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How much dmg does it do on average with re rolls do you know ?

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6 minutes ago, Adam g said:

How much dmg does it do on average with re rolls do you know ?


I can tell you the mathematical damage output of stormfiends  in around 1-2hours or so.. 
unless somebody’s faster then me

 

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@Icefighter You've come to the right spot. Easy and fun is 4 blocks of clanrats and 2 clawlords. Its easiest to collect from ebay on the cheap(ish) but maybe a bit monotonous to paint. Then you can spice it up with weapon teams or a wizard by swapping out one unit. At a 1000 points clanrats really shine because of the disproportionate amount of models you can afford compared to your opponent. Whatever you come up with, it would be wise to practice using and abusing clanrats anyways in preparation for larger games to come. They will win you the game more often than not because of their objective grabbing potential. Otherwise the Skaven half of the Carrion Empire box is a great start. There's nothing more satisfying than shooting a laser cannon in such a small game. 

 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Nikobot said:

The main difference I see between fiends vs acolytes/ratlings/jezzails/HPA is resilience. They are a lonely island in Skaventide in that they can actually cop a bit of punishment and still do a job.

Thanks for your math breakdown, always great to see comparisons like that to help visualise 😊 All of those units have decent to great damage potential, but how they would go vs the shooty / magic lists is what makes fiends more reliable. They are being figured out now and the drop to 6 unit size is seeing them less threatening these days I agree. They can still earn their points, but aren't as scary.

Ratlings/Jezzails cant get hit at all or die, and you need to be careful with Vigor or MMWP, and acolytes are short ranged and squishy, and as you pointed out once they drop below 20 they are losing usefulness.

I can comfortably see 1 seraphon turn plinking off 3x ratlings with spells we will struggle to unbind, and 40x skinks shooting off most of 30x acolytes... Same thing happens with KO, or Tzeentch, or CoS. Possibly fiends would get neutered too, but its just easier vs these squishy guys.

Also, fiends can still ball in combat and people think twice about charging them unless its the right unit. Whilst you would throw any unit you could at ratlings/acolytes/jezzails.

True, though I find that the power creep in this game has meant Fiends will get instantly deleted by things just as easily as anything else; at the very least brought down to 1-2 models left which makes them effectively useless. 20 Irondrakes, 6-9 Flamers, etc will all deal with Fiends as easily as they will 30 Acolytes and 9 Jezzails.

Ratlings\Jezzails are never going to get MMMWP, so that's a non-issue for me. Fiends are still finding places in my lists and my local group knows what they can do; but most of my meta is CC oriented and there isn't much magic\shooting in it. I still want to include the Bridge as utility but not as something that they're going to be built around.. it can help deal with these shooting lists to be deployed further back and get closer in the following turn rather than trying to alpha-strike your opponent in shooting. We do have 1 local Seraphon player (probably more soon) that are building rather shooting heavy.. but that's handled a little differently than Tzeentch, KO or Cities.

I've definitely had people surprised at what they do with just the Clubbing Blows.. but generally if they get charged, it's by something that's going to fight first and they get wiped anyway 😅

 

2 hours ago, Adam g said:

How much dmg does it do on average with re rolls do you know ?

I've put out the stats before in various pages on this thread. Fully buffed (MMMWP + Vigordust + Spark), 2 Ratlings and 2 Windlaunchers (not counting their their additional +1 to hit vs. 10+ models) will do the following on average:
image.png.9a9d97cb5c231a8cdd9fd5fc307886df.png

This doesn't include Shock-Gaunlets\Doomflayers or Clubbing Blows obviously, this is strictly the shooting output.

Edited by Gwendar

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Yeah I personally feel that nothing in our army can be counted on to survive a fight so we might as well focus on maximum damage potential.  Which doesn't feel unfair to our lore but certainly can be a little unfun.

 

I guess the warpseer with ethereal amulet and verminous velour can survive a lot but that's your artifact and warlord spoken for just to not die immediately.

Screening is our only defensive tool so load up on expendable chaff. I wish skavenslaves still existed.

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Are fiends any use in a unit of 3? Also what do we think are out best counters to new seraphon? 

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4 hours ago, Twh30 said:

Are fiends any use in a unit of 3? Also what do we think are out best counters to new seraphon? 

I don't think so, personally. They won't benefit much from buffs at that size.. although I do wonder if you outfit them to be more melee-focused (Shock\Doomflayers, Warpfire and Grinders) if they could be decent. Still not worth their points compared to a dedicated melee unit in my opinion.

