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54 minutes ago, discoking said:

Genuine question. If not human then what are they? They have human anatomy,human faces,normal hair-do's....they look pretty much human to me albeit dead reforged humans.

If it looks like a duck,swims like a duck and quacks like duck then it's a duck. 

If a human is a duck then a Stormcast is a Goose - Compare the size of the average stormcast to the average aelf or human and the Stormcast tower over them. They are essentially the Order equivalent of Chaos Warriors - super powered and sized and birthed from human origins, but twisted. Whilst Chaos warps the original body; the Stormcast is born from the souls of those who cry out to Sigmar for revenge on Chaos; from powerful individuals who die in Sigmar's embrace and whom he takes up through bolts of lightning to be reforged within his Realm. 

Stormcast are not human, they appear sort of human, but they are not. They are capable of rebirth through Sigmar through the reforging; but they lose a part of themselves every single time. Some recall their past some recall nothing. They don't breed (far as I'm aware) they might love; but they are mostly a living weapon. 

 

Humans on the other hand are building civilizations; born naturally, are smaller in stature and size and form the bulk (along with Aelves and Dwarves) of the peoples of many Realms. 

 

Humans are very much going to get an Order army, at least one if not two I would wager. Free Peoples is the popular focus because it already has a large population of humans to build an army from and has rules in the Generals Handbook. When that army will come is known only be GW. 

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1 hour ago, Skabnoze said:

.

My only worry about getting a book release soon for Skaven is that they won't make a big release wave like Gloomspite Gits and that would be a really big shame.  Skaven deserve a full-blown overhaul style update and that seems more likely to happen in a later release window.  Remember that 40k is still going to alternate with AoS and take up big release windows for the year.

I legitimately cant see GW fusing all the Clans back together when they can make more money with less effort by just selling 4 clans that can ally. 

I mean they have to make 18 units alone in plastic afaik. I dont think GW have ever done that much in a single release post WFB frankly. Not even Stormcast. 

By keeping them separate its much easier. You fold Clanrats, Stormvermin and Grey Seers into every faction since every clan has expendable chumps and their slightly better bodyguards , using Skyre as an example they'd   get a plastic Dual Acolyte kit, Endless Spells, plastic Weapon Team Kit, scenery item (since thats a thing people forget) and a plastic kit that can make either a Warlock Engineer or arch Warlorck.

5 kits are an easier sell then 18.

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Skaven don't need a huge number of new kits to combine up, especially if GW reunites them. 

Plus it makes sense, things like Clan Rats and Slaves are going to be shared over most of the clans anyway so there's 1 or two units that already will have to be universally balanced between them.

Then you've got the fact that alliances within a Battletome removes the points and count limits of the normal allies system, its far more flexible without having to change anything to the core rules of the game itself. 

Finally it means that if GW releases a new "clan moulder" style or themed unit it counts as a new thing for all the Skaven clans. Otherwise they've got to support 3 or 4 armies with new releases, updates and attention. 

 

 

That latter point is a big one and I think it was fine when AoS was in its original form whereby we had a lot of small armies which were likely going to be cycled through (retiring some, bringing new ones in). However today they are approaching it more "normally" for GW. Supporting more armies is hard, whilst if they combine things up it makes things a lot easier and, honestly, better for most involved. So long as they balance it like goblins then you'll still have viable mono-clan factions to pick from, whilst having the total freedom to mix and match if you want. 

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Slaves dont exist anymore weirdly. But our ideas are diametrically opposed depending on what GWs army release will follow. The older minimalist style (5 odd kits) or the newer fusions. I feel the fusions are only worth it if theres not enough material to spin out or its just several pre existing kits that got split needlessly during the initial AOS (ala BOC or LON).

Entirely unsubstantiated but I feel that Gloomspite started off as a moonclan only deal before they decided to throw in the Spiders and the Trogs (whom probably had been finished further back but needed the right release time) at the last minuite.

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I don't think it was last minute, but I do agree that the original plan was likely to split and keep them split. Dont' forget AoS at launch made factions of Shadowblades - an army with 1 unique model and 1 half of a duel kit. It also had a couple of factions with only 1 model in them. 

I think as 2.0 has firmed up the market GW is changing and addressing things and has been doing so through releases that pull some forces back together in part or in full. They've changed their approach to AoS for the better I think. Of course Skaven had a Battletome out already so that might have changed things forever for them - we just don't know. Only GW knows the future and they are cagey at best when it comes to things more than around 3 months in advance. A few things we know of are coming later - either directly (eg Sisters of Battle) or through deduction (Slaanesh). 

