JPjr Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 Just as a tasty side dish to the Nurgle thread, I’ve been thinking* to what extent do the denizens of the mortal realms have/exhibit free will. Clearly some do or have the appearance but as you look through the factions there’s lots that possibly don’t. Obviously you have DEATH where, barring the FEC, all are Nagash and Nagash is all. @JReynolds‘ ‘Soul Wars’ delves into this a fair bit and to what extent anyone under the thumb of Nagash, from the Mortarchs down to your lowly chainrasp, is anything more than just a splinter of Bone Daddy’s essence. DESTRUCTION forces by their very nature you’d assume if they could take time out from hitting/stabbing/eating things would be hardcore metaphysical libertarians (though hopefully less annoying than the ones on our planet). CHAOS, well in most cases pledging your eternal soul to an Eldritch horror would, in most cases, put you firmly in the hard determinist camp but, daemons aside who seem to be like the dead/undead and just fragments of their master’s will, we do see chaos followers who at least seem to, on occasion, have ideas and plans that may go counter to their patron god’s desires. But to what extent are the Stormcast free? We’ve got plenty of stories that show how many of them understand their new existence is a burden but have there been any showing someone rejecting the initial call upon their heroic death? Or going “you know what Sigmate, being repeatedly speared by various horrific things is getting just a bit tiring, mind if after my next re-forging I just go and farm some crops in a quiet corner of the realms for a century or two?” There’s a couple of moments in ‘Soul Wars’ & ‘Plague Garden’ where the question of Stormcast autonomy is raised and, unless I’m mistaken, never truly resolved and there was a story in ‘Inferno 2’ of a fairly sulky Stormcast, imprisoned in a fighting pit. He seemed fairly unimpressed with his lot, but even he saw himself more as a failure and was waiting for a signal to get back in the action rather than actively refusing to get involved**. Your standard humans, duardian and aelves all seem to have a degree of freedom, in life at least, to make terrible decisions freely (even if, admittedly, goaded on occasion by various ****** gods). Wanderers bunking off leaving Alarielle in the ****** springs to mind, so they seem to have agency but then do the Sylvaneth grown from her cuttings? What about the more, transformed let’s say, members of Morathi’s crew, do they have free will? Obviously the Deepkin bolted from Teclis but will Malerion and Tyrion risk that with their new creations and not install some kind of backdoor exploit in their souls? Seraphon? Etc etc. So many questions that all matter so little! * Terrible habit I know, apologies in advance for a long, probably well worn thread. I’m on a long bus journey into town to grab the dreaded Ambull and very bored, so deal with it (or of course just let this slowly, embarrassingly drip it’s way down and off the front page like so much pseudo-intellectual molasses). ** Also has it ever been addressed as to what happens if a Stormcast is injured in battle and is crippled or loses an arm but survives? Do they get magically healed, broken spines fixed and lost limbs replaced. Or do they have to wait to be reforged, which then raises the delicate question of euthanasia (or should that be euthanazyr, badum-tish!) booths for those keen to get back out there... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michu Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 33 minutes ago, JPjr said: Also has it ever been addressed as to what happens if a Stormcast is injured in battle and is crippled or loses an arm but survives? Do they get magically healed, broken spines fixed and lost limbs replaced. Or do they have to wait to be reforged, which then raises the delicate question of euthanasia (or should that be euthanazyr, badum-tish!) booths for those keen to get back out there... IIRC they are healed during reforging unless the injury is "important" (e.g. losing an eye in a fight so glorious that people will always remember you as Alexos One-eyed) then it will stay. @JReynolds would probably know more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPjr Posted February 23, 2019 Author Share Posted February 23, 2019 3 minutes ago, michu said: IIRC they are healed unless the injury is "important" (e.g. losing an eye in a fight so glorious that people will always remember you as Alexos One-eyed) then it will stay. this strikes me as a pretty terrible kind of healthcare system. "so, errr any chance of giving me back my leg?" "nay brave Hopalong Goldenstump, for the tale of your fight with that daemonic kraken and the way you tend to fall over when swinging your big hammer now is truly an inspiration to us all!" "😑" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michu Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 Maybe it's only for minor injuries (scars, lost eyes, ears, teeth)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overread Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 I think one issue with free will is many of the books we have thus far are warbooks focused around battles so freedom and willpower and honestly the number of choices to make are often fewer. Many are loyal warriors to their cause which instantly cuts out a lot of "heck lets just get out of here" arguments and suchlike. Destruction have freedom of will, in fact to such an extent that I'd argue its the core reason they left Sigmar's Alliance and struck out on their own. They are warlike nomadic raiders who simply couldn't easily live with a society that was pressuring them to become sedentary; to settle down and make some crops and houses and start banking at the local bank. Destruction are a wild and free force, though it would be good to get some stories that delve into their