AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion

[gronnelg]

@Riff_Raff_RascalWhere did you get the clasp things? Did you have magnets in them, or did you add them?

[Gwendar]

9 hours ago, Nikobot said:

it wouldnt suprise me to see skaven 2.0 at the end of the year.

In saying that, there are other tomes showing their age and could do with updates too like LoN, Nurgle, deepkin, Beasts, DoK even.. so who knows  

As much as I would like for this to be true, I don't know that I see it. With the current world situation, the fact other factions have older books and need it more (BoC being a prime example that you mentioned) I just don't see how they could squeeze Skaven in. I think if there's another tome update without new models, people would riot; the Eshin and Moulder lines in particular really need help both rules-wise and model-wise.

8 hours ago, Nikobot said:

I like that endless spells add tactical options to armies, it would be good to see other endless spells adjusted to see more use e.g. Laucheon was tipped to be popular until nerfed into the never-to-be-seen bin before starting. so in a way i dont want bridge changed.. its also like spell portal, now its only used by a few characters, mainly nagash for hand of dust... id like to see it changed so its providing utility/tactics to other armies other than nagash or CoS only.

Agree that fiends arent as great as they once were, their balance in the current meta aside, they really are a bit of  conundrum as unit for rules. They need changes, their shooting options are just auto-include if you are taking them and GWs policy on warscroll-to-match-kit-options leaves them difficult to write rules for that will see a unit with obvious loadouts. I hope they work out something that sees all loadouts see some value in future.

I agree.. which is why I'm hoping  there's some kind of major revamp up ahead for them. Not to mention we're seeing more armies with rules that only allow them to control it, or "endless prayers" that you can't do anything about. Both somewhat defeat what is at least partially the purpose of endless spells; to mitigate a double turn. Now granted, because only a small fraction are usable then you don't see them on the table a lot to be worth a consideration. Things like the BoC Bull is a perfect example of a good predatory spell as it  will determine whether or not you go 1st or 2nd due to it making everything fight last that it hits. Whoever wins that roll off gets to decide if they want to have a nullified turn or not. If that thing hits 2-3 units, the MW's are cool, but the fighting last is what will determine who wins that round of combat more than likely, making it a tough choice for your opponent either way. Basically, we need more spells that properly affect things and have a risk\reward feel to them instead of just doing MW's, Gemininds being another good example.

Yeah... I wouldn't mind buying more Fiends to have a shooting option and CC option (if I ever want to take, say, 12 of them) but of course they would need to likely be points dropped or buffed... kind of like Stormvermin 😉

[michu]

8 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

As much as I would like for this to be true, I don't know that I see it. With the current world situation, the fact other factions have older books and need it more (BoC being a prime example that you mentioned) I just don't see how they could squeeze Skaven in. I think if there's another tome update without new models, people would riot; the Eshin and Moulder lines in particular really need help both rules-wise and model-wise.

And as I waited for attending tournaments until I have full army I didn't use my BT even once. Please GW don't update our book yet!

[Twh30]

11 hours ago, Nikobot said:

We are at the precipice of "what does GW do next?" in terms of battletomes... now everyone has an updated tome, though some are showing age, its a big Q if they continue to update tomes at the rate they have or do they slow down and if so, how much...

I hope they continue dropping tomes, even if they arent updating models, they are improving the rules and moving things forward and i see it as a "relatively easy" option to create interest and keep everyone excited without the large overhead that new model lines create (I assume this,  as this seems to be what the general discussion suggests)

it wouldnt suprise me to see skaven 2.0 at the end of the year. when you compare skaven to the latest books like seraphon, you can see it was relatively vanilla as a ruleset and largely warscroll-driven, and whilst im very thankful for it, they didnt add in all the development bells'n'whistles that tomes have now. there were plenty of opportunities still unexplored to add depth to the tome without introducing new model ranges like :

