AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion

[TheadTheOgorSlayer]

28 minutes ago, Zinnar said:

So, based on that, @TheadTheOgorSlayer, if I am taking 3x20 Clanrats in a "Skryre" list just so they eat charges for Ratling Guns, Warp Lightning Cannons, Acolytes, and Stormfiends with Ratling+Windlaunchers, it's not actually the worst thing that all of my Clanrats are built and painted with spears since I can cover more table space and still get attacks in on enemies?

 

Am I reading that right?

Yes, if you wanted to keep the footprint large you won’t  be able to have as many in base contact so unless you plan on it I think spears would be superior for that use.

ill math it out as it’s just thru experience on other armies but I’m fairly sure it works out in your favour. It’s also should be noted that bubble wrapping melee units is different to wrapping ranged units, ranged units will need space so they aren’t swept into combat, melee done care and as such you can keep the footprint small.

for instance if you wrap in a round formation and someone charges an edge, you got like 5 guys within 3 inches, so with one inch weapons and no horde bonuses you only need to get an extra 3 guys in combat, which with spears should be fairly simple, the enemies foot print needs to be taken into account as well, as the situation I describe is more like a lone monster then a unit of dudes, but if every model is spaced one inch apart then spears should win

[TheadTheOgorSlayer]

Another thing with spears... they allow your front rank to attack people within 2 inches, which means you don’t need to charge to support other units, as long as you start within 3 inches of the enemy your 2 inch spears can poke above other units. This could be invaluable when your hordes start climbing over each other or in congested areas haha. Sometimes your rats might be able to contribute to a fight they normally couldn’t with this tactic, such as supporting an ally or rat on 32 mm base while still being on an objective and safe from retaliation. Sometimes it allows your front rank to poke at a character who was too close, and maybe put a wound on em. A lot of niche strategies can rely on weapons with more then 1” range, so don’t just think about the unit of clan rats itself, but your whole army as a single entity

[Inquisitorsz]

That Throne of Skulls list looks great. 
I think multiple doomwheels can be viable, and I really do like Thanquol, but he needs more testing. 

[Gwendar]

3 hours ago, Inquisitorsz said:

That Throne of Skulls list looks great. 
I think multiple doomwheels can be viable, and I really do like Thanquol, but he needs more testing. 

I've wanted to try the same but don't want to buy more..and it just isn't the same to proxy them.

Thanquol has been very worth his points. That said, I think I've had better\easier success without him as he largely ends up just casting WLV most of the game and a Grey Seer\Warpseer can get it off about as easily. This just frees up more points for plenty of other units.

[mmimzie]

Double doom wheel also interest me.

I feel like it  might work better with my list, as my list slowly meaty grinds with warp lightning vortex and other endless spells. So having the wheel doing similar  could work out well, as they run over enemies and clan rats a like. 

[Kramer]

13 hours ago, mmimzie said:

hmmm so i think for the spears vs sword arguement. I think if you are going to take advantage of death frenzy you'd be a bit better off with spears.  As each pile in and attack happens 1 at a time, meaning your range for such an attack is quite short, and the extra inch of the spears can be pretty big for getting more mileage out of the spell. 

According to that argument I would still go for swords, as  you can remove the closest model, pile in and attack and repeat. if you lose so many rats that getting those last casualties in, is difficult your better of with swords in the next turns due to the small remainder. But your argument holds true as well. So good point, well made I feel  

Just sayin, I think it comes down to personal preference b cause it’s so situational. I for one will almost always argue swords because I have both modelled. And never think, dang wish I had the spears unit here. But often think, hmmm swords would have done better. 

[Kramer]

@TheadTheOgorSlayer in response to your posts about spears vs swords. Like I said I feel it's so situational it really depends on what comes up more in that players games. For me it's swords, purely based on my playstyle I more often wish I had swords than spears. Rather than the other way around. 

So looking at your posts, which are all valid points, I was wondering how do you play them? and why?