I do think its a failing for AoS that GW can't release at least their long term plan for what armies will look like in terms of what models are already released. Then again it might be delibrate so that GW can keep a lid on production demands; rather than revealing all and risking going out of stock as people start to build armies and buy up models en-mass over the range of "to come" armies that might be a year or more out (that also creates very impatient fans) 

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39 minutes ago, Overread said:

<snip>

Stormcast are not human, they appear sort of human, but they are not.

<snip>

Except that all Stormcasts have the "human" keyword on their warscroll, so they are human.

Big demigod-like humans but still humans.

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I dont see them joining up all four clans. We might see skyre as the main focus but with some units from other clans, other than pestilence, added in, much like gloomspite.
I think gloomspite can probably be seen as the redux standard going forward. It's very similar to how DoK was brought back, only DoK missed out on spells and terrain.
It could be that we have another BoC on our hands with skaven, where we no new kits except spells and terrain. Most of the skaven kits from end times are still pretty good and not far off todays standards. We of course get the new warlock from carrion empire as a separate release. Only thing not readily available is the heavy weapons teams and they can just do away with them.

I'd love it if they did get a gloomspite sized overhaul but with the amount of kits they still have which are pretty serviceable I don't see it happening. The pestilence machine kits all have skyre duel builds and then you still have the stormfiends and doomwheel. We might see new stormvermin as a troop type but that could be it and they still have a full force, enough for a battletome.

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28 minutes ago, Jetengine said:

Slaves dont exist anymore weirdly. But our ideas are diametrically opposed depending on what GWs army release will follow. The older minimalist style (5 odd kits) or the newer fusions. I feel the fusions are only worth it if theres not enough material to spin out or its just several pre existing kits that got split needlessly during the initial AOS (ala BOC or LON).

Entirely unsubstantiated but I feel that Gloomspite started off as a moonclan only deal before they decided to throw in the Spiders and the Trogs (whom probably had been finished further back but needed the right release time) at the last minuite.

I think they always intend to add Trogs in, the New Dankholds have the Moonclan mushrooms and their aesthetics on them plus they also got the Nightvault release so it indicates that it was plan in advance, putting spider in the book was probably wasn't plan originally but since people ask for it and Spiderfang was a functional army range at the time despite having three unit, it was probably very easy to tack on to the release but they didn't get anything new unlike the other two. Gitmobs I think were just  too old  and their models weren't repackageable that they where phased out during the release

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4 minutes ago, RexHavoc said:

I dont see them joining up all four clans. We might see skyre as the main focus but with some units from other clans, other than pestilence, added in, much like gloomspite.
I think gloomspite can probably be seen as the redux standard going forward. It's very similar to how DoK was brought back, only DoK missed out on spells and terrain.
It could be that we have another BoC on our hands with skaven, where we no new kits except spells and terrain. Most of the skaven kits from end times are still pretty good and not far off todays standards. We of course get the new warlock from carrion empire as a separate release. Only thing not readily available is the heavy weapons teams and they can just do away with them.

I'd love it if they did get a gloomspite sized overhaul but with the amount of kits they still have which are pretty serviceable I don't see it happening. The pestilence machine kits all have skyre duel builds and then you still have the stormfiends and doomwheel. We might see new stormvermin as a troop type but that could be it and they still have a full force, enough for a battletome.

The aim of the game is to make everything plastic. Of the 18 kits I mentioned over half are finecast/metal and at least a third are monkey-rat aesthetic which is very much out of date. A LON isn't going to cut it. 

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8 minutes ago, RexHavoc said:

I dont see them joining up all four clans. We might see skyre as the main focus but with some units from other clans, other than pestilence, added in, much like gloomspite.
I think gloomspite can probably be seen as the redux standard going forward. It's very similar to how DoK was brought back, only DoK missed out on spells and terrain.
It could be that we have another BoC on our hands with skaven, where we no new kits except spells and terrain. Most of the skaven kits from end times are still pretty good and not far off todays standards. We of course get the new warlock from carrion empire as a separate release. Only thing not readily available is the heavy weapons teams and they can just do away with them.

I'd love it if they did get a gloomspite sized overhaul but with the amount of kits they still have which are pretty serviceable I don't see it happening. The pestilence machine kits all have skyre duel builds and then you still have the stormfiends and doomwheel. We might see new stormvermin as a troop type but that could be it and they still have a full force, enough for a battletome.

I'd like to see Peslins remain standalone and get updated with a new book and maybe new models and Skyre get a book with plastic acolytes and maybe new models too. Those two have enough unique character to carry themselves and then combine all the rest of the skaven into another book. Then you'd have diseased skaven, technology skaven and regular skaven.

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1 hour ago, Jetengine said:

5 kits are an easier sell then 18.

I never said that they should make a giant fused single army tome and not leave the clans separate within a broader book.  When I mentioned large release I meant that there is an awful lot of kits within skaven that need to be reworked.  Aside from some of the more recent Skryre kits and some of the larger kits they have some very old stuff and need a fair bit of kits updated.