• adding more units without new models e.g. doomwheel warlock hero variant (steam tank got 1), plague lord vs plague priest(bell plastic / metal skrolk), giant stormfiend (boneripper minus thanquol), assassin lord vs deathmaster (they had old metal assassin sculpts they shelved), variant clawlords (they had other sculpts they shelved e.g. spinetail, tretch), HPA variant possibly skryre (they have diff bits in the kit, like warpstone spike, metal claw arm), another grey seer variant (bell guy could go on foot / foot guy), im sure there are others...
• adding CAs to heroes, skaven really has minimal CA mechanic variation outside verminlords e.g. all clawlords have the same one (clawlord/brrod horror/skritch), grey seers (seriously? they lead skaven most of the time), arch-warlock, deathmaster, warlocks, plague priests etc. and this is really the way a lot of new armies are structured with heavy CA interactions
• clan sub-factions. an obvious exclusion and at a time where sub-factions were probably only starting to emerge. i can understand why it was left out at the time as skaven was one of the 1st big factions to appear and harder to manage/understand the variety it presented, and as sub-factions were just newish rulesets. I'm seeing a template for all the clans is needed. I can see it being different to the normal sub-factions too, more like the CoS one, but with greater restrictions. Narratively, the point of a clan sub-faction would be to focus on the clan, and not be as mixed as skaventide, so a focused approach to what warscrolls were allowed, and probably a more powerful set of sub-faction abilities to compensate for the limited range of army options e.g. skryre taking only skryre keyword units with perhaps 1 in 4 units being able to be from 1 allied clan in the greater skaventide range, kepping it relatively focused, getting some bebenfit of variety but not allowing you to simply cherry-pick the best units and at the same time getting a pretty good set of sub-faction abilities makes sense to me. It doesnt need to have the "set artefacts and traits" lie CoS does, and this continues to work very well with the separate trait/artefact lists available to skaventide.
• Verminlord spell lore (3), Verminlord traits (3), Pestilens prayers lore (3)
• Summoning in the form of Giant Rats and Rat Swarms makes sense like the old Warpseer CA. Using CPs for summoning seems in theme with skaven, possibly an effect of the screaming bell table as well, i wouldnt expect summon for any other units, but those 2 seem appropriate.

Anyway, some ideas that seem to fit for me and allow for opportunites of development without the need for extra model ranges.

In saying that, there are other tomes showing their age and could do with updates too like LoN, Nurgle, deepkin, Beasts, DoK even.. so who knows  

I don’t see a new battletome, if you look at a battletome realeased similar time gloom spite ( I also play this army)  their book is bit mish mash and basically skaven do what they do better ie magic and hordes. Also unlike lot of other tomes which have say 1/2 builds ours have lots viable options. I think the current battletome will be around a while and was brought out to help clean up skaven, but at least we have a lot of tricks in there to use . 

[Skreech Verminking]

51 minutes ago, Twh30 said:

I don’t see a new battletome, if you look at a battletome realeased similar time gloom spite ( I also play this army)  their book is bit mish mash and basically skaven do what they do better ie magic and hordes. Also unlike lot of other tomes which have say 1/2 builds ours have lots viable options. I think the current battletome will be around a while and was brought out to help clean up skaven, but at least we have a lot of tricks in there to use . 

There a three option I somewhat could see happening this year sooner or later.

1.a huge point drop for a considerable amount of units in our book that really need it.

2. A few new battalions through either a campaign book or the release of a white dwarf, that may give us some option.

considering how great our already existing battalions are, those usually not so great will probably be the one of the best things will ever get.

3.a campaign book, that tells the story of a skaven uprising, trying to overtake the realm of chaos from the claws of archaon and destroying the realm of azure, while providing new battalions and the possibility to field well some kind of underfactions. 

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

@Cosmicsheep Engineering indeed. Its the only way I've used my degree thus far. The base was an experiment of sorts. The flames were made using Apoxie Sculpt and painstakingly rolling up little cones. The material is much harder than green stuff but doesn't take a whole lot of force to break small diameter bits off. In hindsight, the difference between looking like tendrils and flames comes down to alternating the length of the cones AND having multiple rows flush against each other. It was more work and I was too excited to finish the base. The rock he's standing on was my first use of cork in my hobby career. I cut a wine cork in two and shaved down the round sides until they could meet together to form a "pride rock" of sorts.

