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Nurgle, the only god you don't choose voluntary


EMMachine

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After finishing "The Tainted Heart" I'm actually wondering, if Nurgle is one of the only gods you can become a follower without choosing him voluntary, and that makes him a little problematic.

To give some additional content. In most stories where we here something about followers of Nurgle, it sounded like they had choosen to follow Nurgle. The Tainted Heart gave a little other picture here. If you have been infected by nurgles plagues (and there is a high chance that you got it without wanting it) there is a high chance that you're threated to be killed because of the thought there wouldn't be a cure.

We also saw this thoughts in the Malign Portents Stories "Death at the Door" and "To Truly Excel", were people have been killed by Stormcast Eternals because of illness. This is actually a problem, because we also have for example the prisoners in "Plaguegarden", which should be doomed as well, because they were prisoners of Nurgle followers.

If we look at the other Chaos Gods, there followers choose there gods with there actions more or less voluntary even if it is a creeping process. In case of Nurgle it partly looks more like bad luck and following Nurgle because of being expelled by society.

I have the feeling that this creates the picture that Nurgle is stronger that the gods of Order, if the only salvation from there plages would be killing those people. There is simply no way to win against Nurgle in that case.

What do you guys think?

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The plagues are powerful, but many will die rather than be enthralled and many of the enthralled are lower order Chaos. It's a powerful trick, but the other gods have their own ways to twist people to their cause. Slaanesh can spread cults of pleasure; Khorne blood fighting pits; Tzeentch the lure of power and knowledge. 

 

Nurgle is more overt in the case of plagues and poxes that show themselves on the persons body, in that you could argue he's weaker because those he's corrupting are visibly marked for all to see. Slaanesh pleasure cults can go on for years, generations without detection. Khorne fighting pits, might not convert many but they will twist and convert the strongest, the elite. 

 

Each of the four has their own ways and means to corruption of the masses and the select. The only Chaos god that doesn't is the fifth and that's because The Great Horned One has no need to corrupt the Skaven openly; they do it themselves from birth in how they raise their young. 

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I think you always have to be careful drawing too many definitive conclusions when dealing with a fictional universe that operates on hand wavey laws and that is authored by multiple writers. The other thing is working out what the author's point is, because at the end of the day they can and will change how things work to suit the needs of the story they want to tell.

Hence why I want to repeatedly smash my face into a wall whenever I see people engaging in painfully long and boring discussions online about whether x superhero should be able to defeat Y superhero, at the end of the day the result doesn't come down to painstakingly comparing stats but what the needs of the story are, which is exactly as it should be (within reason, of course).

I haven't read Tainted Heart, but certainly with 'Death at the Door' and 'To Truly Excel', as I read it, the point isn't to show that Nurgle is all powerful (whilst it makes most sense to use his 'gifts' to drive the narrative it could work with other Chaos gods with a bit of thought) but instead to show you the dark side of the Stormcast and in both these cases specifically The Knights Excelsior.

Depending on your point of view these are cautionary tales showing that an excess of virtue and dogmatism, even in the name of 'good' can lead you down some terrible paths, or showing the horrific choices that they face even when they 'win', or just because edgy grim darkness is an easy way to make something seem meaningful and gives teenage boys an erection.

With 'Plague Garden' a huge theme running through the novel is about redemption and holding onto your humanity, so it makes sense that we see them as both 8ft golden murder machines but also as people trying to save the ordinary humans that they are no longer, 100%, the same as.

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Lots of followers of Khorne, tzeentch and slaanesh don’t do it through choice.

Many of the followers don’t even realise they’ve fallen to chaos until it’s too late. It’s worth noting also, that each of the gods play on basic instincts or survival mechanisms, such as lust, rage, deceit and the will to survive. 

And following the horned rat, is because you’re a dirty rat 😛

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9 minutes ago, JPjr said:

I think you always have to be careful drawing too many definitive conclusions when dealing with a fictional universe that operates on hand wavey laws and that is authored by multiple writers. The other thing is working out what the author's point is, because at the end of the day they can and will change how things work to suit the needs of the story they want to tell.

Hence why I want to repeatedly smash my face into a wall whenever I see people engaging in painfully long and boring discussions online about whether x superhero should be able to defeat Y superhero, at the end of the day the result doesn't come down to painstakingly comparing stats but what the needs of the story are, which is exactly as it should be (within reason, of course).

