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ReynakZhen

New ban/restricted list for UW

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Extreme Flank added to the ban list; superior tactician, deathly fortitude and sudden growth added to restricted list.

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Good changes, overall. I probably would have put EF on Restricted instead of Banned, but I understand the logic.

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Well then. I wasn't expecting Extreme Flank to get tossed onto the chopping block. I can hear all of the Alone in the Darkness cards getting pulled out of their binders now.

The restricted additions all make perfect sense though, quite happy with them.

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23 minutes ago, Skyeline said:

Well then. I wasn't expecting Extreme Flank to get tossed onto the chopping block. I can hear all of the Alone in the Darkness cards getting pulled out of their binders now.

The restricted additions all make perfect sense though, quite happy with them.

With Deathly Fortitude, Sudden Growth and Superior Tactician on that list there's a whole bunch of decks which are at 7 even after removing Extreme Flank!

1 hour ago, Requizen said:

Good changes, overall. I probably would have put EF on Restricted instead of Banned, but I understand the logic.

It already was on the restricted list, it's just moved up.

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4 minutes ago, Malakree said:

With Deathly Fortitude, Sudden Growth and Superior Tactician on that list there's a whole bunch of decks which are at 7 even after removing Extreme Flank!

There sure are... just staring at the Farstrider deck I made this weekend and shaking my head. They had just finally gotten the chance to hit the tables again after months of sitting in the case.

Edited by Skyeline
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Just now, Skyeline said:

There sure are... just staring at the Farstrider deck I made this weekend and shaking my head. They had just finally gotten the chance to finally hit the tables again after months of sitting in the case.

My own Farstrider deck hasn't really suffered at all. That said it seems the majority of other players consider any/all of my decks to be weird...

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I'd be lying if I said I didn't find your Farstrider deck which relies on being outnumbered heavily (and thus probably getting some Farstriders out of action pretty early on) to be odd! Good on you though. Can't imagine what other crazy decks you've crafted. :P

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44 minutes ago, Skyeline said:

Well then. I wasn't expecting Extreme Flank to get tossed onto the chopping block. I can hear all of the Alone in the Darkness cards getting pulled out of their binders now.

The restricted additions all make perfect sense though, quite happy with them.

Alone is much better balanced imo, since it's only good for some warbands. EF was in everything, but swarmbands, combat focused bands, or super-defensive bands might not use AitD. Plus it has anti-synergy with a lot of stuff and is harder to pull off.

19 minutes ago, Malakree said:

With Deathly Fortitude, Sudden Growth and Superior Tactician on that list there's a whole bunch of decks which are at 7 even after removing Extreme Flank!

It already was on the restricted list, it's just moved up.

Doop, I forgot.

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Bummer. Superior Tactician is pretty much how I won with Thorns. Plus, I was just rebuilding my deck to include Deathly Fortitude.

Back to the drawing board.

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3 hours ago, Skyeline said:

I'd be lying if I said I didn't find your Farstrider deck which relies on being outnumbered heavily (and thus probably getting some Farstriders out of action pretty early on) to be odd! Good on you though. Can't imagine what other crazy decks you've crafted. :P

I've gotten it to the point that I can actually get kataphrane's off fairly reliably. At the recent grandclash I managed it 6 times and 2 of my lost games I would have gotten it if I hadn't made some obvious mistakes.

2 hours ago, Sleboda said:

Bummer. Superior Tactician is pretty much how I won with Thorns. Plus, I was just rebuilding my deck to include Deathly Fortitude.

Back to the drawing board.

It was needed, there are just to many score immediately for it to not be, thorns and cursebreakers actually being the two biggest culprits for it. Similarly the Faneway Crystal on Briar Queen or Stormsire with the +4 wounds was just obnoxious and made a mockery of Mollogs 7 wounds. It's still an option but it's actually going to hurt them to do it.

I hope it cuts back on the cursebreakers, I've gotten sick of seeing them at tournaments with how ridiculously easy they are to play.

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These changes are a massive boost to aggro Mollog and aggro Thorns. Cover Ground is going to see a lot more play.

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5 hours ago, PJetski said:

These changes are a massive boost to aggro Mollog and aggro Thorns.

Aggro Thorns?

Do tell!

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8 hours ago, Sleboda said:

Aggro Thorns?

Do tell!

You haven't seen this deck? It's about buffing the queen into a killmonster while the chainrasp capture objectives. Between Faneway Crystal, Inescapable Vengeance, and Spectral Wings (after inspiring) it should be fairly easy to score Cover Ground.

Im really surprised they didnt restrict Ready for Action and Inspiration Strikes...

Edited by PJetski

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1 hour ago, PJetski said:

You haven't seen this deck? It's about buffing the queen into a killmonster while the chainrasp capture objectives. Between Faneway Crystal, Inescapable Vengeance, and Spectral Wings (after inspiring) it should be fairly easy to score Cover Ground.

Im really surprised they didnt restrict Ready for Action and Inspiration Strikes...

Wait, did they change that FAQ? Pretty sure that used to say that teleports didn't score Cover Ground, but daaang that's strong now.

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2 hours ago, PJetski said:

You haven't seen this deck? It's about buffing the queen into a killmonster while the chainrasp capture objectives. Between Faneway Crystal, Inescapable Vengeance, and Spectral Wings (after inspiring) it should be fairly easy to score Cover Ground.

Im really surprised they didnt restrict Ready for Action and Inspiration Strikes...