The lava was a bit trickier. I hadn't used crackle paint at this point. I was going for a Terminator entrance effect which I thought looked like molten glass that cracks as soon as weight is put on it. Of course molten glass glows but isn't a solid yet and cooled glass cracks but doesn't glow. So I said ****** it, its fantasy, who cares. I placed down triangles of clam shell plastic from my recycling bin directly onto the base leaving little trenches. Once I finished  sculpting the flames, primed it, then set to work on wet blending the glow effect. At the time I didn't have any yellow paint and I was impatient so I meticulously mixed paints and it was my first ever attempt at wet blending.  At first I thought to paint the base and then put plastic over it to see through but grimy hands and the epoxy prevented that from provideing my "glass" effect. Instead I tried my hand at a clear resin pour, just a thin layer over the whole lava, and boom, reflective surface. 

@gronnelg That's the beauty of the clasps is that there's a magnet already built into it. Often you only need to clip off the loops on the outside that connects to other jewelry. I often leave them on because it grabs the green stuff/apoxy better when you let it harden. 

heres one, that's got the cylinder look to it. This one is for heavy duty stuff cause it also mechanically locks when you rotate it slightly. 

I will note that most jewelry clasps don't have male and female parts to connect and still rely on the magnets to do all the work. You definitely want ones with cylinders. 

 

[Nikobot]

14 hours ago, Gwendar said:

As much as I would like for this to be true, I don't know that I see it. With the current world situation, the fact other factions have older books and need it more (BoC being a prime example that you mentioned) I just don't see how they could squeeze Skaven in. I think if there's another tome update without new models, people would riot; the Eshin and Moulder lines in particular really need help both rules-wise and model-wise.

I dont think its that grave. You get a rules update and new bells n whistles, its keeping the game current which can only help. 
As i said, we are at a precipice as to what's next for tome rollouts. maybe we see something like, 1 hero + 1 unit with a minor tome updates to keep things rolling. maybe multikits at that.

11 hours ago, Twh30 said:

I don’t see a new battletome, if you look at a battletome realeased similar time gloom spite ( I also play this army)  their book is bit mish mash and basically skaven do what they do better ie magic and hordes. Also unlike lot of other tomes which have say 1/2 builds ours have lots viable options. I think the current battletome will be around a while and was brought out to help clean up skaven, but at least we have a lot of tricks in there to use . 

just generally speaking, I dont know if Skaven are really that good at magic now, they have some good spells, but a lot of the spells never see the light of day which is a shame. i think the game has moved on and i would be reluctant to invest much into a heavy magic build. We dont have access to enough boosts to inspire confidence i feel. gnaw holes are too out of the way to get +1 with largely short range spells, they tried to be too narrative with all the 13" ranges i feel.

I agree it was a cleanup tome, and am very thankful for it. the number of viable/competitive builds is dwindling for the higher tier play, you really only see the same armies mixing it over and over again utilising stormfiends/jezzails/monks with 3x20 clanrats. You never see mono-clan doing anything, its solely skaventide, and the rest of the units range between OK to meh. Thats being harsh and a competitive play point-of-view only, and you can play lots of units at a middle power level.

 

[Twh30]

1 hour ago, Nikobot said:

I dont think its that grave. You get a rules update and new bells n whistles, its keeping the game current which can only help. 
As i said, we are at a precipice as to what's next for tome rollouts. maybe we see something like, 1 hero + 1 unit with a minor tome updates to keep things rolling. maybe multikits at that.

just generally speaking, I dont know if Skaven are really that good at magic now, they have some good spells, but a lot of the spells never see the light of day which is a shame. i think the game has moved on and i would be reluctant to invest much into a heavy magic build. We dont have access to enough boosts to inspire confidence i feel. gnaw holes are too out of the way to get +1 with largely short range spells, they tried to be too narrative with all the 13" ranges i feel.

I agree it was a cleanup tome, and am very thankful for it. the number of viable/competitive builds is dwindling for the higher tier play, you really only see the same armies mixing it over and over again utilising stormfiends/jezzails/monks with 3x20 clanrats. You never see mono-clan doing anything, its solely skaventide, and the rest of the units range between OK to meh. Thats being harsh and a competitive play point-of-view only, and you can play lots of units at a middle power level.