 

@mmimzie & @Gwendar I'm lucky enough to have two and I really wanted to field them both last game but we played 1250pts so it was a bit too much for me in points. But next game I will and i'll report back! 

Edited March 27, 2019 by Kramer

[TheadTheOgorSlayer]

1 hour ago, Kramer said:

@TheadTheOgorSlayer in response to your posts about spears vs swords. Like I said I feel it's so situational it really depends on what comes up more in that players games. For me it's swords, purely based on my playstyle I more often wish I had swords than spears. Rather than the other way around. 

So looking at your posts, which are all valid points, I was wondering how do you play them? and why

Never played anything ratty that isn’t infested with rabies, pox, and the plague in my life. Just a guy who theory crafts and play tests scenarios in my free time to test those theories and wanted to point out the situations so people could make the right choice for their specific situation. We got so many clans and playstyles that even this basic choice could be super important for optimization 

[kenshin620]

Yea the spears vs swords debate is far more down to preference than one may think.

Even skeleton warriors despite people for the longest time going "if you go 40, go for spears", swords don't perform that much more worse.

[States]

I have no clue what to pick up next! Currently I have:

80 Clanrats

arch warlock, 3 engineer/bombardier

warpseer

WLC, doomwheel

grey seer, warlords, packmaster

10 acolytes, 40 giant rats

thanquol and boneripper, 6 stormfiends

2 ratling, 2 warpfire, warpgrinder

 

Don't know if I should now get : A hellpit abomination, 6 jezzails, or screaming bell + WLC (SC box).

 

What do you guys think?

[Gwendar]

28 minutes ago, kenshin620 said:

Yea the spears vs swords debate is far more down to preference than one may think.

Even skeleton warriors despite people for the longest time going "if you go 40, go for spears", swords don't perform that much more worse.

I will say that I wish I had built everything with swords. I don't expect them to ever do too much since they're just chaff in my lists, but I can definitely feel a difference in strength when I'm hitting on 3\3 or 3\4 for a lot longer than when I have a few more attacks but far worse hit\wound profiles on spears.

Quality over quantity is just my preference in this regard I suppose.

[Skreech Verminking]

1 hour ago, kenshin620 said:

Yea the spears vs swords debate is far more down to preference than one may think.

Even skeleton warriors despite people for the longest time going "if you go 40, go for spears", swords don't perform that much more worse.

Well my clanrats are through and through mixed with spears and swords that I usually just play them in a whole with swords.

it makes life much easier and I don’t have to care separating them from each other.

[Skavelynn]

2 hours ago, States said:

I have no clue what to pick up next! Currently I have:

80 Clanrats

arch warlock, 3 engineer/bombardier

warpseer

WLC, doomwheel

grey seer, warlords, packmaster

10 acolytes, 40 giant rats

thanquol and boneripper, 6 stormfiends

2 ratling, 2 warpfire, warpgrinder

 

Don't know if I should now get : A hellpit abomination, 6 jezzails, or screaming bell + WLC (SC box).

 

What do you guys think?

I'd say the hellpit abomination or the SC box, you have a lot of shooting already but no close combat hammer units. Plague monks are very good at the moment so nothing in the SC box will go to waste, and having 2 WLC will make your opponents' heroes cower-scurry in fear. But the HPA is a great choice as well.  😄

[States]

38 minutes ago, Skavelynn said:

I'd say the hellpit abomination or the SC box, you have a lot of shooting already but no close combat hammer units. Plague monks are very good at the moment so nothing in the SC box will go to waste, and having 2 WLC will make your opponents' heroes cower-scurry in fear. But the HPA is a great choice as well.  😄

I don't like the plague monks look. Don't think I will ever make them! I guess hell pit it is

[Orchid89]

How good are Plague monks in a non Pestilens army? Do they have value in a mixed Skaven list?

I doubt I will ever do a full on Pestilens army but will have some from the SC box

[Skreech Verminking]

15 minutes ago, Orchid89 said:

How good are Plague monks in a non Pestilens army? Do they have value in a mixed Skaven list?

