassin force. Pestilence is obvious. Especially the first two seem like an easy material for battletome and expansions. Leaving them and whole Skaven just with a battletome seems like a waste. 

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10 hours ago, Skabnoze said:

You could make the same argument for every race and the various subfactions within battletomes - such as Deepkin Enclaves, Sylvaneth houses, Daughter's of Khaine temples, Fyreslayer lodges, etc.  Honestly, the described system for the Skaven battletome sounds more flexible and diverse than what those other battletomes use to add that layer of diversity.  Even the major chaos gods have their followers spread across all of the realms and a large variety of mortal followers that one could argue diversify based upon the realms they are in.

I really like Skaven, but they don't seem to be a unique snowflake compared to any other race in regards to why they should have distinct clan books rather than a single unified tome that still provides them diverse build options.

It;s weird how somebody can agree with you in such an opposing manner, haha 😂Read what I was replying to, and see that I agree that it's a good thing to keep it in one tome. Just not the argument that the power ranking of the chaos gods in the lore should have any influence on the discussions  

As to your comment about 'they don't seem to be an unique snowflake'  (with all the connotations of that phrase). Seem is the keyword there. GW controls the story, the background of each clan is unique enough and GW could easily expand on it if needed. In units with Pestilence and Skryre you have a bigger roster than Ironjaws for an extreme example. but compare it to AoS releases like DoK, ID, KO. DoK 15 scrolls, 6 boxes. ID, 16 scrolls 11 boxes. KO 12 sets. Pestilence currently has 7 sets and Skryre 12. With two unique playstyles in the grand Alliance. Add two multi purpose and your are easily equal to that.
If the differences in the your examples mean there is enough there for unique rosters and playstyles. Absolutely the game would be better with them as different factions, as they would function as different armies just share a root in the lore.

all in all, still like the umbrella tome but with a little effort it could have been separate tomes. Just like spider riders could have been a separate faction/tome with a little effort. (just an example closer to your heart I guess ;) )

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@Aryann I think that's more because most old world races started out 30 years ago or so. So when they started they were one trick faction focused armies. Over time as GW added more models the number of tools and themes each army had increased over and over again. Skaven are a prime example of an army that has steadily grown and grown in variety and diversity through its range.

 

Idoneth are brand shiny new, they have a very tight theme and focus because of how new they are and its much easier to create a solid identity with a strict theme. Give it 10 years and perhaps we'll see those themes broaden or deepen. they could add ship and land forces to Idoneth representing them pushing further in land with invasions and wars; or they could add huge sea serpents and beasties of the sea and build on the core theme. 

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29 minutes ago, Aryann said:

Brand new AoS factions seem more to focus around a theme/subject rather than race. Flying troops and airships, sea creatures and chaos gods treated seperetely for their theme - gore, magic, illness, seduction. 

 

Actually outside Chaos, the first releases were very much realm themed, Heavens (Stormcast), Fire (Slayers), Metal (Kharadron), Life (Sylvaneth), etc.

 

I have to say that I really don't believe we will ever get new releases for stuff like Idoneth outside "add-on games". I might be wrong of course.

 

The old fantasy armies were actually pretty similar between each other in the beginning. After all they were mix of popular historical themes and fantasy.  For example High/Dark elves being mixture of Rome, Byzantium, Middle eastern horse tribes and classic Elven fiction from D&D and Tolkien. Most armies still had pretty samey selection of troops that you typically have in a historical game.

Edited by Jamopower
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55 minutes ago, Klamm said:

Aren't the Silver Tower minis on shared sprues? They released the Ogroid and the foot Gaunt Summoner alongside Tzeentch (oh, and the Knight-Questor for SCE). I mean sure, that might be a blip, but I'd be surprised if they didn't repackage the Deathrunner at some point (curious that it hasn't been mentioned). After all, for better or worse this release has embraced a degree of asset recycling, so why not give clan Eshin their only new hero in AoS? 