 

Yes I agree with trying not to make a magic heavy list , it’s just risky now with big hitting magic armies out there ie cities and tzeentch. Mayb some simple point adjustments could be all we need? I think in the current meta we are probably still A- to b+ army

[Nikobot]

21 minutes ago, Twh30 said:

Yes I agree with trying not to make a magic heavy list , it’s just risky now with big hitting magic armies out there ie cities and tzeentch.

Plus Nagash, Arkhan, and Seraphon prob the most troublesome now too...

 

24 minutes ago, Twh30 said:

Mayb some simple point adjustments could be all we need? I think in the current meta we are probably still A- to b+ army

I think Skaven are pretty good still, can't think of situations as yet where skaven are outright not competitive, to me its just being funnelled into stricter choices and less variation for competitive play. I think points adjustments would be welcome and could shake things up, would be fantastic for less popular units but i wouldnt expect it. doesnt seem to be a trend.

[Gwendar]

9 hours ago, Nikobot said:

I dont think its that grave. You get a rules update and new bells n whistles, its keeping the game current which can only help. 
As i said, we are at a precipice as to what's next for tome rollouts. maybe we see something like, 1 hero + 1 unit with a minor tome updates to keep things rolling. maybe multikits at that.

I would be okay with that, I'm just saying many wouldn't. I'm just in this for competitive play; I don't particularly care whether or not we get a bunch of brand new models a-la Gloomspite Gitz.. but it would be nice 😉

The "big FAQ's" twice a year are meant to address at least the points changes and some minor changes.. well, typically at least. These are same FAQ's that gave us 6 Stormfiends and re-wrote (which was much-needed) the Monks.
 

7 hours ago, Twh30 said:

Yes I agree with trying not to make a magic heavy list , it’s just risky now with big hitting magic armies out there ie cities and tzeentch. Mayb some simple point adjustments could be all we need? I think in the current meta we are probably still A- to b+ army

Yeah... I stopped running the magic-based list altogether now. Last time I used it was against Sylvaneth who it worked fine with, but far too many armies can shut us down. It's nice that we have an abundance of 2-spell casters, but without anything other than being near a Gnawhole for a +1 (which you will likely only be in range of T1, maybe T2) and RR's with the Skryre Wizards or the Grey Seer\Thanquol 3d6 rolls... yeah, it isn't great compared to what other armies do; especially in terms of raw damage spells like Tzeentch or CoS. 

I don't know.. I want to say we're A-tier, but I think that has slipped down to a B to C if I'm honest.. based on last known win-rates at least. Of course, there are many factors in that like people taking more narrative\less competitive armies to large events and doing poorly.

[Twh30]

2 hours ago, Gwendar said:

I would be okay with that, I'm just saying many wouldn't. I'm just in this for competitive play; I don't particularly care whether or not we get a bunch of brand new models a-la Gloomspite Gitz.. but it would be nice 😉

The "big FAQ's" twice a year are meant to address at least the points changes and some minor changes.. well, typically at least. These are same FAQ's that gave us 6 Stormfiends and re-wrote (which was much-needed) the Monks.
 

Yeah... I stopped running the magic-based list altogether now. Last time I used it was against Sylvaneth who it worked fine with, but far too many armies can shut us down. It's nice that we have an abundance of 2-spell casters, but without anything other than being near a Gnawhole for a +1 (which you will likely only be in range of T1, maybe T2) and RR's with the Skryre Wizards or the Grey Seer\Thanquol 3d6 rolls... yeah, it isn't great compared to what other armies do; especially in terms of raw damage spells like Tzeentch or CoS. 

I don't know.. I want to say we're A-tier, but I think that has slipped down to a B to C if I'm honest.. based on last known win-rates at least. Of course, there are many factors in that like people taking more narrative\less competitive armies to large events and doing poorly.

Yea mayb we have dropped a little, I do think there The army has lot random and fun bits which lot people play which being random isn’t as competitive. Mayb we just fall in the bracket of having too many tools? Hard to decide which route to go down . I think looking at other units or tricks in the book could help to get better lists tho 

[Coyote]

 

Deathmaster-

i keep wanting to use them (have 5 models) but just can’t seem to add them to a list.  

