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Just experienced the wrong end of a Warp Lightning Vortex, 3 triggers before I could move away cause I lost the roll off. Is the consensus here, that this endless spell is fine as is written and/or for it's cost?

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I think WLV is fine at the 100 points.  We can’t guarantee we’ll get the spell cast, and frankly doesn’t work against everyone as effectively as some that are brutalized by it.  Also, you it can be dispelled on the Opponents hero phase, which I’ve seen half the time I’ve cast it.  So 100 points and rules as written seems fair to me.

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3 hours ago, Black Blade said:

Just experienced the wrong end of a Warp Lightning Vortex, 3 triggers before I could move away cause I lost the roll off. Is the consensus here, that this endless spell is fine as is written and/or for it's cost?

Vortex is really strong, but to be honest you lose the double turn against shooting. Any shooting/magic/ranged ability is deadly and you eat them twice before you can move. From terrorgheist scream to kharadon firepower, lose the double turn and you gonna feel the pain. It's just the nature of ranged damage, you can't do ****** about it and eat it twice. 

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So as @Gwendar suggested, I’ve changed my list and am going the shooty/magic route.

basically I’ll be taking with me today:

heroes:340p

1Grey seer:120p (deathfrenzy)

1Grey seer:120p(warpgale)

1Warlock bombardier:100p(deranged inventor, vigordust injector)

Battleline:360p

3x20clanrats:360p

others:1180p

6Stormfiends:520p

9Jezzails:420p(just barely got my last three build out of scrap and some Stormvermin body’s)

edit: 40plague monks:240p

endless spell:100p

warplightning vortex:100p

total:1980p

 

 

Edited by Skreech Verminking
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5 hours ago, Coyote said:

I think WLV is fine at the 100 points.  We can’t guarantee we’ll get the spell cast, and frankly doesn’t work against everyone as effectively as some that are brutalized by it.  Also, you it can be dispelled on the Opponents hero phase, which I’ve seen half the time I’ve cast it.  So 100 points and rules as written seems fair to me.

WLV is overtuned and almost certain to be changed in the FAQ for Skaven due in 2nd week of July, either in points (more likely) or function (less likely)

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12 minutes ago, Unter said:

WLV is overtuned and almost certain to be changed in the FAQ for Skaven due in 2nd week of July, either in points (more likely) or function (less likely)

I think the biggest question we should ask ourselves is, if games workshop will finally change their  misprinted pointvalue  of our Stormvermins, to what they are actualy worth (100-120p per 10)

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18 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

I think the biggest question we should ask ourselves is, if games workshop will finally change their  misprinted pointvalue  of our Stormvermins, to what they are actualy worth (100-120p per 10)

Maybe in the December FAQ? I'd be (pleasantly) surprised to see any buffs given how strong we are atm. Depends how hard the nerf us as well. I've heard all Verminlords to 320 which is fairly significant, but also just gossip at this stage.

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1 hour ago, Unter said:

Maybe in the December FAQ? I'd be (pleasantly) surprised to see any buffs given how strong we are atm. Depends how hard the nerf us as well. I've heard all Verminlords to 320 which is fairly significant, but also just gossip at this stage.

Well I haven’t really heard much, just that there will be some pointchanges for the warpseer, WPV and plague monks.

although it may just be rumors and not the actual way  Gw will proceed with the nervs or buffs for the skaven.

But really if you hear me Gw just ones give our overcosted Stormvermins a pointchange.

I’ve been waiting for 3whole years, and I just cant see an excuse of why Stormvermins should cost so much.

 

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50 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Well I haven’t really heard much, just that there will be some pointchanges for the warpseer, WPV and plague monks.

although it may just be rumors and not the actual way  Gw will proceed with the nervs or buffs for the skaven.

But really if you hear me Gw just ones give our overcosted Stormvermins a pointchange.

I’ve been waiting for 3whole years, and I just cant see an excuse of why Stormvermins should cost so much.

 

I mean, given the nerfs to other top tier armies (Nagash is now more or less unplayable, DoK took a lesser hit, even Evocators got nerfed), and there is an FAQ specifically coming out to address us, FEC, Gloomspite then there will one hundred percent be nerfs.