GW took some positive steps in releasing some of the original starter set separately (Vandus and Korgos Khul). I think the Bloodsecrator and Khorgos box is sold out, but the models are still available in one half of the original starter, as they split the factions into Thunderstrike Brotherhood and Goreblade Warband boxes. While I feel for SCE player being unable to get a Relictor separately (well, other than Ebay), having them disappear entirely is way worse.

The whole limited edition model question is more pertinent when it's a distinct model (like the Ogroid or Khorgorath). When it's just an alternative sculpt of an existing unit, like the Silver Tower blue horrors,  it's not such a problem. The caveat to this is when there's a quality disparity between the up-to-date looking limited edition sculpt and the 'official' model: a hideous hunk of resin/metal. The webstore  Rat Ogors beside the Spire ones are like... well, Mantic beside Citadel. 

But there's no definitive precedent. After all, the Darkoath Chieftain, Warpriest and Fyreslayer from Silver Tower are not on sale. Are they to be released alongside their parent faction getting an update? Who knows? 

 

I mean, the fact that they've implied no new models *technically* doesn't preclude them from putting the ST Deathrunner up for pre-order on the 16th. Fingers crossed for Eshin fans. 

Darkoath Chieftain is available: https://www.games-workshop.com/en-NZ/darkoath-chieftain

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16 minutes ago, Jamopower said:

Actually outside Chaos, the first releases were very much realm themed, Heavens (Stormcast), Fire (Slayers), Metal (Kharadron), Life (Sylvaneth), etc.

 

I have to say that I really don't believe we will ever get new releases for stuff like Idoneth outside "add-on games". I might be wrong of course.

 

The old fantasy armies were actually pretty similar between each other in the beginning. After all they were mix of popular historical themes and fantasy.  For example High/Dark elves being mixture of Rome, Byzantium, Middle eastern horse tribes and classic Elven fiction from D&D and Tolkien. Most armies still had pretty samey selection of troops that you typically have in a historical game.

Okay then that's a bold claim cotton. Let's see how it plays out. 

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1 hour ago, Aryann said:

Brand new AoS factions seem more to focus around a theme/subject rather than race.

yeah I look at it as AoS is roughly about [adjective][noun] factions. so flying dwarves, fungoid goblins, gym bunny orcs, swimming elves, etc etc. I mean it's a very loose idea and breaks down with a bit of scrutiny but I think squint and it just about makes some sense and gets them away from staid fantasy tropes.

it's why I thought Dispossessed were in a tricky place as they're very much just the Dwarfiest Dwarves that ever did Dwarf.  If they do reinvent them, I think, it would be cool to really lean in on the elemental 'earth' quality (as opposed to their fire and air cousins (and the hitherto unseen nautilus captaining Deep Sea Duardin).

in fact I thought you could really go to town on the idea that Dwarves slowly turn to stone/earth if they use magic, but rather than being a terrible fate like befalls the Chaos Dwarves, it's actually a natural evolution, just it was never fully understood so instead magic became a taboo amongst them.

So rather than becoming petrified statues, the very few Dwarf magic users who work in harmony with, and can master, magic actually achieve the true Duardin's final form, that of living rock. could be a way of introducing one or two thematically friendly wizards into the army and open up possibilities for rune laden living statues as big centre piece models.

I have an idea about how to pull it all together but as ever ThIS iS The RUmoUR THreaD so I'll shut my dirty mouth.

Edited by JPjr
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GW have released models individually but they have never broken up a sprue as far as I am aware. This the problem with the island of blood stuff. 

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That's one of the reasons why I don't we get additional releases for those factions themed very strongly. There's so much more to explore and when you think of it, there's not so much you can do with a one theme in a fantasy setting before you start to repeat. In addition to fighty, priesty and wizardy character, you have light and heavy cavalry, line infantry, elite infranty, shooters, warmachines, monsters, skirmishers and chariots. I believe for example the Idoneth range already more or less ticks all of them.