social life "in the camp" not just when out raiding. Order forces I think pretty much all have free will to a degree depending on their faction and species. Your standard human, dwarf and Aelf is pretty much free to make their own choices. The limitations on them are more social constructs of their society that they live within than anything else. With an extreme example of control being Morathi's Daughters of Khaine - though even there Morathi has to maintain spies and her own servents (Bloodwrack Medusa) in order to help keep order within her own ranks. Indeed the way she has perpetuated a simplistic "survival of the fittest" means that assassination of herself is a "potential" avenue for a powerful Queen to rise up through the society (hence why she might gift them a bite from her serpents to turn them into a Bloodwrack under her control and influence). Sigmar's Stormcast though are interesting as they appear to display freedom of choice and will; yet at the same time I think during the reforging process part of them is lost. They all have the same burning desire to fight Chaos in the name of Sigmar and I think rather than remove their concept of freedom to choose, Sigmar has instead simply reduced a Stormcast's outlook on life so that they've basically one choice - fight chaos! This produces very powerful, very loyal and very driven warriors who - be they smiths or fighters - will do all they can to beat back Chaos. The story we get in Inferno 2 where one has failed, they are almost left without a means to consider alternative pathways or options. Broken from their single goal they await a reset or message from Sigmar to set them back on their pathway. Plus the continual memory loss and the fact that they don't grow up through a childhood, but are born fully mature, I think also twists their options on life and cuts down their ability to make actual choices. They are almost like slaves, but slaves who are happy with their condition and wouldn't be able to see the bars even if shown. They are trapped in that life or death moment of pure hate of Chaos as they were plucked away in their last moments of normal life. When Sigmar harvested them for his grand army. Almost as if they are reliving an endless dream of winning at all odds in those last few moments of life left to them as they died a horrible death (mostly to chaos). Seraphon are interesting as the Slaan clearly have full freedom of choice. Meanwhile the lizardmen they summon appear to have choice, but are an even more focused concept of warriors like Stormcast. They exist only for the battle and only to fight in that battle they were summoned for. However they are also a faction going through great chances with the possibility of settling and reforming as a people; which suggests that they are as free in that form as any dwarf, aelf of human. Sylvanath appear to have free will, but also have a unification link to the Everqueen and each other. They are bound rather like a network of roots to the woods and their peoples as well as to their queen. They have freedom to choose and to operate how they wish; but at the same time when their queen makes her call, they have a hard time resisting because they are one and part of each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Posted February 23, 2019 Share Posted February 23, 2019 14 hours ago, JPjr said: ** Also has it ever been addressed as to what happens if a Stormcast is injured in battle and is crippled or loses an arm but survives? Do they get magically healed, broken spines fixed and lost limbs replaced. Or do they have to wait to be reforged, which then raises the delicate question of euthanasia (or should that be euthanazyr, badum-tish!) booths for those keen to get back out there... There are example in the law of Stormcasts healing pretty significantly. The Lord Castellants Warding lantern is described as repairing their flesh and even indents the sigmarite armour in the early Realm Gate Wars books. Also the Lord Castellant Lorrus Grymn regrows a new fully functional arm (but it’s a bit wooden thanks to help from a Branch witch) ps. Khorne’s follows keep their free will, it is entirely their own agency that lets them eat the hearts of their loved ones in the Dark Feast. There is absolutely no pressure from the circle of hungry canabalistic murders surrounding you at the time . . . Skulls for his throne! 💀 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JReynolds Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 21 hours ago, michu said: IIRC they are healed during reforging unless the injury is "important" (e.g. losing an eye in a fight so glorious that people will always remember you as Alexos One-eyed) then it will stay. @JReynolds would probably know more. There are various methods of healing available, from the short term - warding lanterns - to the long-term - aelfen magics - though you don't see it much in the novels - mainly because we've only just now reached a point where those sorts of stories are being considered. Warriors that are mortally injured amid conditions that preclude extraction often receive Sigmar's mercy (i.e. another Stormcast kills them), but this really depends on the Stormhost and Stormcast in question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie Grimwood Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 I though maintaining some measure of free will is why Archaon remained mortal(ish) and didn’t become a Daemon, much like Horus and Abaddon. As it allows them them to pursue their own agendas without fully being just the pawns of thier chosen gods. Archaon seems to be more driven by his hate for Sigmar than any religious conviction. Sure the gods will provide aid but he destroyed the World that Was for his own reasons not for their Glory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overread Posted February 24, 2019 Share Posted February 24, 2019 2 hours ago, JReynolds said: There