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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, JPjr said:

Anyway I think they should have let KO ally with Collegiate Arcane, if a mercantile, pragmatic race can’t, for some hand wavey reason, use magic (rather than say actively hate it like Khorne) then, to me.

Trust Aethermatics, Not Superstition.

To quote the KO codex.

Command abilities should be explored more for non-magical/martial armies like Kharadron and Dispossessed. Fyreslayer could delve deep in the rune lore (even Dispo) but "magic" is just an interactive way to give abilities to an army...you can do that without wizards. Prayers are risky and not interactive (look at DoK), command points and "strategems" look on point, to me. 

Edit: both Dispossessed and KO can interact with magic with Runelords and Navigators. I know, KO players, Navigators sucks.... but hey, Runelords are greats!

Edit2: the quote was to point out that duardin not only don't use magic but they do not trust the wizards arts. That's why it's hard, to me, to see a magical expansions for Dispo, Fyre and Ko.

Edited by Furuzzolo
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I say that any significantly advanced form of magic is indistinguishable  from technology.

Duardin Rune-Tech is just that and Aethermatics is just the stunted little sods attempt at obscuring what they’re up to.

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20 minutes ago, JPjr said:

Anyway I think they should have let KO ally with Collegiate Arcane, if a mercantile, pragmatic race can’t, for some hand wavey reason, use magic (rather than say actively hate it like Khorne) then, to me.  it makes in-universe sense they’d probably hire a wizard errant or 2, strap them to the prow of their sky ships and have them around to combat unforeseen arcane aerial threats.

I hate this solution. 😋I didn't buy brand new shiny faction to be forced to buy old minis not matching the design of KO just to be competitive. It's really not hard to introduce new mini or two for KO to play a magic role with good lore explanation. Or rework some existing KO warscrolls to have magic or magic-like abilities. Same for Khorne. 

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, Aryann said:

I hate this solution. 😋I didn't buy brand new shiny faction to be forced to buy old minis not matching the design of KO just to be competitive. It's really not hard to introduce new mini or two for KO to play a magic role with good lore explanation. Or rework some existing KO warscrolls to have magic or magic-like abilities. Same for Khorne. 

Magic for khorne and Duardins.

thats heresy!!

 what the dwarf and Khorne army really need is a great bonus in stopping magic.

well the idea to have magic like ability’s for a no magic force is great, just remember that khorne already has something like this in the form of prayers. And this prayers are in some terms very good.

Prayers an some kind of rune themed bonuses are probably are direction the dwarfs want to go.

Edited by Skreech Verminking
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I have almost zero interest in what’s competitive personally, but if that’s all that matters then you’ll do what you need to do to win anyway, whether that’s running smashface netlists or using all the options available (or more likely just playing DoK).

and if it’s the lore that interests you then you can’t really complain about having no access to magic if you’re deliberately choosing an army that, say Khorne for instance, is and has always been canonically anti-magic and then refusing to use the available options, allies or whatever, and a sprinkling of your own story telling magic to make it make sense.

now sure you might say they should be in some way compensated for that, and I’m sure others (myself included) would agree but then in theory you are in certain ways whether that’s being better at melee combat of having big flying battleships. But we’re only 6 months into the Magic focused era of AoS, I’m sure whenever there’s a course correction like this a few factions will always lag until they, hopefully, get round to putting them on an even keel in some way.

Some factions get things others don’t. That’s just how it will always be, i’d quite like a ghostly flying ship myself, and could knock one up for a laugh/narrative games (and actually now I think about it I might have to try that this year), but my army doesn’t officially get them.

And as I said, for me, from a purely story telling perspective, the idea of some human mage on the lam from polite spell casting society having to shack up with a load of dwarves who don’t like or trust him, and have to pretend to hate magic but secretly need it and just practise their own secret Dwarven kind disguised as technology strikes me as a rich narrative seam to mine. It’s your classic mismatched buddy cop story.

but if you 100% want an all KO army and want magic then you’ll have to wait (or go without) though I suspect you probably won’t have to wait for too long for a fix of some kind.