I agree, Stormvermin shouldn't cost 500 pts, but part of the reason they do is because we are so powerful elsewhere.

Best case scenario we get nerfed in the areas you mentioned and they knock a few points off Stormvermin, but I think we will have to wait longer for that.

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48 minutes ago, Unter said:

I mean, given the nerfs to other top tier armies (Nagash is now more or less unplayable, DoK took a lesser hit, even Evocators got nerfed), and there is an FAQ specifically coming out to address us, FEC, Gloomspite then there will one hundred percent be nerfs.

I agree, Stormvermin shouldn't cost 500 pts, but part of the reason they do is because we are so powerful elsewhere.

Best case scenario we get nerfed in the areas you mentioned and they knock a few points off Stormvermin, but I think we will have to wait longer for that.

Second time i've seen you make this point about Stormvermin and I feel compelled to respond,

I think it's illogical to blame the huge overcost of Stormvermin on "the power being elsewhere";

Let's say I own a shop that sells cars, and that i'm currently trying to sell:
A - Sports Car (WLV)
B - Average Car (Stormvermin)
I've priced car 'A' at £5k, but i've priced car 'B' at £10k, what car are people going to buy? Or rather, what models are people going to include in their lists?
If you were to buy cars 'A' and 'B' in a package for £15k, is the price of car 'B' all of a sudden justifiable because the "power is elsewhere"?

They need to bring other existing models and clans into the picture (Verminus/Moulder/Eshin) and Stormvermin are just one of many that would diversify list building in such a huge way. Throwing out a bunch of point increases isn't going to solve the issue the new Skaventide tome has faced from the start, which is far too many auto-includes and lack of diversity across lists, people will just bite the bullet and go "huh well I just get 5-10 less of X but I still get to abuse this mechanic". There's absolutely no doubt that there's multiple aspects of the tome that just straight up need nerfing, and honestly if they did so we'd still easily be a B+ tier army, but we'd still be playing EXACTLY the same lists, just with less models. 

I just generally dislike this "well A is good so it's okay that B is bad, and we can't make B any better until we make A worse" it encourages homogeneous lists and in turn discourages people from bothering to play the army in the first place.


 

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7 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:
Spoiler

So as @Gwendar suggested, I’ve changed my list and am going the shooty/magic route.

basically I’ll be taking with me today:

heroes:340p

1Grey seer:120p (deathfrenzy)

1Grey seer:120p(warpgale)

1Warlock bombardier:100p(deranged inventor, vigordust injector)

Battleline:360p

3x20clanrats:360p

others:1180p

6Stormfiends:520p

9Jezzails:420p(just barely got my last three build out of scrap and some Stormvermin body’s)

edit: 40plague monks:240p

endless spell:100p

warplightning vortex:100p

total:1980p

*snip*

I like it, although I worry about your 60 Clanrats. You'll really need to make sure you hit what you need to hit ASAP and hard before they wipe out your objective holders. MMMWP + Vigordust on the Fiends and Deranged on the Jezzails for move + shoot is great so.. best of luck to you.

43 minutes ago, Hagbean said:

Second time i've seen you make this point about Stormvermin and I feel compelled to respond,

I think it's illogical to blame the huge overcost of Stormvermin on "the power being elsewhere";

Let's say I own a shop that sells cars, and that i'm currently trying to sell:
A - Sports Car (WLV)
B - Average Car (Stormvermin)
I've priced car 'A' at £5k, but i've priced car 'B' at £10k, what car are people going to buy? Or rather, what models are people going to include in their lists?
If you were to buy cars 'A' and 'B' in a package for £15k, is the price of car 'B' all of a sudden justifiable because the "power is elsewhere"?

They need to bring other existing models and clans into the picture (Verminus/Moulder/Eshin) and Stormvermin are just one of many that would diversify list building in such a huge way. Throwing out a bunch of point increases isn't going to solve the issue the new Skaventide tome has faced from the start, which is far too many auto-includes and lack of diversity across lists, people will just bite the bullet and go "huh well I just get 5-10 less of X but I still get to abuse this mechanic". There's absolutely no doubt that there's multiple aspects of the tome that just straight up need nerfing, and honestly if they did so we'd still easily be a B+ tier army, but we'd still be playing EXACTLY the same lists, just with less models. 