Even 5 boxes is a fairly large release for GW nowadays and not just something they drop in a tiny release window.  I expect that at a minimum they would want to create a few new things, update some of the older core parts of the range (clanrats?), create a terrain piece, and also create an endless spells box.  I think you are talking about more than 5 boxes there but maybe not too much more.  I never stated they should have 18 kits - even Gloomspite only has about ~11 kits.  They also most assuredly want to drop all resin products from their main business and leave it to just Forgeworld as soon as they possibly can.

But honestly, if there was an army to drop a ton of kits for, Skaven really seem like the place for the GW dev team to go wild.  And I say that as someone who is not a Skaven player.  There is a whole lot of ideas and visual themes there that they could go crazy with and a lot of that is relatively unexplored territory in modern AoS (genetic manipulation, frankenstein monsters, mad scientists, etc).

Edited by Skabnoze
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53 minutes ago, Jetengine said:

Entirely unsubstantiated but I feel that Gloomspite started off as a moonclan only deal before they decided to throw in the Spiders and the Trogs (whom probably had been finished further back but needed the right release time) at the last minuite.

Gloomspite, Moonclan, and Destruction as a whole is much better off by the inclusion of all 3 into the same book than it would have been with a Moonclan only book and leaving Troggs and Spiderfang off as their own semi-ignored allegiances.  Honestly, I'd say that the entire player base is better off by having books like this as it makes a larger variety of lists more viable which means more variety in play and less stagnation.

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25 minutes ago, RexHavoc said:

I'd love it if they did get a gloomspite sized overhaul but with the amount of kits they still have which are pretty serviceable I don't see it happening. The pestilence machine kits all have skyre duel builds and then you still have the stormfiends and doomwheel. We might see new stormvermin as a troop type but that could be it and they still have a full force, enough for a battletome.

The dual nature of those kits leads me to think that Pestilens would be rolled into a larger multi-clan book similar to Beasts of Chaos or Gloomspite.  Just from a packaging standpoint.

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16 minutes ago, bsharitt said:

I'd like to see Peslins remain standalone and get updated with a new book and maybe new models and Skyre get a book with plastic acolytes and maybe new models too. Those two have enough unique character to carry themselves and then combine all the rest of the skaven into another book. Then you'd have diseased skaven, technology skaven and regular skaven.

I don't think we will see Skaven take up that much of a share within the Chaos Grand Alliance.  I expect they will probably combine them all together but in a way that lets them all be played as separate allegiances but with some shared common stuff.  So like Legions of Nagash, Beasts of Chaos, or Gloomspite (all slightly different), but with a decent amount of model updates mixed in (not just a book release).  At least, that is what I would hope to see.

There is enough cool themes that GW could very well make 2-3 separate army books, but I don't think they will want to support that many separate books for them.  One book that contains multiple armies would easily suffice.  It would also allow them to concentrate on updating a section of that range, leaving a couple of them small & niche, and then have an avenue to expand a year or two down the road.  Think of Gloomspite for example.  They concentrated mainly on Moonclan and fleshed them out quite a bit.  Spiderfang has no new models, but it has some expanded rules and is a very ripe allegiance & theme for GW to explore a year or two down the road when they want to rewrite the Gloomspite book.  I would expect at that time that there would be little, if anything, new for Moonclan and instead they would bulk out Spiderfang.  The Legions of Nagash & Beasts of Chaos books are in a much similar state where they can reissue those books at a later date and expand one of the small sub-factions within the book such as Soulblight, Deathrattle, Thundersworn, War Host, etc.

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5 hours ago, Blueraven84 said:

Battletome, armybook whatever you want to call it

People need to be more clear with their rumours.  Almost had a sliver of hope for my Black Templars 🤣

Edited by Sete

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2 hours ago, Overread said:

If a human is a duck then a Stormcast is a Goose - Compare the size of the average stormcast to the average aelf or human and the Stormcast tower over them. They are essentially the Order equivalent of Chaos Warriors - super powered and sized and birthed from human origins, but twisted. Whilst Chaos warps the original body; the Stormcast is born from the souls of those who cry out to Sigmar for revenge on Chaos; from powerful individuals who die in Sigmar's embrace and whom he takes up through bolts of lightning to be reforged within his Realm. 

Stormcast are not human, they appear sort of human, but they are not. They are capable of rebirth through Sigmar through the reforging; but they lose a part of themselves every single time. Some recall their past some recall nothing. They don't breed (far as I'm aware) they might love; but they are mostly a living weapon. 

 

Humans on the other hand are building civilizations; born naturally, are smaller in stature and size and form the bulk (along with Aelves and Dwarves) of the peoples of many Realms. 