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also, and this is 100% pure and personal head-canon and only of any interest/relevance if you both favour the narrative elements of the game and are flexible enough to not need everything 100% proscribed by GW but my take on most of the factions is the official info we get contains a kernel of truth about them, BUT filtered though propaganda, myths, lies and deception on the part of both the factions themselves and their enemies.

gives you a lot more freedom and makes it a much, much more interesting world.

otherwise you end up with just another fantasy universe where humans can be multi-faceted individuals and every other sentient creature you encounter is just a tick list of racial traits with little nuance or individuality. never really got the interest in fantasy eugenics myself.

anyway going hilariously off-topic here so I'll shut my trap. apologies if any previous posts have come across as salty here, everyone is entitled to play the game and build their armies in their own way. 1st day back at work and trying to type this on my phone isn't exactly a recipe for temperate, clear, discourse.

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25 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Magic for khorne and Duardins.

thats heresy!!

 what the dwarf and Khorne army really need is a great bonus in stopping magic.

well the idea to have magic like ability’s for a no magic force is great, just remember that khorne already has something like this in the form of prayers. And this prayers are in some terms very good.

Prayers an some kind of rune themed bonuses are probably are direction the dwarfs want to go.

I agree with you on them both needing bonuses for stopping magic especially if they don't get wizards/wizard equivalents (which honestly I don't think they really should) but there has been at least one example of an actual Khornate spell caster in the Shadespire novel so it could be a possibility. It was only in one chapter but it felt like it fit with the Khorne worshipers it was with what with it being basically a slave forced into using it's magic, all covered in scars and chained up with it's eyes torn out of it's head (which if I'm remembering correctly it did to itself I might add). It's spells also seemed to just enhance the reavers abilities but there was no doubt that it was one and not some kind of priest.

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They don't even have to have "spells". Witch Aelves get magic and prayers where prayers are akin to how a spell works save that the risk is a bit different when casting and you can't counter them. Khorne could well get "sacrifices of skulls" or something which would act like magic but wouldn't be "magic" as such. 

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OK, this is all just some free-form ideas so I reserve the right to be hilariously wrong, change my mind at any moment and waffle on for too long, but...

To me just giving anti-magic properties to armies without magic in the name of 'balance' is like all things regarding AoS and 'balance' inevitably going to be problematic. I think you have to be very careful, it might on first glance seem obvious but in theory they should have already been compensated in some other way that ties into their nature.

So let's take the platonic ideal of 2 (Khorne & Tzeentch) armies and ignoring what they actually do, look at what it makes sense for them to do (I say that because I play neither and dont know the intricacies of them/their play styles that well).

Khorne, no magic but should be rampaging murder machines whether that's with axe wielding psychopaths with comedy muscles or access to actual murder machines.

Tzeentch, bunch of book reading turkey twizzlers. Can turn you into a writhing mass of jelly and tentacles from 50 paces but punches like someone whose idea of arm day is carrying a few grimoires to their desk.

Now if just from the start of the game Khorne just cancels out the Tzeentch armies magic, then you end up with a fight that looks like the school football team waiting outside the DnD society after hours to give the nerds a good shoeing. It's not like as their magic gets cancelled out the bird boys start growing muscles.

Personally if you do want to go that route my preference (and in fact this is something I think could be great for all/most armies) is to have some kind of thematic faction mechanic that amps up over the course of the battle. Kind of a mixture of how Idoneth Deepkin gain certain abilities as the tide (turns) change and the current summoning rules.

So for someone like a Khornate army the longer the battle goes on, the more fighting and death there is then the more influence their god has on the material world and so the magic gets progressively harder to cast.

Could work well as an interesting buff for destruction armies, each turn as there's more fighting more Waaagh energy builds up giving them a buff.

Sure you could figure out something similar for most factions (I mean I know they dont need any more help right now but you'd think a battle that's been raging for 5 turns would be a pretty decent place to be if you're a necromancer), or even just those that are lacking something.

Start gently so for the first turn or 2 it has limited effect and can be countered or factored in by good players but gets more powerful in the end game phases, making for more dramatic and potentially conclusive finishes to games.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

or (and apologies again for quacking on), rather than incremental turn-based bonuses that automatically build up instead what I'd actually love to see are ones that they kick in or have more of an effect on the side with the least points at the end of each turn.