I just generally dislike this "well A is good so it's okay that B is bad, and we can't make B any better until we make A worse" it encourages homogeneous lists and in turn discourages people from bothering to play the army in the first place.

Couldn't have said it better myself.. they've been costed this way for years so I don't see that being related to the current power level of everything else. 

I tend to make homogeneous lists simply because I see no competitive value in bringing Eshin, Moulder, Pestilens (aside from undercosted Monks) or Verminous... everything currently points to "Use a couple VL's and a lot of shooting.. or 40-80 Monks". That won't change until there are some fundamental changes to those lesser used scrolls, but lately their directive seems to just be "up the points of good things and lower the lesser things to force differential lists" when in fact that will likely make us far worse off.

I'm already anticipating that when our points changes come around, I'm going to just have to drop Clanrats or some Acolytes in order to make room for all these auto-includes that would cripple me if I didn't have them against other up-to-date armies. Locally, I have the most trouble with Fyreslayers and Slaanesh, but I don't see anything getting changed much with them.

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21 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Well just had another look.

And as you described it seems like it is possible to do that.

and no there isn’t an faq that changed/cleared this rule (yet).

Thank you I am just deciding how to rule this as I know there will be a couple of skin at my tournament, I didn't know if there was something similar ruled on for another used as a generic for example extra hits generated by retributors with the pray adding a hit on a 6 causes 2 mortal wounds and a hit that needs a wound and save roll and thought possibly there was something related to abilities needing to active to cause re rolls or added damage.

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Give me Stormvermin at 400 for 40, works out at about double the cost of clanrats. Gives us the choice rather than just making the bodies options for Verminus the only choice

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1 hour ago, Hagbean said:

Second time i've seen you make this point about Stormvermin and I feel compelled to respond,

I think it's illogical to blame the huge overcost of Stormvermin on "the power being elsewhere";

Let's say I own a shop that sells cars, and that i'm currently trying to sell:
A - Sports Car (WLV)
B - Average Car (Stormvermin)
I've priced car 'A' at £5k, but i've priced car 'B' at £10k, what car are people going to buy? Or rather, what models are people going to include in their lists?
If you were to buy cars 'A' and 'B' in a package for £15k, is the price of car 'B' all of a sudden justifiable because the "power is elsewhere"?

They need to bring other existing models and clans into the picture (Verminus/Moulder/Eshin) and Stormvermin are just one of many that would diversify list building in such a huge way. Throwing out a bunch of point increases isn't going to solve the issue the new Skaventide tome has faced from the start, which is far too many auto-includes and lack of diversity across lists, people will just bite the bullet and go "huh well I just get 5-10 less of X but I still get to abuse this mechanic". There's absolutely no doubt that there's multiple aspects of the tome that just straight up need nerfing, and honestly if they did so we'd still easily be a B+ tier army, but we'd still be playing EXACTLY the same lists, just with less models. 

I just generally dislike this "well A is good so it's okay that B is bad, and we can't make B any better until we make A worse" it encourages homogeneous lists and in turn discourages people from bothering to play the army in the first place.


 

The car example is totally unrelated to how ‘power budgets’ in games are developed, because people aren’t buying the cars and then going home, they are buying the cars (units) in a combination that either increases or decreases their chance to win versus their opponent with the same budget but worse choices.

 

It’s easiest to compare it to character classes in a video game with a competitive scene like League of Legends or World of Warcraft.

 

Let’s say there are 10 playable in a made-up fighting game, and one is called a Rogue.

 

Let’s say the Rogue has one of the highest win-rates in the game. Rogue players win 60% of their games while most characters hover around 50%.

 

However, everyone else has a 2 second stun attack, and he has a 0.5 second stun attack.