 

If you think backwards. Old high elves had gazillion versions of the same heavy infantry unit, which just led to people theming their army around one of them, which is sort of what Age of Sigmar has been catering at least for now.  It looks like we'll get a new elven army, a dwarf army, a human (stormcast) army, a chaos army and an Orcs and goblins army with changing regularity.  Which has it's perks, after all new stuff is usually more interesting than old. Especially as you can still sell the old stuff for new recruits. 

Edited by Jamopower

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@Jamopower I think opposite releasing new stuff for existing armies is easy money and much welcome addition for any player.

Take Idoneth they can easily use Kraken alike Monster ridden by some kind of hero. 

I think its great move to refresh factions in future with releases like :

- 1-2 dual kits whatever they are hero,infantry 

- endless Spells 

- Battletome 

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It is, but I would say it's even better to get that elf player to invest in to a completely new elven army that is themed around, say Fire or Lions, that he can also ally with the older army. 

 

And of course the terrain kits and endless spells seem to be given for everyone. They look to be quite easy to do and can be produced for cheap in China without influencing the production of the Nottingham plant.

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Thing is having 5 Aelf factions that are all small armies with very niche focuses within them runs the risk that you will get many who only play 1 of those 5. This means that GW has to release something new/updated for each of the 5 every so often to keep those gamers interested. Long term you can end up losing playesr because an army hasn't seen an update in years because you've got another 40 armies in the same game. 

 

Now if you have a single big army with focuses within it then you've got only 1 army to release an update for. Even if the new model is niche within the army there's a greater chance that more of your fans will buy it. Plus they dont' get that "I've been ignored" attitude as fast. So now you've got fewer armies, with diversity within them and a greater chance of players buying more models and changing their tactics. 

 

Gits and Skaven show this perfectly. You could have 5 or 6 Clan armies each with their own book and rules. However a Pestilens player might only play Pestilens. They've less encouragment to start other Skaven forces because of the allies limits. If they want to go Clan Skyre its not a slow evolution its a full "new army" approach. 

However put them in one book and now even though there's only 1 new model it counts for all the Clans; there's more chance that a Pestilens player will steadily add more and more skyre or Moulder and then widen their collection. 

 

Mechanically you end up with roughly the same; you still have themed armies on the tabletop, but behind the scenes you've got far more encouragement and potential to have more money spent on factions and fewer factions in general to update. This means more regular updates for each army, that means happier more content gamers and more purchases. It's basically win win for all involved. 

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I like those Slaves to Darkness rumours, I guess it's hibernation time till summer. 😮 

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you know what, if consolidation is the way forward then call me crazy but I reckon they could go one further with that and lump all vaguely related factions into groups. I'm just knocking ideas around here but maybe call them, Big Leagues, or Super Unions or even Grand Alliances.

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14 minutes ago, Overread said:

Thing is having 5 Aelf factions that are all small armies with very niche focuses within them runs the risk that you will get many who only play 1 of those 5. This means that GW has to release something new/updated for each of the 5 every so often to keep those gamers interested. Long term you can end up losing playesr because an army hasn't seen an update in years because you've got another 40 armies in the same game. 

 

Now if you have a single big army with focuses within it then you've got only 1 army to release an update for. Even if the new model is niche within the army there's a greater chance that more of your fans will buy it. Plus they dont' get that "I've been ignored" attitude as fast. So now you've got fewer armies, with diversity within them and a greater chance of players buying more models and changing their tactics. 

 

Gits and Skaven show this perfectly. You could have 5 or 6 Clan armies each with their own book and rules. However a Pestilens player might only play Pestilens. They've less encouragment to start other Skaven forces because of the allies limits. If they want to go Clan Skyre its not a slow evolution its a full "new army" approach. 

However put them in one book and now even though there's only 1 new model it counts for all the Clans; there's more chance that a Pestilens player will steadily add more and more skyre or Moulder and then widen their collection. 