I can only imagine the wailing and gnashing from tournament players at the idea, but I've been looking a lot of game design recently and one of the things I do like about more Euro/German style games is how they often include a levelling feature so you either get some kind of bonus if you're losing to keep it competitive or in the final stages there's something that allows you to pull off a win even if you're deep in the ******, so both players still have skin in the game, and hopefully enjoy themselves, for longer.

Objectives in theory could help in that regard if they were more interesting than generally just guarding a marker with masses of troops (which just makes it more likely the winning player will pick up more points).

You can probably play a good few games of MarioKart in the time it takes to set up a single game of AoS yet Nintendo still realise that it's more fun, and keeps people interested, to make it so the players at the back still some chance of winning every game.

And as I say that's a short game, considering what a miserable experience it can be to get screwed in turn 1 or 2 and then have to push plastic around a table in a desultory fashion for another hour or two it makes even more sense to have a smilier mechanic available (though of course not by any means mandatory) in AoS.

You could have so much fun with those kind of rules too. Khorne army almost totally tabled, just one last model left facing insurmountable odds, oh you better belief he's going out fighting as a whirlpool of blood and fire opens in the sky, the last ****** standing spasms and buckles as his flesh rips apart and he's reborn as a Bloodthirster for the 5th turn. Etc etc.

Edited by JPjr

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3 hours ago, JPjr said:

I have almost zero interest in what’s competitive personally, but if that’s all that matters then you’ll do what you need to do to win anyway, whether that’s running smashface netlists or using all the options available (or more likely just playing DoK).

and if it’s the lore that interests you then you can’t really complain about having no access to magic if you’re deliberately choosing an army that, say Khorne for instance, is and has always been canonically anti-magic and then refusing to use the available options, allies or whatever, and a sprinkling of your own story telling magic to make it make sense.

I believe in golden mean. I would refuse to play with somebody running 27 model eel list the same way I would with somebody who wants to pretend his Arkanauts are  great traders and now have ability to bribe my units with gold painted plastic coins he made up. Just want the game to be healthy, both competetively and lore-wise.

3 hours ago, JPjr said:

now sure you might say they should be in some way compensated for that, and I’m sure others (myself included) would agree but then in theory you are in certain ways whether that’s being better at melee combat of having big flying battleships.

If AoS gets even more magic heavy then Khorne and KO need a HEAVY buff with their analogically melee and shooting/evading skills. Things left as they are will push off these faction even more towards being "unplayable".

 

3 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Magic for khorne and Duardins.

thats heresy!!

 what the dwarf and Khorne army really need is a great bonus in stopping magic.

well the idea to have magic like ability’s for a no magic force is great, just remember that khorne already has something like this in the form of prayers. And this prayers are in some terms very good.

Prayers an some kind of rune themed bonuses are probably are direction the dwarfs want to go.

Slaughterpriest is basically a wizard whether or not Khorne players want to admit it. And a good one at it. He only lacks they keyword "wizard". It's easy to come up with similar solution for Kharadrons with a "aether-craftsmenship" or whatever. Have one or two units have anti-magic with some aether "spells" (which are everything like spells just not called spells ;) ). The same can be done with Endless spells for them. They can be summoned differently then normal. Khorne could spend his blood tithe points to summon them (but then these points need to be generated more easily then now) and KO can have "work in progress" ability to let's say "pick a unit which now is working on Aether Spell. That unit cannot move, shoot or attack for 1 turn as it is building Aether-something". Done. A mechanic instead of normal "roll two dice and see if the result is equal or greater than." Pass it to GW Balance Team, let the do the rest.

Not every army needs to be equal in terms of movement, shooting or magic but in the end all factions should be as close to equally competetive as possible. The more factions and mechanics there are, the harder to reach the goal, but GW should at least try. With gamers help even by making such a discussions as this one here.

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Posted (edited)

A priest is not "basically a wizard". Priests pray to their gods while wizards channel the essence of the realms.

I like that there is a distinction in fluff and gameplay between these two.

Edited by PJetski
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15 minutes ago, Walrustaco said:

Nice rumours folks

No point trying to sift through the chitter-chatter in this thread anymore, I recommend War of Sigmar and Faeit 212 for actual rumour reports.

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21 minutes ago, Yokai said:

No point trying to sift through the chitter-chatter in this thread anymore, I recommend War of Sigmar and Faeit 212 for actual rumour reports.