are various methods of healing available, from the short term - warding lanterns - to the long-term - aelfen magics - though you don't see it much in the novels - mainly because we've only just now reached a point where those sorts of stories are being considered. Warriors that are mortally injured amid conditions that preclude extraction often receive Sigmar's mercy (i.e. another Stormcast kills them), but this really depends on the Stormhost and Stormcast in question. There's a neat twist! A Stormcast who is crippled in battle, beyond the normal realm of healing, but who refuses to be killed and reforged because of the memory loss. Would they be seen as a coward by their fellow stormcast for remaining crippled and thus unable to fight; would it be shown as a sign of fear of reforging that spreads worry and concern within the ranks. Stormcast are almost fearless in battle, but what if they started to show fear; what if death became an enemy for them to shy from. Would the unstoppable legions of golden warriors stall if suddenly they felt not quite so immortal. Just how long can Sigmar stoke the fires of hate within them against Chaos before they burn out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NemoVonUtopia Posted February 26, 2019 Share Posted February 26, 2019 I think that it's an interesting question for stormcast. I can't remember if this is in a book or I just made it up but I wonder if any stormcast are resentful that they were abducted so they couldn't die with their comrades or maybe they think that if they were able to continue fighting they could have defeated chaos. Maybe those that are are weeded out in the forging process or realize that they are able to do much better as stormcast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitefang Posted February 28, 2019 Share Posted February 28, 2019 Thinking about free will is quite odd in a Warhammer for everyone is somewhat brainwashed in order to survive. But in the case of AOS, everyone outside those poor souls ruled by an unjust, unmerciful and twisted OLD BONE does has certain level of free will. However, even Arkhan has certain free will which mad Nagash can not understand and let go as a result of his arrogance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zekefreed Posted March 3, 2019 Share Posted March 3, 2019 I will assume human/elf/dwarf brains are the same. I will rank them for 0-10. 0 having no free will. If the human brains work like they do in AoS then we can assume humans do not possess free will within the setting. Seraphon/Sylvaneth I think might be a bit of an exception because their type of consciousness seems to be a little different when compared to a humans. Sylvaneth seem to process an almost hive mind like superintellgence Free will score: 0-3 (they do not prossess free will, expect possibly in non-humanoid factions and godly beings) Many destruction factions run on a spectrum of free will. They are beings entirely controlled by their primal urges and seem to give into them even when the most likely result in the death of the organism. You could make an arguement that this grants them the greatest amount of free will. Truly denying their programming, assuming that their programming tells them to survive. We lack the necessary knowledge to truly know free will score: ??? Greatest potentially and at the same time least potentially Death is broken into a caste like society. With free will being nearly equivalent to power. At the very bottom free will is 0 and you could even argue that these beings have a very redimentary consciousness. Are skeletons even sentient? I don’t know. Where as Nagash is literally able to extend his will onto other. I think it is impossible to know how much free will nagash actually has. He is a being of pure necrotic energy, not to mention most likely has a different form of consciousness. Free will score: 0-3 (similar to order) Chaos is similar to destruction and potentially has the greatest amount of free will, or the least. Chaotic corruption I assume changes the structure of the mind thus freeing yourself from the original master: your mind. Though Truthfully there is a lot we don’t know here. Is a demon’s mind susceptible to the firing of nerves? What types of consciousness could they possess? Are all demons sentient? Free will score: ??? (Same as chaos) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fairbanks Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 So far, Death is maybe the only faction where Free Will isnt a given. Every other faction has some degree of “I better do what I say, or you’re dead.” And then there’s Tzeentch levels of “Free Will is an illusion” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
passtheKhorneplease Posted March 4, 2019 Share Posted March 4, 2019 I think the issue of free will is always tricky, but in general characters can always change. It maybe difficult and circumstances may force a person in one direction or another but for most of us we each make a choice to get up in the morning and really that is our choice. What I think is complicated and sometimes troubling about Warhammer is that there is little morality in either universe (there is some in Sigmar and there is almost none in 40K). All the factions are addicted to violence in some form or another, and they have to be because it is, after all, a wargame. But the most serious moral dilemmas often revolve around how the choices you make for yourself affect others, and no faction seems to have any problem with resolving those choices with the edge of a sword. In fact it seems in these universes there is no option but violence. So yes there is choice but it is limited by the fact that they are stuck in a universe based on a wargame that precludes any solutions other than violence, hence choice/free will is limited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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