Was even considering taking one just to hide in reserve for when Acolytes need to fight and last more than last more than 1 round of combat.  Still not worth 100 points to augment Combat for another Unit.

The Deathmaster - 

If shooting- 4 shots, odds are no wounds land.  12” range - even with 7 +1d6 Run - just not enough consistent and reliable punch.  I dont think I should field just to generate  1 wound (maybe) from shooting,

Combat - (vs characters/ multi wounds) 3 attacks - 2 hits, maybe 1 wound - odds are no wounds. (-1 rend)

Combat - 7 attacks (vs horde) - odds are 2 hits, perhaps 1 wound which might be saved. (No rend) - odds are zero wounds.

Combat results are not worth spending 100 pts.

The Deathmaster doesn’t offer any buffs outside of a Warscroll, and even then not so much. No other Command abilities outside of the norm. 

Shooting maxed 12”,  and no magic means if we are to use the Deathmaster in combat.

So, not great at Combat, only decent at Shooting but have to be within 12”, and no magic.

Help me out here, if we use the Deathmaster for other missions- what do we do? 

100 pts is a lot of points to use as a distraction especially if we give up Victory Points for secondary objectives.  That means essentially Keeping the Deathmaster out of enemy spell range, shooting and combat. 

Why bring him to the table?

He is fast, one of our fastest models.  He can use a relic - but at a 1 for 1 cost on other superb relics.  But I think that’s it.

Edited April 8, 2020 by Coyote

[Nikobot]

1 hour ago, Coyote said:

Deathmaster-

not really compelling. whilst it may score 2-3 wounds if lucky when you include shooting, its not really going to get any forseeable job done.

no force multiplier abilities, no special CA.. can jump out and surprise but for what purpose.

agree with what you said, sadly dont bring him to the table

[Skreech Verminking]

Well there are two potential artefact that could make the deathmaster a more reliable killer, or better said in a pretty high thread.

-Sword of judgement, is an incredible item for any assassin with fighting claws, at 7attacks you’ll likely get it’s special 1-2times of, which will make it possible for you to go out there and hundt some support heroes.
 

-the three fangs, another artefact I probably would enjoy more then the above mentioned one, is probably the best artefact to use psychological warfare on your frenemy’s.

at first it seems like a joke, since it is only ones per battle useable, but since it has a higher change of killing a monster/hero instantly, and much easier then rolling a 6 on a dice, even morathi will be scared of that assassin, and your foe will have to really think what he’ll be doing to nit loose his centerpiece to a lucky roll of an assassin hidden in any unit on the table.

 

 

[Nikobot]

6 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Well there are two potential artefact that could make the deathmaster a more reliable killer, or better said in a pretty high thread.

-Sword of judgement, is an incredible item for any assassin with fighting claws, at 7attacks you’ll likely get it’s special 1-2times of, which will make it possible for you to go out there and hundt some support heroes.
 

-the three fangs, another artefact I probably would enjoy more then the above mentioned one, is probably the best artefact to use psychological warfare on your frenemy’s.

at first it seems like a joke, since it is only ones per battle useable, but since it has a higher change of killing a monster/hero instantly, and much easier then rolling a 6 on a dice, even morathi will be scared of that assassin, and your foe will have to really think what he’ll be doing to nit loose his centerpiece to a lucky roll of an assassin hidden in any unit on the table.

 

the hardest thing is we usually get 1 artefact as per most builds, choosing to put it on a deathmaster to do killing is not a great use IMO. hes squishy, he isnt going to kill anything more than a support hero, it has better applications. in a more narrative sense, no problem. But it feels like a feel B-C tier army decision for competitive play.

i think you are right about the SoJ in a sense, it would make him killier, but only against heroes/monsters, but see above.

i think i recall the fangs being discussed prior, like the idea of 3 fangs too, but are you really going to use the artefact slot on something this situational. if we had 2-3 artefacts, yeah sure, i see. or if not concentrating on being competitively focused.
Its 1 use only and will kill a support hero 28% of the time. It will kill a 12W monster hero only 8% of the time. psychologically may have some effect i agree, but if the enemy knew the numbers then perhaps not. might be more useful if the enemy has an important 8W  (28%) to 10W (16%) hero. It really can do nothing most of the time, so that nags me... 3 out of every 4 games, the 1 artefact i get to take... will do nothing... hmm.