Yes, they are the better and cheaper version of Stormvermins.

15 minutes ago, Orchid89 said:

I doubt I will ever do a full on Pestilens army but will have some from the SC box

If you don’t want to use those plague monks, there is no need to do that.

although for the rest of the start collecting, it’s great if your in dire need of a screaming bell and a warplightning cannons, which  are now viable and good units to take into your armie 

Edited March 27, 2019 by Skreech Verminking

[Orchid89]

5 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

 

 screaming bell and a warplightning cannons, which  are now viable and good units to take into your armie 

Yea, the bell/grey seer is the main reason I am buying the box

[Gwendar]

33 minutes ago, Orchid89 said:

How good are Plague monks in a non Pestilens army? Do they have value in a mixed Skaven list?

I doubt I will ever do a full on Pestilens army but will have some from the SC box

Someone did the calculations a few pages back.. 1 unit of 40 Monks works as an incredible hammer unit in lists for how cheap it is. Until Stormvermins get a points drop, I would expect to see them scarcely ran competitively outside of fluff\pure verminous armies simply because Monks get more done for cheaper.

I'm in the same boat of disliking them aesthetically (and technically due to the multiple piles of dice you will need to separate for save rolls in combat) as some others, but I mostly use shooting armies anyway.

[mmimzie]

1 hour ago, Orchid89 said:

How good are Plague monks in a non Pestilens army? Do they have value in a mixed Skaven list?

I doubt I will ever do a full on Pestilens army but will have some from the SC box

as @Gwendar said plague monks are killy monsters and definitly out class storm vermin in durability and damage. 

that said looking at it the rats aren't the most OP thing as other units like evocators/enlightend on disc/witch aelves can do similar numbers or higher. That said plague monks are quite good as a hammer unit. 

[EchoHavoc]

4 hours ago, mmimzie said:

as @Gwendar said plague monks are killy monsters and definitly out class storm vermin in durability and damage. 

that said looking at it the rats aren't the most OP thing as other units like evocators/enlightend on disc/witch aelves can do similar numbers or higher. That said plague monks are quite good as a hammer unit. 

A unit of 40 monks in combat especially if they are buffed with a furnace are the single greatest killy unit in the game. They far out shine anything you have mentioned. I run between 80 and 120 monks in my list with 2 plague furnaces. So far in combat they have killed everything they've touched. By far and away our best unit. 

Believe me when I say you don't know how good these rats are until you use them. 

[mmimzie]

59 minutes ago, EchoHavoc said:

A unit of 40 monks in combat especially if they are buffed with a furnace are the single greatest killy unit in the game. They far out shine anything you have mentioned. I run between 80 and 120 monks in my list with 2 plague furnaces. So far in combat they have killed everything they've touched. By far and away our best unit. 

Believe me when I say you don't know how good these rats are until you use them. 

I have used them. They are quite good, but i've also used all the others i listed, and the others i listed also just straight up kill anything they touch. 

Edit:
to elaborate looking at all the listed units against my tzneetch army. They can all be road blocked against  1 ten man kairic acolyte unit.  As the plague monks are rather straight forward in what they do (saving bring the slug for a gnarl maw) it's not hard  to screen the plague monks out a turn and deal with them when you get a go. Where enlightend, evocators, enlightend, and witch aelves all have more movement tricks innate to them or thier army that lets them ignore screens or move more freely. 

Plague monks when compared to morrsarr/evocators/enlightend are however very vulnerable to the anti horde spells that are growing ever more present with most each book release, and out side of death every GA and most armies can ally such a spell. 

Damage wise all of the units of note here can kill just about anything they tough in a single turn.  With plague monks being the most limited by terrain and screens reducing thier potential damage output.

I think as you say big numbers of plague monks is where things start to get spicy as you can bring so many for low pts that you are bound to hit some where. Though the other units i listed again have some other form of allowing them to hit your army with out counter (teleporting, super speed, etc). 