 

Mechanically you end up with roughly the same; you still have themed armies on the tabletop, but behind the scenes you've got far more encouragement and potential to have more money spent on factions and fewer factions in general to update. This means more regular updates for each army, that means happier more content gamers and more purchases. It's basically win win for all involved. 

That's exactly my point, if you replace Skaven with Elves, it's pretty much the system I was describing (and we have?). I believe there is still much of baggage from the Old world involved and many still consider High elves and Dark elves being a different thing, but of course I don't know how it is for newer players. At least the fluff with the free cities and elven heroes working together seems to imply that the old split is not anymore a thing.

 

And if you compare to 40k releases from past years. There aren't so many additional releases to existing armies. Orks got their ages old stuff updated and chaos chapters have got expanded, but otherwise it has been a new character here and there and completely new forces.

Edited by Jamopower

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@jamopower - the thing is if you look at a lot of 40K armies they are quite complete. Tyranids went through a semi recent phase and got a lot of new big monsters added to their army. Necrons and Tau also got big chunks of models and a little further back and Dark Eldar did get that too. Basically a lot of 40K armies are at a stage where they are pretty full of models. Adding new things isn't as needed because theyv'e already got a wide roster; that's why you see GW adding things like flying units that remain flying and super heavies and lords of war. 

Fantasy was like that until AoS hit; plus fantasy had gone through a long phase where GW had openly ignored it for the most part. So if you're looking at recent history then sure many armies were ignored and fantasy was falling apart. Bleeding and losing players all the time and not getting many more in. AoS was to try adn counter, but swing the hammer too far in many areas that proved bad for medium and long term interest. 

 

I can see GW reuniting the old Dark and high elf armies somewhat; uniting both together is trickier because visually they are vastly different and lore wise they are very different too. You've got noble, generally nice high elves alongside darker ones that are happier to stick a blade in you or malicious or greedy etc... They are two very powerful opposing viewpoints on the world. Uniting them could work, but I'd say it could only work if GW were to re-release one half with new revamped models that better unified the combined appearance of the army. 

 

It's one thing to have orks and trolls and goblins together because they are different species; but when you've got the same species in the same army it seems odd to have one with long cone helms and the other half totally different .

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3 minutes ago, Overread said:

@jamopower - the thing is if you look at a lot of 40K armies they are quite complete. Tyranids went through a semi recent phase and got a lot of new big monsters added to their army. Necrons and Tau also got big chunks of models and a little further back and Dark Eldar did get that too. Basically a lot of 40K armies are at a stage where they are pretty full of models. Adding new things isn't as needed because theyv'e already got a wide roster; that's why you see GW adding things like flying units that remain flying and super heavies and lords of war. 

Fantasy was like that until AoS hit; plus fantasy had gone through a long phase where GW had openly ignored it for the most part. So if you're looking at recent history then sure many armies were ignored and fantasy was falling apart. Bleeding and losing players all the time and not getting many more in. AoS was to try adn counter, but swing the hammer too far in many areas that proved bad for medium and long term interest. 

 

I can see GW reuniting the old Dark and high elf armies somewhat; uniting both together is trickier because visually they are vastly different and lore wise they are very different too. You've got noble, generally nice high elves alongside darker ones that are happier to stick a blade in you or malicious or greedy etc... They are two very powerful opposing viewpoints on the world. Uniting them could work, but I'd say it could only work if GW were to re-release one half with new revamped models that better unified the combined appearance of the army. 

 

It's one thing to have orks and trolls and goblins together because they are different species; but when you've got the same species in the same army it seems odd to have one with long cone helms and the other half totally different .

Imo what should be done is a separation inside a Bt of Uglu and Hyish Aelves. Those who decided to follow Malerion and those who follow the ways of Teclis and Tyrion.

Wanderers have their own identity and all they need is a behemot and a BT with reviewed rules to have a full army.