[Nikobot]

15 hours ago, Twh30 said:

Yea mayb we have dropped a little, I do think there The army has lot random and fun bits which lot people play which being random isn’t as competitive. Mayb we just fall in the bracket of having too many tools? Hard to decide which route to go down . I think looking at other units or tricks in the book could help to get better lists tho 

its super fun, i like some random and accept the trade-offs mostly. I do expect points discounts for such units. Sometimes the community can vent about the strength of something without fully acknowledging the trade-offs. Hellpit was a bit of that as an example, it was cheap for its damage output and people complained. However, it has random, not-fast movement (bitten me in the backside hard), its damage profile sees it fall away, and is a big target with a 5+ save that can't have an artefact. So it just doesn't always work as intended and should be pointed that way.

I dont think its a case of too many tools, i think at this stage its just a more raw version of where tomes are now and the synergies are just quite basic. It doesnt have the stacking of synergies that other books have these days, it doesnt have sub-factions for depth, and its hurt a lot by the battalions being poor.

[Nikobot]

17 hours ago, Gwendar said:

I would be okay with that, I'm just saying many wouldn't. 

You can't always have what you want 😉 Its 1 possible way of doing it, its apparent they can't spit out new models for new armies every month. Need to be reasonable or go back to WHFB days of 2-3 army updates per year, and even then there werent huge amounts of new models released!

17 hours ago, Gwendar said:

The "big FAQ's" twice a year are meant to address at least the points changes and some minor changes.. well, typically at least. These are same FAQ's that gave us 6 Stormfiends and re-wrote (which was much-needed) the Monks.

yes.. they have made it clear they want to do minimal errata, and wholesale changes would only come with a new tome. so if they create cool new things that can eventually spread to all books, then continuing with fast paced tome updates would see this happen in a timely fashion. i hope they continue it

 

17 hours ago, Gwendar said:

Yeah... I stopped running the magic-based list altogether now. Last time I used it was against Sylvaneth who it worked fine with, but far too many armies can shut us down. It's nice that we have an abundance of 2-spell casters, but without anything other than being near a Gnawhole for a +1 (which you will likely only be in range of T1, maybe T2) and RR's with the Skryre Wizards or the Grey Seer\Thanquol 3d6 rolls... yeah, it isn't great compared to what other armies do; especially in terms of raw damage spells like Tzeentch or CoS. 

completely agree, one of my biggest disappointments is i find i just keep using them same spells! so many warscroll spells never get cast due to bveing poor or so limited. the amount of times ive been out of range for a bloody warp lightning! and I'm supposed to overcharge! but the chance of an unbind killing my warlock is too great! should just be a failed cast, not unbind.... 3 warlocks all with MMWP is a shame.

 

17 hours ago, Gwendar said:

I don't know.. I want to say we're A-tier, but I think that has slipped down to a B to C if I'm honest.. based on last known win-rates at least. Of course, there are many factors in that like people taking more narrative\less competitive armies to large events and doing poorly.

A-B I'd say, i think its come down due to lists being played. If you cherrypick the best units (again, unfortunately ignoring most of the book nowadays) i think it can give most lists a run for their money.

[Stubby]

Just getting into skaven recently, would love some feedback on the list i plan to run eventually.

Allegiance: Skaventide

Leaders
Arch-Warlock (160)
- Artefact: Vial of the Fulminator
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)
- General
- Command Trait: Master of Magic
- Lore of Ruin: Death Frenzy
Plague Priest on Plague Furnace (200)

Battleline
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Spear
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Spear
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Spear

Units
40 x Plague Monks (280)
- Foetid Blades
30 x Skryre Acolytes (320)
1 x Doomwheel (160)

Behemoths
Hell Pit Abomination (240)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Balewind Vortex (40)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 182
 

[Skreech Verminking]

2 hours ago, Nikobot said:

the hardest thing is we usually get 1 artefact as per most builds, choosing to put it on a deathmaster to do killing is not a great use IMO. hes squishy, he isnt going to kill anything more than a support hero, it has better applications. in a more narrative sense, no problem. But it feels like a feel B-C tier army decision for competitive play.