So to say OP or greatest killy unit of the game premature, and kind of ignore the above powerful units who i think are just as strong and in some situations stronger or weaker than our plague monks. 

Edited March 27, 2019 by mmimzie

[The_Yellow_Sign]

On 3/26/2019 at 1:42 AM, Gwendar said:

I would like to see Stormvermin get a dramatic decrease to be more in line with other "elite infantry" profiles as I really do not want to use Plague Monks to fill that killy role. I'm on the fence about the Warpseer going up, but if so I would agree that he would go up between 20-40 points and would still be quite worthwhile.

All that said, I agree that it may be too late and none of these changes actually make it in but we'll see. It's obvious they're upping the power levels of all armies rather than bringing anyone down so after a few more releases our advantages may be toned in perspective. On that note I would really like to see if they change up tomeless armies.. mostly because I'm trying to justify Dispossessed as a 4th army.

I don't see them going down much. Stormvermin are already way better at killing than Bestigors, and only slightly more expensive per model.  They have a better attack profile thanks to the allegiance ability giving +1 to hit and wound in large units, and can get way more attacks from a unit thanks to 25mm bases and 2" reach allowing 3 ranks to attack.

Edited March 28, 2019 by The_Yellow_Sign

[Skreech Verminking]

7 hours ago, The_Yellow_Sign said:

I don't see them going down much. Stormvermin are already way better at killing than Bestigors, and only slightly more expensive per model.  They have a better attack profile thanks to the allegiance ability giving +1 to hit and wound in large units, and can get way more attacks from a unit thanks to 25mm bases and 2" reach allowing 3 ranks to attack.

Comparing Bestigors with Stormvermins is a very hard thing to do, buut let’s do it anyways.

so

firstly Bestigors are a great unit but will shine when they are in small packs of ten , since they don’t really get any bonuses for beeing in large groups and in tens you can be assured that thet all get in.

Storvermins in the other hand only gain bonuses when used in large groups, and with that price on the head it’s a bit questionable to even bother using them.

if we go back to the Bestigors, will notice how this guys will get bonuses like nothing when they charge.

charge a unit with 10or more models and you even get an extra +1to hit.

Skaven stormvermins in the other hand won’t have the options for such luxury and can literally only outshine themselves  when they are used in 40s meaning that anything else is worthless with them.

if you’d throw a unit of 10Stovermins against Bestigors who costs 20points less, The Bestigors will always have the upper hand, since firstly their save is a 4+ which the Stormvermins loose as soon as you killed one of them, the Bestigors have a change of gaining an extra attack and some bonuses to the to hit characteristics, where the Stormvermins lack in such kind of Luxus meaning will be stuck on hitting on 4s, making clanrats always a better choices instead of Stormvermins.

So from experience in playing both of these units, I would really say that their points really just don’t fit them at all to well. 20points less and you might consider taking them.

Edited March 28, 2019 by Skreech Verminking

[mmimzie]

Honestly comparing anythong across armies is abit silly as different force have a lot more parts than just one unit. 

 

Bestigors are prrtty chief among the none comparables because that army doesn't really want to play like most other armies. 

 

I definitly think storm vermin should be cheaper or let them stack the +1 attack buff from the claw lord, or if the claw pack battaltion effected the whole table. 

 

Storm vermin have the same issue plague monks have where they are very straight forward and thier threat range is obvious. However unlike plague monks, the storm vermin don't pack enough punch.  Stack +1 attack (without using an artifact slot) would change that in a hurry when combined with death frenzy and other buffs. While  claw pack effecting the table would make storm vermin and clan rats more effective killers. 

[SleeperAgent]

Can Verminlord Masterclan heros take the Command Traits of any of the clans? The warscroll builder seems to think it works this way.

Also, was Verminlord Warpseer supposed to have the Clans Skryre keyword? All the other verminlord have one of the clans. 

Edited March 28, 2019 by SleeperAgent