AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion

[Nikobot]

11 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

I think the loss of his true deepstriking potential with a unit is a major contributer to him not seeing play. Coming through a Gnawhole is just.. not that great considering their positioning. To be honest, using a Gnawbomb in conjunction with him is probably the best bet, but considering it's short range you'll have to set this up T2 or Skitterleap something to get it near your selected terrain. And then you have the issue of getting 2 artifacts (Ghyrstrike on the Warpgnaw + Gnawbomb).

Giving him Ghyrstrike amounts to about 11.5 wounds on average against a 4+ save which is okay but.. that generally isn't killing any big monsters and is overkill against support heroes so he fits somewhere in-between. Without it he's back down to 7.5 wounds done. So you send him at hordes.. but for 20 more points you could get 40 Monks who can handle hordes better. Splinter-Screech wants a scenario in which your opponent is conga-lining a unit but outside of that it's on luck to kill a hero with it and using it against something that's already in combat is likely wasted as it can pile-in to reform.

All that said, I know Dan Brewer was running it a lot and apparently doing well with it but he also runs Verminous heavy where I think it fits in a bit better.. this would allow you to run Claw-Horde for the 2 mentioned Artifacts.

I think that is currently the role of verminlords in general is utility, jacks of all trades, no specialist death engines here... its tricky putting them into lists sometimes and feeling like you will kill something decent with them. They all have great spells, but take a lot of effort/committment to get them to become dangerous, if at all.

i dont know if i would waste a gnawbomb on him, if you are going through that trouble... you would just skitterleap him! Gnawbomb is best reserved for a unit of fiends or monks.

[Gwendar]

1 hour ago, Nikobot said:

I think that is currently the role of verminlords in general is utility, jacks of all trades, no specialist death engines here... its tricky putting them into lists sometimes and feeling like you will kill something decent with them. They all have great spells, but take a lot of effort/committment to get them to become dangerous, if at all.

i dont know if i would waste a gnawbomb on him, if you are going through that trouble... you would just skitterleap him! Gnawbomb is best reserved for a unit of fiends or monks.

That's the issue; his utility was cut from not being able to take a unit with it and the fact it can only come from a Gnawhole. I actually forgot it can't take a unit with it anymore, which is why I suggested the Gnawbomb to get it + the accompanying unit closer to something but.. yeah that makes it even more useless as a pick for a VL 😅

[Kirjava13]

2 hours ago, Gwendar said:

That's the issue; his utility was cut from not being able to take a unit with it and the fact it can only come from a Gnawhole. I actually forgot it can't take a unit with it anymore, which is why I suggested the Gnawbomb to get it + the accompanying unit closer to something but.. yeah that makes it even more useless as a pick for a VL 😅

Precisely. Putting aside the points efficacy of the Warpgnaw, the whole fiction of him is that because he's spent so long tunneling through the cracks in reality that he can act as a guide, albeit a mad one. With his rules now, he can... come out of the same hole everyone else does. Great.

On the table, his utility is limited to letting you use the gnaw holes twice, except it has to be him. There's some use to him but way less than there was before the battletome release. His damage profile is nice, sure, but something as big as this boy isn't going to stay undamaged for long- he'll hop down his damage track before you can say "splinter-scream".

[Nikobot]

11 hours ago, Gwendar said:

That's the issue; his utility was cut from not being able to take a unit with it and the fact it can only come from a Gnawhole. I actually forgot it can't take a unit with it anymore, which is why I suggested the Gnawbomb to get it + the accompanying unit closer to something but.. yeah that makes it even more useless as a pick for a VL 😅

For 260pts, he is ok, but I also mourn the loss of heightened utility, even if you had to pay more. I'd pay over 300pts happily if he could take "call" a unit through, as I think that would open up some great tricks, or if he could deplo  unit with him maybe.

He does have the option to normal deploy too.

8 hours ago, Kirjava13 said:

his utility is limited to letting you use the gnaw holes twice, except it has to be him.

yes, and only at the start of the battle

 

8 hours ago, Kirjava13 said:

His damage profile is nice, sure, but something as big as this boy isn't going to stay undamaged for long- he'll hop down his damage track before you can say "splinter-scream".

yes, it falls away pretty quick, he really needs to get in first.