Yeah thats true. In the case of the fictional universe we have the strange but interesting lore that a nurgle follower gets stronger by the plages.

 

9 minutes ago, JPjr said:

I haven't read Tainted Heart, but certainly with 'Death at the Door' and 'To Truly Excel', as I read it, the point isn't to show that Nurgle is all powerful (whilst it makes most sense to use his 'gifts' to drive the narrative it could work with other Chaos gods with a bit of thought) but instead to show you the dark side of the Stormcast and in both these cases specifically The Knights Excelsior.

Depending on your point of view these are cautionary tales showing that an excess of virtue and dogmatism, even in the name of 'good' can lead you down some terrible paths, or showing the horrific choices that they face even when they 'win', or just because edgy grim darkness is an easy way to make something seem meaningful and gives teenage boys an erection.

With 'Plague Garden' a huge theme running through the novel is about redemption and holding onto your humanity, so it makes sense that we see them as both 8ft golden murder machines but also as people trying to save the ordinary humans that they are no longer, 100%, the same as.

In this case we have witchhunters that are rather radical and if we want the 8ft golden murder machines with a Lord Veritant of the Hammers of Sigmar (at least his armour was descripted as being golden). The point is Esselt got infected while fighting and Talorcan will find a way to cure her. There was also some sort of potion that was used to torture a Nurgle follower that would heal the plage of him but the follower became a pile of slag in the end because he was too far corrupted. I actually wonder if this potion actually could have healed Esselt if she got it early enough.

Just now, NurglesFirstChosen said:

Lots of followers of Khorne, tzeentch and slaanesh don’t do it through choice.

Many of the followers don’t even realise they’ve fallen to chaos until it’s too late. It’s worth noting also, that each of the gods play on basic instincts or survival mechanisms, such as lust, rage, deceit and the will to survive. 

The point is, in these cases, the follower has to take actions that make him a follower. In case of Nurgle you perhaps got bit by a fly and your doomed.

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Just now, EMMachine said:

Yeah thats true. In the case of the fictional universe we have the strange but interesting lore that a nurgle follower gets stronger by the plages.

 

In this case we have witchhunters that are rather radical and if we want the 8ft golden murder machines with a Lord Veritant of the Hammers of Sigmar (at least his armour was descripted as being golden). The point is Esselt got infected while fighting and Talorcan will find a way to cure her. There was also some sort of potion that was used to torture a Nurgle follower that would heal the plage of him but the follower became a pile of slag in the end because he was too far corrupted. I actually wonder if this potion actually could have healed Esselt if she got it early enough.

The point is, in these cases, the follower has to take actions that make him a follower. In case of Nurgle you perhaps got bit by a fly and your doomed.

You miss my point perhaps. 

Someone being inflicted by a disease and swearing allegiance to survive is a survival instinct. Festus leechlord on the other hand became a follower of nurgle so he could save thousands.

Each of the gods, are beings born of survival instincts.  

 

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13 minutes ago, NurglesFirstChosen said:

You miss my point perhaps. 

Someone being inflicted by a disease and swearing allegiance to survive is a survival instinct. Festus leechlord on the other hand became a follower of nurgle so he could save thousands.

Each of the gods, are beings born of survival instincts.  

 

I think there are two ways. Being used by a chaosgod and becoming a follower.

I mean, we have the story "overlords of the Irondragon", where Tzeentch followers directed Kharadron Overlords by there greed so a Tzeentch Goal could be fulfilled. The Kharadron Overlords never became followers of Tzeetch. But there was one that got infected by nurgle (partly as a counter to the Tzeentch Plan) and at least he was doomed (in that case also bitten by a fly). He never became a follower of Nurgle, but became a vessel to counter the Tzeentch plan and died there.

Often Tzeentch and Khorne can fulfill plans without the requirement that the people has to be followers or becoming followers in the end.