i think you are right about the SoJ in a sense, it would make him killier, but only against heroes/monsters, but see above.

i think i recall the fangs being discussed prior, like the idea of 3 fangs too, but are you really going to use the artefact slot on something this situational. if we had 2-3 artefacts, yeah sure, i see. or if not concentrating on being competitively focused.
Its 1 use only and will kill a support hero 28% of the time. It will kill a 12W monster hero only 8% of the time. psychologically may have some effect i agree, but if the enemy knew the numbers then perhaps not. might be more useful if the enemy has an important 8W  (28%) to 10W (16%) hero. It really can do nothing most of the time, so that nags me... 3 out of every 4 games, the 1 artefact i get to take... will do nothing... hmm.

Well I only meant to give you guys an idea of how a deathmaster can really became a master of death.

I never said it would be a competitive choice, considering our lack of cheap or good battalions

[Gwendar]

5 hours ago, Nikobot said:

the hardest thing is we usually get 1 artefact as per most builds, choosing to put it on a deathmaster to do killing is not a great use IMO

Yeah.. another problem we have. Hell, I'd rather just take a WLV for 100 points; that's exponentially more likely to kill that hero\behemoth than a Deathmaster will, even with SoJ. Also, as you said.. any player that know's the math will absolutely not bother with it.
 

5 hours ago, Nikobot said:

I dont think its a case of too many tools, i think at this stage its just a more raw version of where tomes are now and the synergies are just quite basic. It doesnt have the stacking of synergies that other books have these days, it doesnt have sub-factions for depth, and its hurt a lot by the battalions being poor.

This.

The problem many of us had (and still do) is the fact that their are no real synergies between Clans.. CoS "suffers" from the same problem, but a lot of that stuff is already good on paper and you can stack buffs to astronomical levels; I mean you can make multiple units hit\wound on 2's and when you combine that with a 24" Bridge and multiple +'s to charge.. yeah. I don't know.. I feel that we're just a mish-mash to tidy up how horrible we were before the tome. Not to say we lost out; we most certainly got a better deal than some armies did (as well as some of the best dice they've released, in my opinion 😉). I can't help but think this was more of a holdover until we get a new line. I don't see it happening this year, but I will wear that tin foil hat that suggests Eshin\Moulder are so poor because they're full of old models that they don't want you to buy and new ones are going to be coming out (along with a new tome) in the future.
 

5 hours ago, Nikobot said:

completely agree, one of my biggest disappointments is i find i just keep using them same spells! so many warscroll spells never get cast due to bveing poor or so limited. the amount of times ive been out of range for a bloody warp lightning! and I'm supposed to overcharge! but the chance of an unbind killing my warlock is too great! should just be a failed cast, not unbind.... 3 warlocks all with MMWP is a shame.

 

A-B I'd say, i think its come down due to lists being played. If you cherrypick the best units (again, unfortunately ignoring most of the book nowadays) i think it can give most lists a run for their money.

It's a real shame.. I felt that we finally got to be the powerful wizards that lore always suggested, and now we've fallen behind in that regard due to not having many bonuses to casting and overall subpar spells on warscrolls and from lore-spells. Skitterleap, Warpgale, Death Frenzy and obviously MMMWP are great for what they do, but I can't help but look at what other armies get, namely CoS. They have a lot of buffing spells like we do, but if you run HH than you build a lot into spell-damage with absurd +'s to cast (and better endless spells) whereas we don't. Ah, but there I go comparing 😉


Yeah, I guess B-C isn't fair.. that's the point I tried to make before of many people would run subpar lists at major tournaments which drives that win rate down. And nothing wrong with that, people deserve to have fun at tournaments however they want. CoS had the same issue of people using their old WFHB armies that were comprised of mono lists that didn't meld to the meta.. it doesn't help that all of those statistics are compounded under "CoS" and not the individual cities.

I mean, a guy took 2nd (4-1) at an ITC event in February with 80 Monks, 6 Fiends and a single Engineer and Warpseer.. so it isn't to say you need 9 Jezzails or 2 Engineers, I just find they work well for me.  One thing I have noticed, is that Ratling Guns have become far more popular, which prompted me to look into them more.