[Orchid89]

I started collecting Skaven last year but due to things going on in life I had to take a pause from AoS but looking to get back into  it. 

I only had 2 small games so I am a noob but have a fairly big army and would love to start again where i left off.

Atm I am going to stick with 1000-1250 games because of 4x4 tables .

I own,

Can I get help building a 1250 and 2000 (EDIT: I think id rather stick with 1250 for now) point Skaven army please?
Here is what I got 
1 Verminlord  (have one more but not sure if I am keeping it or selling)
1 Screaming Bell/Plague Furnace + Seer/Priest (have one more but not sure if I am keeping it or selling)
Grey Seer
Arch Warlock
Bombardier
2 Engineers
Clawlord
6 Stormfiends
40 Stormvermin
120 Clanrats
20 Plague Monks (could get another 20)
2 WLC/Catapult (have one more but not sure if I am keeping it or selling)
2 Doomwheels
Skaven Endless Spells

Id rather not buy anymore, except maybe a pack of monks if needed.

Could someone help me with a few variations of lists that I can make using this roster please?

 

I am painting them with a purple scheme and green warp OSL from underneath. Looking forward to this color scheme, I think it will look quite good

EDIT: I forgot I also have a Warpfire thrower model

 

Edited February 12, 2020 by Orchid89
Warpfire thrower

[Skreech Verminking]

2 hours ago, Orchid89 said:

I started collecting Skaven last year but due to things going on in life I had to take a pause from AoS but looking to get back into  it. 

I only had 2 small games so I am a noob but have a fairly big army and would love to start again where i left off.

Atm I am going to stick with 1000-1250 games because of 4x4 tables .

I own,

Can I get help building a 1250 and 2000 point Skaven army please?
Here is what I got 
1 Verminlord  (have one more but not sure if I am keeping it or selling)
1 Screaming Bell/Plague Furnace + Seer/Priest (have one more but not sure if I am keeping it or selling)
Grey Seer
Arch Warlock
Bombardier
2 Engineers
Clawlord
6 Stormfiends
40 Stormvermin
120 Clanrats
20 Plague Monks (could get another 20)
2 WLC/Catapult (have one more but not sure if I am keeping it or selling)
2 Doomwheels
Skaven Endless Spells

Id rather not buy anymore, except maybe a pack of monks if needed.

Could someone help me with a few variations of lists that I can make using this roster please?

 

I am painting them with a purple scheme and green warp OSL from underneath. Looking forward to this color scheme, I think it will look quite good

EDIT: I forgot I also have a Warpfire thrower model

 

For 2000 points I think a overall fun list could be this:

Allegiance: Chaos
LEADERS
Grey Seer (140)
- General
Warlock Engineer (100) Warlock Engineer (100)

UNITS
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
6 x Stormfiends (520)
1 x Warp Lightning Cannon (180)
1 x Warp Lightning Cannon (180)
1 x Warpfire Thrower (70)
ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN / COMMAND POINTS :

Warp Lightning Vortex (100)
TOTAL: 1990/2000 EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 0 WOUNDS: 190
LEADERS: 3/6 BATTLELINES: 3 (3+) BEHEMOTHS: 0/4 ARTILLERY: 2/4 ARTEFACTS: 0/1 ALLIES: 0/400

for 1000-1250poimts I’d just go with anything you’d like to try out.

with the many option you have available, it should make for some fun list combinations.

for example you could go all out on Stormvermins and clanrats, or take a few doomwheels for some movement shenanigans.

And if you really want to have some devastating shooting, Stormfiends and Warp-lightning cannons will do the trick, as long as you don’t forget to take those warlocks with you.

[Orchid89]

Thanks!

I would love to do a 2000 point sometime, I think I should stick with 1250 for now though, its much easier to find a 4x4 table than 4x6. Also as a beginer i think it might be easier?

 

I have been playing around on Warscroll Builder and put together a few lists, not sure if any of them or all of them are ok?

Not looking for competitive

1.