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The wonderful (and interesting) thing about the long road to damnation by the Dark Gods is that it doesn't start with bad intentions and that they subtly feed off of us simply being humans, something we can't really help. A simple prayer you throw into the cosmos can end up being heard by the "wrong" pair of ears: let's say you - or a loved one - got a terrible, lethal sickness: 

You throw a prayer towards the skies and unfortunately it's Nurgle who offers you a helping hand. Yes, he was the cause of you being in that situation in the first place but I believe that the other Gods don't offer you much choice either (or did any sane person ever chose to get cancer?). "Choice" seems irrelevant when we think of Tzeentch, Khorne might become your patron just as involuntarily under the right circumstances. I believe the most "choice" you get is with Slaanesh and when we think about how easy it is to become addicted to a simple drug, I think we can easily draw a powerful picture there as well. 

To spin it further: what choice did you have in becoming a Christian, Muslim or whatever when you were young? Imagine those were Gods whose actions could be felt/seen? You'd be instantly damned due to your cultural background if you happen to be born into a culture that reveres the wrong deity. Yes, as a grown-up you can decide for yourself but if religion in the real world functioned like in Warhammer, you'd be screwed already. And that's before we even think about how easy life is for most of us - I'm sure 99% of "the people" in AoS have a harder time than we do, so they'd be less reluctant to go all-in on damnation anyways.

They pretty much got two options: go with the flow or die. I'm sure most of us (especially if you consider that people in that fictional world know much less about stuff than we do) would go with number 1.

And when we think of terribly weak and flawed people in general are (both in body and mind), we get our answer. Some kids sell body parts to buy a stupid iPad after all.

Chaos is best (and scariest) when it's written with a mature point of view. The simple "MAIN KILL BURN" stuff might be where it all leads to but it's interesting to learn how a person could end at such a dark place. 

 

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I always thought Nurgle represented the most mature of the pantheon thematically speaking. He’s essentially the god of lost causes, the shunned, the ill, the weak and the poor, who sadly are often one and the same due to societal Predjudice. There’s pathos and tragedy in the arcs of his followers.

The rest of the pantheon are quite classically pagan in their personality and cast very much as self absorbed or obsessed in their respective manners and machinations. Whereas there is a benevolence in Papa Nurgle for His creation and his followers which draws quite a lot from Christian theology.

I think it’s one of the reasons Nurgle is better represented on the tabletop than the others, there are multiple dimensions to his brood that is missing from the armies of his siblings who are just waaaa Blood/Magic/Sex Lobsters. The Great Unclean one is by far the best Greater Daemon sculpt there has been because it owns a personality which is much more interesting than its role, very much a character as of itself which is neither deriviative of other stuff or just related exclusively to purpose as say the Bloodthirster. And I think the reason The Keeper If Secrets is garbage because GW are confused about what to do with Slaanesh/what it is.

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6 minutes ago, Nos said:

I think it’s one of the reasons Nurgle is better represented on the tabletop than the others, there are multiple dimensions to his brood that is missing from the armies of his siblings who are just waaaa Blood/Magic/Sex Lobsters.

Aye, whilst I'm constantly tempted to start a DoT army as I just would love to have something wild and brightly coloured to paint up I've always thought  followers of Slaanesh and Tzeentch are so much more interesting in an RPG setting with pleasure cults amongst the pampered rich and revolutionary forces of change amongst the downtrodden poor.

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I disagree with Nurgle being the most interesting God as his theme is the most mature - all of them can be handled in a mature way (or not, that's when you get Lord Bloodbjörn, the Blooddrinker with this loyal Bloodseekers...) - and well, as a TS and DoT player, I'm biased but I think the LoC is much cooler than the GUO. :P I do agree that the GUO is an excellent update and has always been a great concept.

The god (and its followers) I most struggle with to identify as anything other than selfish and more or less plain evil is Slaanesh. A weak character lands you there unless you got body dysmorphia. That's more textbook evil than the other 3 IMO. 

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1 hour ago, MitGas said:

I disagree with Nurgle being the most interesting God as his theme is the most mature - all of them can be handled in a mature way (or not, that's when you get Lord Bloodbjörn, the Blooddrinker with this loyal Bloodseekers...) - and well, as a TS and DoT player, I'm biased but I think the LoC is much cooler than the GUO. :P I do agree that the GUO is an excellent update and has always been a great concept.

The god (and its followers) I most struggle with to identify as anything other than selfish and more or less plain evil is Slaanesh. A weak character lands you there unless you got body dysmorphia. That's more textbook evil than the other 3 IMO. 

Slaanesh struggles from the same issues as the Dark Elves did in that if everyone is a nihilist it’s just boring. 