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Is that really much different from say Skaven? If you paint mixture of high, dark, wood and newer elves with the same theme, you'll get quite coherent force as the bottom designs are pretty similar.

 

And as with 40k, I agree with the complete forces. Thus I would compare Idoneth etc. with Custodes, Deathwatch and such. New variations of the old "super themes". Don't believe we will get a new wave of Custodes anytime soon either. Although the Genestealer cults get new models soon, so you never know. I guess in the end it will all be dependent on how much the specific themes sell models.

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It's quite different because at their core Skaven are skaven and behave much the same. Skyre and Pestilens are still back stabbing murder rats. The Aelves though have utterly different morals and social structures and viewpoints. 

 

Sure they can unit against a common foe, but their societies are just so widely different and opposed that to try and unify them as a single army would require something major to shift in the lore. Either some major retcons or some kind of massive event - eg a plague wipes out most Aelves forcing the remains together etc... But even then you'd have issues. 

 

Finally you've got history - whilst some would like to see AoS totally divorced of the Old World; in the real world we live in that's just not going to happen. AoS is not a brand new game; its a game with history and legacy and on some level its got to uphold to that. 

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I highly doubt a Dragonlord would ally with a Corsair.  Even by aesthetics they are quite diferent.

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6 minutes ago, Thiagoma said:

I highly doubt a Dragonlord would ally with a Corsair.

Maybe not, but a member of the Order Draconis might/would with a Scourge Privateer.

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I believe that they co-exist in same communities as per current fluff?

 

As said, I believe that the whole split to the old WHFB armies is historical baggage. It's more what people feel, than how it goes currently. Of course the model range reflects that in some degree as well, but probably that's also why they seem to make some curating of the range all the time.

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3 minutes ago, Overread said:

It's quite different because at their core Skaven are skaven and behave much the same. Skyre and Pestilens are still back stabbing murder rats. The Aelves though have utterly different morals and social structures and viewpoints. 

 

Sure they can unit against a common foe, but their societies are just so widely different and opposed that to try and unify them as a single army would require something major to shift in the lore. Either some major retcons or some kind of massive event - eg a plague wipes out most Aelves forcing the remains together etc... But even then you'd have issues. 

 

Finally you've got history - whilst some would like to see AoS totally divorced of the Old World; in the real world we live in that's just not going to happen. AoS is not a brand new game; its a game with history and legacy and on some level its got to uphold to that. 

Once Destruction is taken care of this year, I would like to believe GW will turn their attention to sorting out the loose-end Order factions. Perhaps there is a reason we haven't seen a Free City Battletome yet. It would seem to be the easy answer, but like you said, some of these factions would have a hard time working together in the same city unless there was a common foe to unite against. Plus, most of the Order factions have pretty much the same units (Order Draconis & Order Serpentus for example). 

If Gitmob and Greenskins are not being continued, but are going to still exist in the background for those who still own the models & armies, then it's fair to suspect the same is going to happen for some of the Order Aelves

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With the whole bigger or smaller factions thing it's worth highlighting that there was clearly a point in time when they moved between a plan of having lots and lots of sub factions and really playing up the differences between elements that had previously made up the same army to aiming to give both the sub factions and the overall faction more depth by highlighting their differences and also how they then come together. The first obvious examples of this were Legions of Nagash and then the Beasts pulling smaller factions back together (e.g. Monsters, Brayherd and Warherd) . Then Gloomspite did similar and now Skaven since. They could have expanded a specific element further but clearly the strategy has changed with these now 

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Still at the same period of time they released the Idoneth, which would have been max two units in the Dark elven army if they had been released for WHFB. So I would believe we'll get mix of both in the future. Tie in books to wrap up the older factions together (a Free cities book or few, with universal allegiances for Aelf, Duardin and Free people would be easy, as with one for ogres and then some new stuff like the rumoured Darkoath.

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