I mean sometimes the chit chatter can be fun

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3 minutes ago, Riddles said:

I mean sometimes the chit chatter can be fun

it might, but unless its about rumours, its offtopic

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48 minutes ago, PJetski said:

A priest is not "basically a wizard". Priests pray to their gods while wizards channel the essence of the realms.

I like that there is a distinction in fluff and gameplay between these two.

It is basically a wizard. Good there are some differences and same can be done for Kharadron Overlords. Don't call it a spell or pray. Let it be aether-binding. Samw goes for pulling it off. No "roll two dice and see if the result is same or greater", no "roll a dice and see if the prayer is answered". Give it "this unit can't perform any actions while it is binding aether" or "roll 10 dice. If you rolled at least 3 dice with an unmodified result of 6 the aether-binding is successful. If not you suffer 1 mortal wound. Guys, it's really that simple to be both different in terms of mechanic and lore. Each idea just needs balancing. That's it. 

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13 minutes ago, Aryann said:

It is basically a wizard. Good there are some differences and same can be done for Kharadron Overlords. Don't call it a spell or pray. Let it be aether-binding. Samw goes for pulling it off. No "roll two dice and see if the result is same or greater", no "roll a dice and see if the prayer is answered". Give it "this unit can't perform any actions while it is binding aether" or "roll 10 dice. If you rolled at least 3 dice with an unmodified result of 6 the aether-binding is successful. If not you suffer 1 mortal wound. Guys, it's really that simple to be both different in terms of mechanic and lore. Each idea just needs balancing. That's it. 

Are we talking about lore or gameplay? because the problem about KO is not about their lore, is about gameplay.

Wizzards and priest are not the same (you already said the arguments why they are diferent...). Magic has even more interaction with the enemy in the form of unbind rolls!!! 

But Duardin (and Khorne) needs  new mechanics that are diferent than Magic. Call it Aether-binding or Rune-forging (or Blood-Tithe for Khorne) and I really don't care if it's pre-game (list-building and passive buffs) or active abilities (gameplay), or just new prayer tables (really strange for KO...but they can work for Dispossessed and Fyreslayers). But they need something.

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Posted (edited)

I hope that GW do again a bundle/sorta SC! with the arachnids. I love the big one, I like the speed of the little ones! (see the new diorama of GW below)

510tW5d-SzL._SX425_.jpg

GloomspiteArmyRules-Jan2-ApiderfangArmy9

Edited by GeneralZero

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+++ Mod Hat On +++

Just a poke but as it has been pointed out several times, can we try and keep to Rumours please!!

Understand that things will drift away from this as people get excited about things, but be great if we can get back on topic like the last few posts ;) 

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6 hours ago, Furuzzolo said:

To quote the KO codex

Huh, wudda ya know? I have realized 40K had these guys in it as well. I'll have to check the store for that book.

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16 hours ago, Furuzzolo said:

I don't know. I like my duardin lore consistent.... Even the knigh-incantor ally hurt my lore-love in that regard. 

Duardins should have some solid antimagic, not partecipate in the wizardry race.. I much prefer to be left out of the endless spell use than a wacky "some duardin can cast spells, now!"

Chaos dwarfs are led by wizards and always have been throughout both Warhammer Fantasy and Age of Sigmar - so the lack of magic does not seem to be a racial feature and more of a cultural one.  So that implies that GW could probably introduce dwarf wizards if they were creative in how they did it.  The only army that I can think of that has a major fluff no-wizards-ever position is Khorne.

In my personal opinion, GW has been creatively subverting some of the long-time fantasy tropes in Age of Sigmar and I would not at all mind if they tossed out the “dwarfs can’t cast magic spells” trope.  Other fantasy settings such as FASA’s Earthdawn RPG setting allowed dwarf magic users and I always felt those settings were richer because of it.  

The Warhammer Old World worked well with those tropes because the whole setting was built on the back of the established Tolkien & D&D tropes (GW started out supplementing D&D after all).  AoS has been trying to set itself apart in many ways so why not let them explore some new ideas.  They have shown that they are pretty good at keeping unique and interesting parts of the Warhammer past while adapting them into a new setting in interesting ways.

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