The weak character is something I identify more with Tzeentch who in turn have always seemed like the Slytherin Chaos faction. Their supposed cunning duplicity is hugely transparent to everyone else  and attracts people who think that wearing a fedora is a bold statement of charisma.

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There’s always a choice with Chaos Gods you need to choose the follow them, granted it might not always  be him the greatest choice in the world but it’s a choice that needs to be made. 

As Chaos gods (and gods in general really) go Nurgle is actually quite nice and treats his folllowers rather well in comparison to most. He is Grandfather Nurgle after all. 

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22 minutes ago, Nos said:

[Tzeentch] attracts people who think that wearing a fedora is a bold statement of charisma

 

3 minutes ago, MitGas said:

You could just as easily consider Nurgle smelly and lazy guys that gave up already.

 

Whereas the true devotee of chaos undivided is a smelly, lazy man in a fedora and crappy v for vendetta mask, who splits his time between getting angry online and threatening strangers whilst cracking one off to tentacle hentai. Thankfully such a foul creature could never exist in real life. 🤔

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58 minutes ago, MitGas said:

Nos: Well, that's a shortcoming of your own chosing then, if you only think of them like a saturday morning toons. :P

You could just as easily consider Nurgle smelly and lazy guys that gave up already.

Or a shortcoming of your inability to read something clearly tounge in cheek.

 

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4 minutes ago, Nos said:

Or a shortcoming of your inability to read something clearly tounge in cheek.

 

Or - to fuel the god of sarcasm further -  your shortcoming to make your comment sound tongue-in-cheek! :P (sorry, English is not my native tongue, so irony might be lost on me)

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I don't think it's just Nurgle, this is from the Bloodbound Battletome
 "Khorne’s dominion over the Mortal Realms is so great that any can fall to this Red Baptism, be they devoted worshipper of Khorne, simple tribesman or noble and pure-hearted knight. Even those who fought furiously against Khorne’s monstrous servants just hours before can find themselves suddenly transformed. Some say that the very blood shed by these chosen flows and congeals at that moment, scabbing into the thick, heavy plates of the Blood Warrior’s armour before becoming brass and iron. Others claim that, even after his Red Baptism, a Blood Warrior’s armour will continue to bleed when struck, as though it were a living part of his own body"

 

Also, one could argue that Sigmar's choosing may be unwilling.
Just because we assume that the Stormcast were all loyal Sigmarites before reforging doesn't necessarily mean they were. Tornus the Redeemed was most likely a devout of Alerielle as a human.
What's to stop the storm god from taking the soul of a redeemable vampire? Or a cultist that grew up knowing only the dominion of tzeentch, but used his magic/blessings to improve the station of his people? These people didn't *choose* Sigmar at first.

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42 minutes ago, Requizen said:

Saw this linked in a Discord chat, seems that Tomb Kings are back in AoS!

 

 

52736744_10213519680401648_5969514489966493696_o.jpg

This is from the rumor thread. Considering SETTRA DOES NOT SERVE it could imply that some Stormcast were reforged against their will with the aspects of their soul/personality that would oppose working for Sigmar "lost" during the reforging process.

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20 minutes ago, MitGas said:

Or - to fuel the god of sarcasm further -  your shortcoming to make your comment sound tongue-in-cheek! :P (sorry, English is not my native tongue, so irony might be lost on me)

Oh no need for apologies what so ever friend. I’m not going to be sarcastic to someone who speaks English as a second language, when I dont have a single other language I’m fluent enough to be sarcastic in otherwise! You got me beat!

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Hmmm, this was easier than I thought - playing the "it's not my native tongue"-victim-card made you almost feel terrible and now I don't have to feel like a moron for being too dense to get your post in the first place. Huzzah for the cunning  Tzeentch has bestowed upon me! ;)  Time to wear my fedora and feel totally suave!

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While the spread of disease can mark one with nurgles blessings may others can find themselves unknowingly marked by a chaos god. A town executioner or honour obsessed duelist can be marked by khorne for obvious reasons, a scholar who falls victim to his own pursuit of knowledge can catch the eye of tzeench without knowingly seeking chaos. An artist or really anyone trying to uniquely express themselves or master their trade can catch the notice of slaanesh. Well at least if one thing can be said it's that nurgle probably cares more for those he 'blesses' than the other gods do.

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