As for Seraphon, I've been wanting to get some competitive games in with our local Seraphon players, but my state is shutting down Thursday and we've not been able to get games in for about 1-2 weeks now. I think the standard Coalesced CC builds will be easier for us to deal with like most CC armies are; I'm more worried about the shooting\magic focused lists which is having me reconsider the Ratling Gun thing for the time-being.

That said, Seraphon are hyper-reliant on their heroes as nearly all their buffs come from them to make their units deadly. Without those buffs, their stuff really isn't all that great overall. So, yeah, long range shooting\MW's will likely be the trick. Many are going to be running 10-15 Saurus Guard to pass wounds\MW's off to on a 2+ and they have 2 wounds each so.. chewing through that to actually kill said heroes (note this is only possible with the Slann who generate all the CP but they're also threatening spellcasters) can be a challenge. I see more Jezzails\WLC's in the future potentially; any competent Seraphon player isn't going to let your 12" Ratling Cannons or 8" Acolytes get in range.

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I think when it comes to Seraphon it's going to be WLC over Jezzails for me simply because everyone in my area likes the coalesced and as I read it their "reduce the damage of attacks targeting them by 1" won't reduce the WLC because it doesn't have a damage characteristic and instead causes MW. So it's equally useful no matter which choice they bring.

 

I could be wrong though.

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1 hour ago, The Red King said:

I think when it comes to Seraphon it's going to be WLC over Jezzails for me simply because everyone in my area likes the coalesced and as I read it their "reduce the damage of attacks targeting them by 1" won't reduce the WLC because it doesn't have a damage characteristic and instead causes MW. So it's equally useful no matter which choice they bring.

 

I could be wrong though.

I can honestly see people taking 9 Jezzails and 1-2 WLC's. That can still leave you room for 6 Fiends\30 Acolytes\40 Monks\HPA, etc.

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2 hours ago, Gwendar said:

I can honestly see people taking 9 Jezzails and 1-2 WLC's. That can still leave you room for 6 Fiends\30 Acolytes\40 Monks\HPA, etc.

I thought this list could have potential . Churning out fair few mortal wounds , also having several threats . What do you think? 

A7985640-88E4-45DF-8A0B-7DE5507F42CE.png

D54A5B8C-557D-40BD-8629-F06CBE4C0D2D.png

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15 hours ago, Gwendar said:

True, though I find that the power creep in this game has meant Fiends will get instantly deleted by things just as easily as anything else; at the very least brought down to 1-2 models left which makes them effectively useless. 20 Irondrakes, 6-9 Flamers, etc will all deal with Fiends as easily as they will 30 Acolytes and 9 Jezzails.

Ratlings\Jezzails are never going to get MMMWP, so that's a non-issue for me. Fiends are still finding places in my lists and my local group knows what they can do; but most of my meta is CC oriented and there isn't much magic\shooting in it. I still want to include the Bridge as utility but not as something that they're going to be built around.. it can help deal with these shooting lists to be deployed further back and get closer in the following turn rather than trying to alpha-strike your opponent in shooting. We do have 1 local Seraphon player (probably more soon) that are building rather shooting heavy.. but that's handled a little differently than Tzeentch, KO or Cities.

I've definitely had people surprised at what they do with just the Clubbing Blows.. but generally if they get charged, it's by something that's going to fight first and they get wiped anyway 😅

yes agree, power creep is increasingly making this so. its probably just a difference of still needing a seriously decent unit to take out the fiends, whilst virtually any unit can take out the others.

so the enemy at least has to use the right unit to deal with them, but yeah, if it is the right unit then they do get neutered.
with their wound count, ablative wounds and decent save, they at least have a decent level of resilience.

what fiends do need in skaven 2.0, is a decent change to their warscroll to incentivise people to take melee builds. they certainly dont hit hard enough to be compared vs dedicated melee options currently, and they are fine as utility, but the game revolves around finding units to get a job done, and you only ever see 1 loadout. so given creep is in fashion, would be good to see the melee fiends get a bit tastier.

id like to see each fiend loadout have an overcharge, like the doomflayer fiend can overcharge and does an extra D3 attacks, but the unit takes D3 wounds on a 4+ if he does or something... so you can think about overcharging each fiend in given scenarios and might lead to people thinking about different builds. Grinderfist overcharge to tunnel on a 2+ instead of 3+ ? etc

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1 hour ago, Twh30 said:

I thought this list could have potential . Churning out fair few mortal wounds , also having several threats . What do you think? 

looks good. possibly consider swapping the priest for something else, endless spells? they dont do too much i've found. i suppose you may drop their prayer and scoop some mws sometimes, even snag a great plague potentially

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20 minutes ago, Nikobot said:

yes agree, power creep is increasingly making this so. its probably just a difference of still needing a seriously decent unit to take out the fiends, whilst virtually any unit can take out the others.

so the enemy at least has to use the right unit to deal with them, but yeah, if it is the right unit then they do get neutered.
with their wound count, ablative wounds and decent save, they at least have a decent level of resilience.

what fiends do need in skaven 2.0, is a decent change to their warscroll to incentivise people to take melee builds. they certainly dont hit hard enough to be compared vs dedicated melee options currently, and they are fine as utility, but the game revolves around finding units to get a job done, and you only ever see 1 loadout. so given creep is in fashion, would be good to see the melee fiends get a bit tastier.

id like to see each fiend loadout have an overcharge, like the doomflayer fiend can overcharge and does an extra D3 attacks, but the unit takes D3 wounds on a 4+ if he does or something... so you can think about overcharging each fiend in given scenarios and might lead to people thinking about different builds. Grinderfist overcharge to tunnel on a 2+ instead of 3+ ? etc

You mean grinderfist overcharge, to be more them 6away from Enemys instead of 9😁

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29 minutes ago, Nikobot said:

looks good. possibly consider swapping the priest for something else, endless spells? they dont do too much i've found. i suppose you may drop their prayer and scoop some mws sometimes, even snag a great plague potentially

He was there just cuz had 80 points but spells could be good choice otherwise to. 

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@Twh30 IMO the priest does basically nothing. For 80 points you could bump a clanrat unit up to 40.

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Posted (edited)
8 hours ago, Gwendar said:

I can honestly see people taking 9 Jezzails and 1-2 WLC's. That can still leave you room for 6 Fiends\30 Acolytes\40 Monks\HPA, etc.

That's basically the list I came up with your help

Grey seer on a bell, engineer, hpa, wlc, 9 jezzails, 80 clanrats, 40 plague monks 

I have 100 points left, wondering about a 2nd engineer as to not be left without any buffs if my engineer gets killed or a warp lightning vortex or something else

I still need to figure out the general, spells and artifacts since I'm new and need to read this thoroughly. I was thinking of making my engineer the general with deranged inventor for rerolls on jezzails and then using a warpstone for +dmg

Edited by Malakhov

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Twh30 said:

I thought this list could have potential . Churning out fair few mortal wounds , also having several threats . What do you think? 

A7985640-88E4-45DF-8A0B-7DE5507F42CE.png

D54A5B8C-557D-40BD-8629-F06CBE4C0D2D.png

My personal gut feeling is that the priest can be dropped, lower the arch warlock (as much as I love him) to a regular warlock if you want to keep 2 for redundancy and mobility and that gives you exactly enough points to bring the jezzails up to 9 models which is the recommended size by someone on here with a lot more first hand experience than I.

 

I also feel like the 40 monks could be a hellpit abomination which would leave you 40 points for an endless spell. Or combined with the above change you could get a 2nd WLC for consistency. Or you could drop the priest and trade monks for an HPA leaving you 120 points to fiddle around with endless spells or the like (possibly 2 rattling guns but I'm sure there are better options) I absolutely love how viable it is to build skaven with so many different puzzle pieces.

Edited by The Red King

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Twh30 said:

What do you think? 

I agree with the others in that you need to drop the Priest as he isn't doing anything. I would rather bump a Clanrat unit to 40 or take 10 Nightrunners. I also don't particularly care for Jezzails in units of 6 but that's just me 😅

I would also potentially suggest finding a way to get a 2nd WLC now that I think about it... 1 is fine, but 2 is more consistent when you really need something to die, especially if you're only running 6 Jezzails.. but like I said I'd try to up that to 9 and still take 2 WLC's if able. Typically you'll be overcharging at least 1 of them (note 1 Engineer can only Overcharge 1 WLC per turn) unless you want to gamble without it when it comes to killing that 5-wound support hero.
 