 

When you compare the Rogue’s stun to everyone else’s, you might say how come all of the other 9 characters have a proper 2 second stun attack, but the Rogue can only stun for 0.5 seconds? The Rogue has a worse stun than everyone else, therefore let’s increase his stun to 1.5 seconds.

 

If your objective is better game balance – do you think increasing the stun duration of the rogue to 1.5 seconds is the right move or not?

 

Will it help bring the Rogue’s win rate in line with the mean, or not? Clearly it won’t. When people are designing any kind of game like this, Characters or armies in AoS case have a power budget.

 

The Rogue’s stun is worse than the other Characters’, but he also does way more damage, or whatever other tools you want to pick.

 

Secondly, I’m sorry but you are totally wrong about list diversity.

 

Skaven have the most diverse ‘top lists’ out of any of the most competitive armies. Yes there are auto includes (WLV), but come on.

 

Gristlegore lists are almost exactly the same (corpse cart/no corpse cart), DoK lists again are almost exactly the same (Hag’Narr, sometimes snakes), top Nagash lists varied a few characters and spells and that’s about it. All top Idoneth lists have at least 18 eels.

 

Skaven have multiple Verminlord lists, shooting lists, plague monk lists and I suspect a few more hidden up our sleeves.

 

We’ve seen triple Bell lists, Jezzails/Acolytes and even a few Doomwheels/HPAs that have won major tournaments.

 

In an ideal world should this diversity also encompass Verminus and Eshin? Of course!

 

There’s nothing I’d love more, personally speaking, than to play Gutter Runners and Night Runners and have a chance of going 5-0.

 

Stormvermin are my all-time favourite models and a big part of what got me into the hobby, let’s get those guys involved!

 

As I stated earlier, I’d love to see them come down as the rest of our points go up. I simply don’t think you can do like for like comparisons in a game like this, because the game is army vs army not unit vs unit.

 

I just suspect that GW will be conservative about giving us buffs until they’ve seen the effects of the nerfs – but I would love to be wrong ❤️

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Your exemple do not work. Because Rogue do not have to choose between his stun or something else. Skaventide competitive do not have stormvermin like every Rogue have his stun. By buffing stormvermin they are not buffing skaventide, they only buff stormvermin. So until they are strong enough to be part of skaventide tournament list, they can buff them all they want without unbalancing the game. BTW DoK got some buff to some unused unit with the ghb2019. Everything is possible. 

Edited by Saodexan
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40 minutes ago, Unter said:

When you compare the Rogue’s stun to everyone else’s, you might say how come all of the other 9 characters have a proper 2 second stun attack, but the Rogue can only stun for 0.5 seconds? The Rogue has a worse stun than everyone else, therefore let’s increase his stun to 1.5 seconds.

 

If your objective is better game balance – do you think increasing the stun duration of the rogue to 1.5 seconds is the right move or not?

 

Will it help bring the Rogue’s win rate in line with the mean, or not? Clearly it won’t. When people are designing any kind of game like this, Characters or armies in AoS case have a power budget.

Do you honestly believe that this is comparable to reducing the cost of Stormvermin? Do you really think that decreasing their cost will make them an auto-include? If so we're on completely different pages.

42 minutes ago, Unter said:

Skaven have the most diverse ‘top lists’ out of any of the most competitive armies. Yes there are auto includes (WLV), but come on.

 

Gristlegore lists are almost exactly the same (corpse cart/no corpse cart), DoK lists again are almost exactly the same (Hag’Narr, sometimes snakes), top Nagash lists varied a few characters and spells and that’s about it. All top Idoneth lists have at least 18 eels.

Comparing us to something even worse doesn't make us better, is that seriously the bar we're holding ourselves up to?

43 minutes ago, Unter said:

Skaven have multiple Verminlord lists, shooting lists, plague monk lists and I suspect a few more hidden up our sleeves.

 

We’ve seen triple Bell lists, Jezzails/Acolytes and even a few Doomwheels/HPAs that have won major tournaments.

-Verminlords
-Skryre
-Monks
-Bell
You've just listed all of the things that are completely holding the tome back from being a means of providing a multitude of wacky and wonderful lists due to their rather blatant imbalance, and although the HPA buff was pretty sweet it's still not enough to carry Moulder.