[Nikobot]

21 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

yeah. I don't know.. I feel that we're just a mish-mash to tidy up how horrible we were before the tome.

hey, it was just version 1.0! They were probably just keeping something in the tank and a bit worried how an army with 40 units and diverse abilities was going to affect the game.

 

22 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

tin foil hat that suggests Eshin\Moulder

I'm voting for skryre/moulder as the 1st review area!  

 

24 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

(as well as some of the best dice they've released, in my opinion 😉

OH... MY... GOD! how good are they! I absolutely love them, bought 60! Just the nicest and most useful faction dice out, so happy with these and couldnt agree more 😊

26 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

I mean you can make multiple units hit\wound on 2's and when you combine that with a 24" Bridge and multiple +'s to charge..

yeah and its internal to each of the individual and many parts that make up CoS, its just a higher level of tuning that time needed to bring. I look at seraphon now, and i dont know where the dust will settle on them but some of tuning is quite crazy, not sure on the overall cost of it but it just didnt exist back then.

28 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

One thing I have noticed, is that Ratling Guns have become far more popular, which prompted me to look into them more.

Agree, same here. time to look at these again. an expendable asset designed to surgically remove more points than it costs perhaps?

[Gwendar]

2 minutes ago, Nikobot said:

I'm voting for skryre/moulder as the 1st review area!  
 

yeah and its internal to each of the individual and many parts that make up CoS, its just a higher level of tuning that time needed to bring. I look at seraphon now, and i dont know where the dust will settle on them but some of tuning is quite crazy, not sure on the overall cost of it but it just didnt exist back then.

Agree, same here. time to look at these again. an expendable asset designed to surgically remove more points than it costs perhaps?

More than anything do I just want what Warhammer Weekly suggested; Eshin\Skryre update with hints of Skurvy by way of airships. Tech-based Ninja-Sky Pirates? I'm in. Skryre and Eshin have always been my 2 favorite Clans, so if they were expanded upon in this manner I wouldn't be playing much else for a good while 😅

Seraphon worry me quite a lot actually. I've discussed it here before a bit, but their compounded synergies make the weak units on paper huge threats.. and many of them are cheap enough to bring 2-4 of them a long. I think magic based lists will be quite popular too, and surrounding the Slann with 10-20 Guard make them incredibly hard to kill in 1 turn while it can easily wipe out an opponents support heroes in 1-2 turns if they get a double turn and thus 2 Comet's Call off on you. It's unfortunate that their tome dropped at the same time everything has shut down and no-one can play. I look forward to testing against my local competitive Seraphon player and seeing what he can bring.

I've looked at them a bit before, but of course haven't been able to try it. A guy did rather decently at another tournament in February (or early March?) that ran 6 Fiends and 5 Ratlings if I recall. That can easily be done, though I would worry if MMMWP didn't go off, I wouldn't have Deranged Inventor on backup for the Fiends. I suppose the 3 Ratlings would potentially make up for that loss of damage however.

[Skreech Verminking]

On 4/8/2020 at 3:35 PM, Nikobot said:

I'm voting for skryre/moulder as the 1st review area!  

Me personally, I’m more into the clans verminus and moulder.

which is probably the reason why I’m hoping for some Stormvermin on Rat ogor Kavallerie or have the Clawlord on Bonebracker back

[The Red King]

47 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Me personally, I’m more into the clans verminus and moulder.

which is probably the reason why I’m hoping for some Stormvermin on Rat ogor Kavallerie or have the Clawlord on Bonebracker back

Oooo cavalry does sound fun but I'd prefer if they gave us something like a smaller version of the Clawlord on Brood Horror. Of course with them no longer making that model I cant really see it

[Cosmicsheep]

Hi guys, quick rules question. 

When playing against KO, when I cast Warpgale or Dreaded Warpgale on a flying vessel, should it still be able to Fly High? RAW defines flying as the ability to move over terrain without penalty (I'm paraphrasing) but is the Fly High a different kind of movement? 

I did email the GW FAQ on this some time ago but got no reply.