 

Humans are very much going to get an Order army, at least one if not two I would wager. Free Peoples is the popular focus because it already has a large population of humans to build an army from and has rules in the Generals Handbook. When that army will come is known only be GW. 

Stormcast are Humans.  

Saying Stormcast are not humans, is like saying  captain america or the flash is not human because super powers.

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2 hours ago, Ironbreaker said:

I'm going to go out on a limb and say, Dispossessed confirmed. 

longbeard head.png

Nice!  This means all of my old night goblins with stolen dwarf stuff will still match up with the new Moonclan models.  I was curious how that would pan out.  Thanks for the picture!

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1 hour ago, xking said:

Stormcast are Humans.  

Saying Stormcast are not humans, is like saying  captain america or the flash is not human because super powers.

You two are arguing different things I think.

Is a Space Marine a human?  Sure, technically yes they are just genetically modified super humans.  Stormcast Eternals are pretty much the same concept.

I think when most people say that AoS needs a human faction, and also the concept @Overread was driving at, is the idea of the “Everyman” faction that we as players can personally identify with.  Think of the Imperial Guard from 40k for example.  Just mostly random human guys whose only major difference is the universe we were born into.

It’s the same concept used throughout most fantasy narratives.  The common hero from a modest background who rises to a seemingly impossible task.  For example Bilbo & Frodo Baggins, Luke Skywalker, Felix Jaeger, Dr Watson, Rick Grimes, Edmund Dantès, Walter White, etc.  A fantastical setting such as Age of Sigmar is great with fantastical factions and characters, but having a faction that people can identify with usually helps to ground the setting.  Age of Sigmar currently has a big hole for that concept.

Edited by Skabnoze
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4 hours ago, Skabnoze said:

Gloomspite, Moonclan, and Destruction as a whole is much better off by the inclusion of all 3 into the same book than it would have been with a Moonclan only book and leaving Troggs and Spiderfang off as their own semi-ignored allegiances.  Honestly, I'd say that the entire player base is better off by having books like this as it makes a larger variety of lists more viable which means more variety in play and less stagnation.

I never said it was a BAD thing, merely that as far as pattern recognition goes it seems incredibly odd to not only fuse three armies but ALSO release 11 new kits. Hence my "Feels like tacked on" comment. I mean the quality is good immaterial of the planning, its just weird is all.

Then again GW are known to swerve off plan when it comes to their favourite factions.

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4 minutes ago, Jetengine said:

I never said it was a BAD thing, merely that as far as pattern recognition goes it seems incredibly odd to not only fuse three armies but ALSO release 11 new kits. Hence my "Feels like tacked on" comment. I mean the quality is good immaterial of the planning, its just weird is all.

Then again GW are known to swerve off plan when it comes to their favourite factions.

I too am surprised at how “all in” they went with this release.  I was expecting plastic squigs finally, and finecast removed, but not much more than that.  But at the same time it is not that surprising in hind-sight since Night Goblins have always been very much a Games Workshop creation and rather unique and iconic to Warhammer.  They were crazy enough as-is that they already fit well into the Age of Sigmar over the top factions concept.

I think Skaven are quite similar to Night Goblins in that regard and they seem, more than any other remaining faction, like an almost ready made Age of Sigmar craziness template that the design team could run wild with.  They are also quite popular historically.  So it seems like a colossal waste if they don’t take the opportunity of a book release to simultaneously clean-up the range and modernize the army fully into AoS.

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5 hours ago, Bradipo322 said:

Except that all Stormcasts have the "human" keyword on their warscroll, so they are human.

Big demigod-like humans but still humans.

The steam tank has "human" on it as well. Pretty clearly that in-game keyword is not a description of the unit's genetics.

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7 hours ago, Bradipo322 said:

Except that all Stormcasts have the "human" keyword on their warscroll, so they are human.

Big demigod-like humans but still humans.

There is a big difference between the in game practicality of keywords and the lore which makes a point of describing them as more than humans. Souls plucked from warriors given a body in his likeness. There are even stormcast forged from elven souls. (Very rare but mentioned in one of the books) 

From the core rulebook, Battletome elaborates more of you are interested. So demigods, as much magic as flesh. 

686C7198-71B8-46E2-8018-4B10751B0D71.png.c8b0aecf5a4175e6e5c03271a230d384.pngE3B5BCB9-40DB-4C3E-B542-F44690EB3AEB.png.c1407b7755d8c27698b130d3a0d8cd0c.png

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5 hours ago, xking said:

Stormcast are Humans.  

Saying Stormcast are not humans, is like saying  captain america or the flash is not human because super powers.

They’re not anymore. If you argue that, then I will counter that DNA/genes is the deciding factor what you are. The DNA might be close, might even be the same at the start, but all of them differ as much from humans as humans differ from apes. Close genetically, but not the same. 

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