5 hours ago, Nikobot said:

id like to see each fiend loadout have an overcharge, like the doomflayer fiend can overcharge and does an extra D3 attacks, but the unit takes D3 wounds on a 4+ if he does or something... so you can think about overcharging each fiend in given scenarios and might lead to people thinking about different builds. Grinderfist overcharge to tunnel on a 2+ instead of 3+ ? etc

Yeah, I wouldn't mind something like that. I really think Fiends need to have some power given back to them. Losing those 3 extra fiends lowered their wound count too much to stand up to a lot of things... it was nice when it would take 27 wounds to start affecting our shooting, now it's only 20 and their firepower is reduced at the same time.

I'd still rather see Stormvermin go down in price so I can actually take them when it comes to dedicated melee.
 

2 hours ago, Malakhov said:

That's basically the list I came up with your help

Grey seer on a bell, engineer, hpa, wlc, 9 jezzails, 80 clanrats, 40 plague monks 

I have 100 points left, wondering about a 2nd engineer as to not be left without any buffs if my engineer gets killed or a warp lightning vortex or something else

I still need to figure out the general, spells and artifacts since I'm new and need to read this thoroughly. I was thinking of making my engineer the general with deranged inventor for rerolls on jezzails and then using a warpstone for +dmg

I always vouch for 2 Engineers if you have something reliant on MMMWP.. but in your case, you don't have anything that needs it. Jezzails should never get it in my opinion; it won't up their damage by enough and it will kill them off too quickly. For the same reason I tend to never give them Vigordust and just try to use their re-rolls to fish for 6's in a scenario where they're at -1 or more to hit.

I've been iffy about the WLV recently but it can still do work under the right circumstances.. so it's worth trying. Deranged Inventor is good if the Jezzails need to move, but 9\10 times they just get sent through a Gnawhole which isn't a move and thus they get to keep their RR's. If you take WLV, consider Skitterleap on the Bell to drop it where you need it (teleport near a Gnawhole, drop it, then escape in movement phase with the Gnawhole teleport) but Death Frenzy is probably a higher pick due to your 40 Monks.

Edited by Gwendar
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58 minutes ago, The Red King said:

My personal gut feeling is that the priest can be dropped, lower the arch warlock (as much as I love him) to a regular warlock if you want to keep 2 for redundancy and mobility and that gives you exactly enough points to bring the jezzails up to 9 models which is the recommended size by someone on here with a lot more first hand experience than I.

 

I also feel like the 40 monks could be a hellpit abomination which would leave you 40 points for an endless spell. Or combined with the above change you could get a 2nd WLC for consistency. Or you could drop the priest and trade monks for an HPA leaving you 120 points to fiddle around with endless spells or the like (possibly 2 rattling guns but I'm sure there are better options) I absolutely love how viable it is to build skaven with so many different puzzle pieces.

This is true we just have loads of options which is good thing to be able to move with the meta 

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11 hours ago, Gwendar said:

I always vouch for 2 Engineers if you have something reliant on MMMWP.. but in your case, you don't have anything that needs it. Jezzails should never get it in my opinion; it won't up their damage by enough and it will kill them off too quickly. For the same reason I tend to never give them Vigordust and just try to use their re-rolls to fish for 6's in a scenario where they're at -1 or more to hit.


I've been iffy about the WLV recently but it can still do work under the right circumstances.. so it's worth trying. Deranged Inventor is good if the Jezzails need to move, but 9\10 times they just get sent through a Gnawhole which isn't a move and thus they get to keep their RR's. If you take WLV, consider Skitterleap on the Bell to drop it where you need it (teleport near a Gnawhole, drop it, then escape in movement phase with the Gnawhole teleport) but Death Frenzy is probably a higher pick due to your 40 Monks.

I totally forgot about the jezzails ability to reroll. I was looking so much into how to do it with other units that I forgot about it.

 

Yeah I was thinking of picking death frenzy for my monks

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Screaming bell and doomwheel - do you guys do a sub assembly and paint before putting it all together?

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1 hour ago, gronnelg said:

Screaming bell and doomwheel - do you guys do a sub assembly and paint before putting it all together?

I would do that for the doomwheel.

the bell actually works kinda fine when already build.

but painting the doomwheels fully assembled is hard, extremely hard .

believe me, I’ve painted 3of those wheels.

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Do we think stormvermin may get a point decrease in ghb? Also what’s people’s opinion on them at the moment ? 

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20 minutes ago, Twh30 said:

Do we think stormvermin may get a point decrease in ghb? Also what’s people’s opinion on them at the moment ? 

Let’s just say we all hope so.

 

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Stormvermin- still waaay overcost for performing same role as Clanrats with no upside.

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