I can't imagine taking objectives is a thing. I load up my Queen, for sure, but for me they plan is to score a boat load of those easy/ immediates. Get guys next to an enemy, move through enemies, leader alive, be inspired, keep them guessing, that sort of thing.

I'm curious to see how they can be aggressive and even more curious about how anyone lets objectives (the tiles) matter at all.

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53 minutes ago, Requizen said:

Wait, did they change that FAQ? Pretty sure that used to say that teleports didn't score Cover Ground, but daaang that's strong now.

Yup, it's pretty nuts. I think it's going to easily slot in to Thorns and Farstriders decks

4 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

I can't imagine taking objectives is a thing. I load up my Queen, for sure, but for me they plan is to score a boat load of those easy/ immediates. Get guys next to an enemy, move through enemies, leader alive, be inspired, keep them guessing, that sort of thing.

I'm curious to see how they can be aggressive and even more curious about how anyone lets objectives (the tiles) matter at all.

The aggression is almost entirely from the Queen.

Supremacy is an easy score in any Thorns deck, and it's pretty easy to justify throwing in the 3 Tactical Supremacy cards, too.

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7 hours ago, PJetski said:

Yup, it's pretty nuts. I think it's going to easily slot in to Thorns and Farstriders decks

The aggression is almost entirely from the Queen.

Supremacy is an easy score in any Thorns deck, and it's pretty easy to justify throwing in the 3 Tactical Supremacy cards, too.

Queen aggression makes sense to me. Objectives don't. First, you're trading out one of the 12 (limited resource) Objective cards that could be under your control for ones that are much less in your control. Second, as soon as your opponent sees you going for multiple objectives, at least in my experience (and it's also what I do to others), they use any number of options to deny you, often with just the flick of a card.

I'm genuinely interested in hearing how people have made objective style play a viable option. I loved playing that way when the game first came out, but have not seen it work since just after the Chosen Axes hit.

Edited by Sleboda

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2 hours ago, Sleboda said:

Queen aggression makes sense to me. Objectives don't. First, your trading out one of the 12 (limited resource) Objective cards that could be under your control for ones that are much less in your control. Second, as soon as your opponent see you going for multiple objectives, at least in my experience (and it's also what I do to others), they use any number of options to deny you, often with just the flick of a card.

I'm genuinely interested in hearing how people have made objective style play a viable option. I loved playing that way when the game first came out, but have not seen it work since just after the Chosen Axes hit.

If objective play is a viable option, the queen and her ghosts are by far the best at it. Simply because they have varclav and ability to push 5/7 fighters 2 hexes during any activation. You don't have to worry about having "the right card" in hand to push models back onto objectives. Just use Varclavs ability 

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48 minutes ago, Anthony225 said:

If objective play is a viable option, the queen and her ghosts are by far the best at it. Simply because they have varclav and ability to push 5/7 fighters 2 hexes during any activation. You don't have to worry about having "the right card" in hand to push models back onto objectives. Just use Varclavs ability 

Yup, this. Thorns have a low opportunity cost to throw in some objective cards and spend an activation or two throughout the game to push Chaingrasp, and the payoff is huge. Your opponent will be hard pressed to spend resources to deny both objective play and Queen aggression.

One of my favourite moves is using Howling Vortex to push enemies off their objectives, then charging with Faneway Crystal to secure a Supremacy score.

Edited by PJetski

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I do agree that the Thorns are best equipped to try scoring Objectives, but being the best at a horridly difficult thing that even the best only make work one in s blue moon still leaves you in a bad spot.

They still need:

- Varklav alive (btw, I think he's the most important fighter in the group)

- Nobody occupying the Objectives you want

- Those Objectives within push range

- Your activation to be the final one in the round

- Your opponent to not hold ploys that push fighters off in the Power Step (Varklav cannot help you get back on at that point)

I dunno, folks, that's a lot of things that need to go right to make it work.

Not trying to be a Negative Nelly, honestly, just trying to discuss the issue as I see and experience it.

 

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While I'm not sold on Tactical Supremacy cards, I can absolutely see putting Supremacy and Our Only Way Out into thorns decks. The combination of tools available to thorns make objectives quite possible to grab and hold onto.  It's not too hard to fit quite a few safety options into thorns decks without hamstringing your ability to hit hard and effectively via the Briar Queen.

Faneway Crystal and Hidden Paths both open up options to teleport long range onto objectives that may simply be out of aggression range, particularly if you have the last activation. They're also just generally very solid threat options for the Briar Queen thanks to her 2 range attack profile.

Howling Vortex enables positioning control that's as close as anyone can get to Great Concussion at this point. This simply has a huge number of applications.

Standard cards that allow you to push and manipulate movement are obviously a given. Ready For Action can be held onto for a long range movement dive in the last power step, Mirror Move can be used to undo a push that someone uses to take you off an objective, Sidestep and Inspired Command are just generally good push cards, etc. 

None of this is to say that full-bore objective play becomes easy with Thorns (As I still remain skeptical about the viability of Tactical Supremacy cards). I would say however that there's a reason  we're seeing Supremacy and Our Only Way Out show up in loads of Thorns decks that are placing competitively at events. 

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An objective Thorns deck won a Grand Clash before the Banned and Restricted list even existed. If objective Thorns can win a Grand Clash with every deck it's facing packing Great Concussion while not packing it in their own list, it's much easier now. 

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