49 minutes ago, Unter said:

I simply don’t think you can do like for like comparisons in a game like this, because the game is army vs army not unit vs unit.

I think this is unfortunately where we're losing each other, you seem to be too attached to this statement, regardless of its truth. I feel you're completely dismissing the fact that Stormvermin are WAY below the threshold to be even CONSIDERED an auto-include.

51 minutes ago, Unter said:

but I would love to be wrong ❤️

I pray you are ❤️

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14 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

heroes:340p

1Grey seer:120p (deathfrenzy)

1Grey seer:120p(warpgale)

1Warlock bombardier:100p(deranged inventor, vigordust injector)

 Battleline:360p

3x20clanrats:360p

others:1180p

6Stormfiends:520p

 9Jezzails:420p(just barely got my last three build out of scrap and some Stormvermin body’s)

edit: 40plague monks:240p

endless spell:100p

warplightning vortex:100p

total:1980p

 

So I’ve just played a game against my friends fec, with the list mentioned.

shortly put he won, although just barley.

well how should I put it he moved everything up to my left flank where I had my gunline protected by 20clanrats.

with his shooting he cleared my clanrats But was unable to charge because he firstly was out of range with most of his units a secondly failed to make the 10 inch charge, thanks to killing of my left over clanrats,

Which than gave me the possibility to shoot of his unit of 9flayers and his terrorgheist in a double tune of shooting.

leaving basically only his 2archregents, 2flying courtiers with wings and 2units of 3flayers each , all in range to be shoot by my Stormfiends.

In his turn he was able to do some damage to my Stormfiends and well that was mostly it.

We rolled of for the third turn and well my luck quickly changed which gave him the third turn.

as my luck has run out he killed with a double pile in with his unit of flayers the rest of my 5stormfiends, and and killed of another 3jezzails which got caught up in combat with a snicks teleport into my back (didn’t know he could do that)

and well  that was mostly game.

I was unable to cast deathfrenzy onto my plague monks since they were either out of the wholly within range or I just failed it.

left with no way to keep up with the victory points I lost, I conceded the game with an epic handshake.

so what I’ve learned with this list is basically that Stormfiends are bonkers.

they are basically my trump card killing of 2 very expensive units in one go.

with the right equipment they are basically the perfect shooting unit.

and should they go down in points as I’ve heard a few times, they’ll probably be our next plague monk kind of unit, should they fall with the point-increase.

Jezzails are fantastic as well, although having disappointed me in the first turn.

plague monks are a beast in combat killing of twice as at points as they are worth, basically the thing they’ve been since the battletome arrived, the new witch aelve unit for the skaven.

The WPV, is a massive damage dealer and has frustratedy Opponent more then once.

And the grey seer, well theres literally nothing that can stop this warpstone sniffing drugged magic phase.

basically I was rather amused from this list.

its different from the way I usually play my skaven, but I do see potential in this list.

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

"he killed with a double pile in with his unit of flayers the rest of my 5stormfiends"

"Stormfiends are bonkers."

"Jezzails are fantastic as well, although having disappointed me in the first turn."

"but I do see potential in this list."

Man, I wish my Flayers were capable of that kind of damage. Mine (even with Feeding Frenzy) at most tend to do ~6-10 wounds before saves and that's if I'm lucky. But yeah, Stormfiends are far better than what we credited them with early on in the book; they moved from a specialist unit to one that, in my opinion, is far better at shooting.. although buffed in melee can be decent if you really want that but I think it's gimping them.

Just gotta give the Jezzails some time, I always tried to play with them before our tome and they were always 2nd place to WLC's... and now I've found that the opposite is true. I still love my WLC's, but the Jezzails put out more consistent results with a larger threat range. Understand the average damage each one can put out and you can easily split your attacks and 1-shot a couple of heroes if you roll those averages.

I'm glad you're seeing some potential ways to play... we have the benefit of being able to do a bit of everything so we're never without variety. My magic heavy list was a ton of fun and performed reasonably well, although I need more practice with it. Is there anything overall you aren't sure on or would like to change next time around?

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6 hours ago, Gwendar said:

Man, I wish my Flayers were capable of that kind of damage. Mine (even with Feeding Frenzy) at most tend to do ~6-10 wounds 

Yeah, my opponent well got his luck back after having lost priority in the first turn.

He basically rolled 8 sixes killing of my wounded Stormfiend and another, why’ll another one got ripped to pieces by the rest of the claw attacks.

he then went again and did almost the same amount of damage, exactly killing the unit.

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Hello all! I have been trying to put together a 2k list with what I currently have (although I’m not adverse to picking up a few more things too!) and am curious what you all think? ((I do plan on almost always keeping the General an archwarlock as I really really like them))

 

-Archwarlock (Vigordust, MMMWP, Deranged Inventor) General

-Warlock Engineer (chain warp lightning)

-Warlock Engineer (warp lightning shield)

-Clawleader (Brutal Fury)

-40 Clanrats

-40 Clanrats

-20 Clanrats

-Warp Lightning Cannon

-Warp Lightning Cannon

-3 Stormfiends

-3 Stormfiends

-Warpfire Thrower

-Warpfire Thrower

2k on the nose I believe.

 

The thought was to have one engineer and one WLC on each corner/flank so they’d have to divide to silence the artillery. The WFT would hide in the big clan rat blobs and then blow up when in a good position. The Stormfiends would advance and act as a close ranged/combat support.

Does this seem like a decent plan? Also is there a preferred load out on storm fiends (was thinking rattling cannons, warpfire thrower, and doomflayers)?

After playing with this a bit and based on what I have read in this thread, after a few games I may try to swap out one WLC and one WE for 6 jezzails. However, I do like the redundancy of the current list.

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2 hours ago, Eocosa said:

he thought was to have one engineer and one WLC on each corner/flank so they’d have to divide to silence the artillery. The WFT would hide in the big clan rat blobs and then blow up when in a good position. The Stormfiends would advance and act as a close ranged/combat support.

Does this seem like a decent plan? Also is there a preferred load out on storm fiends (was thinking rattling cannons, warpfire thrower, and doomflayers)?

My only changes would be to drop the Clawlord and throw in a WLV.. he really won't be doing that much for you overall in a setup like this.

Other than that, your plans are solid, but remember each game you will have to adapt so it isn't always that great to have a "how to deploy and move T1-3" idea for every game. Split focus on the WLC's can be great, but you want to counter-deploy to whatever your opponent is doing, not set up the same way everytime. For example, if they're setting up all their important heroes\monsters front and center, you will likely want those front and center as well to discourage (or punish) getting in your face T1. If you deploy them on the sides, they can easily stay out of their range and LoS. Also keep in mind that you can't really "hide" the Warpfire Throwers that well.. any magic or shooting can easily just snipe them. I do like them, but they're difficult to use against other heavy shooting and I haven't used them (even in my meta were shooting is almost non-existent) in months.

For Stormfiends, I advise going full shooting with them (Ratling, Windlauncher, Flayers\Shock) and letting them be your target for MMMWP. I would also put them in a unit of 6 so they can benefit from that buff even more. If you want them to be close range, then I say Grinder\Warpfire\Flayers or Shock are best but.. it generally under-performs pure ranged options from my experience. While you're at it, I really would swap Chain Warp Lightning with another MMMWP for redundancy in case your AW get's taken out.

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Regarding FAQ - I just want GW to either confirm 32mm bases for Skrye Acolytes, or correct (?) base size back to 25mm.

At 25mm I’m a lot more likely to field than at 32, so much harder to get all the shots with bigger bases and a lot easier to get charged.

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18 hours ago, Sneakmcsneakysneak said:

Can anyone measure the size of the acolyte globe for me in mm? Looking to try kitbash some out of plague monks. 

 

TIA

I mean, the size of it really isn't important overall.. you could probably just eyeball it well enough.

Most of use just use 6mm Airsoft BB's and they're around (if not exactly) the same size. I would measure  an Acolytes Orb if I had one but... I wasn't about to spend $300 for 30 of them.

Edited by Gwendar
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