Allegiance: Skaventide

Warlock Bombardier (120) (EDIT: OR a Arch-Warlock (160) )
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
3 x Stormfiends (260)
1 x Warp Lightning Cannon (180)

Total: 1200 / 2000 (EDIT 1240/2000 if using Arch-Warlock)
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 124
 

OR

2.

Allegiance: Skaventide
Warlock Bombardier (120)
Arch-Warlock (160)
3 x Stormfiends (260)
3 x Stormfiends (260)
1 x Doomwheel (160)
1 x Warp Lightning Cannon (180)
Warp Lightning Vortex (100)

Total: 1240 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 63
 

OR

3.

Allegiance: Skaventide
Grey Seer (140)
Verminlord Warpseer (320)
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
1 x Doomwheel (160)
1 x Doomwheel (160)
1 x Warpfire Thrower (70)

Total: 1250 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 116
 

OR

4.

Allegiance: Skaventide
Clawlord (100)
Warlock Bombardier (120)
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Stormvermin (450)
- Halberd
Claw-horde (180)

Total: 1250 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 130
 

OR

5.

Allegiance: Skaventide
Clawlord (100)
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)
40 x Stormvermin (450)
- Halberd
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
1 x Doomwheel (160)
Warp Lightning Vortex (100)

Total: 1250 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 106
 

OR

6.

Allegiance: Skaventide
Warlock Bombardier (120)
Grey Seer (140)
- General
3 x Stormfiends (260)
3 x Stormfiends (260)
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
- Allies
1 x Warp Lightning Cannon (180)
1 x Warpfire Thrower (70)

Total: 1230 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 200 / 400
Wounds: 97
 

Are any/all of these variations ok?

EDIT:

1. I can switch the Bombardier for a Engineer + Warpfire thrower for a whole 1250points

Edited February 12, 2020 by Orchid89
Thanks

[Skreech Verminking]

30 minutes ago, Orchid89 said:

Thanks!

I would love to do a 2000 point sometime, I think I should stick with 1250 for now though, its much easier to find a 4x4 table than 4x6. Also as a beginer i think it might be easier?

 

I have been playing around on Warscroll Builder and put together a few lists, not sure if any of them or all of them are ok?

Not looking for competitive

1.

Allegiance: Skaventide

Warlock Bombardier (120)
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
3 x Stormfiends (260)
1 x Warp Lightning Cannon (180)

Total: 1200 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 124
 

OR

2.

Allegiance: Skaventide
Warlock Bombardier (120)
Arch-Warlock (160)
3 x Stormfiends (260)
3 x Stormfiends (260)
1 x Doomwheel (160)
1 x Warp Lightning Cannon (180)
Warp Lightning Vortex (100)

Total: 1240 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 63
 

OR

3.

Allegiance: Skaventide
Grey Seer (140)
Verminlord Warpseer (320)
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
1 x Doomwheel (160)
1 x Doomwheel (160)
1 x Warpfire Thrower (70)

Total: 1250 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 116
 

OR

4.

Allegiance: Skaventide
Clawlord (100)
Warlock Bombardier (120)
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Stormvermin (450)
- Halberd
Claw-horde (180)

Total: 1250 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 130
 

OR

5.

Allegiance: Skaventide
Clawlord (100)
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)
40 x Stormvermin (450)
- Halberd
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
1 x Doomwheel (160)
Warp Lightning Vortex (100)

Total: 1250 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 106
 

OR

6.

Allegiance: Skaventide
Warlock Bombardier (120)
Grey Seer (140)
- General
3 x Stormfiends (260)
3 x Stormfiends (260)
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
- Allies
1 x Warp Lightning Cannon (180)
1 x Warpfire Thrower (70)

Total: 1230 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 200 / 400
Wounds: 97
 

Are any/all of these variations ok?

EDIT:

1. I can switch the Bombardier for a Engineer + Warpfire thrower for a whole 1250points

You’ll be able to have a lot of fun with all named list up there.

edit: especially those with the doomwheel😁😜

Edited February 12, 2020 by Skreech Verminking

[Cosmicsheep]

3 hours ago, Orchid89 said:

I have been playing around on Warscroll Builder and put together a few lists, not sure if any of them or all of them are ok?

Not looking for competitive

Assuming you are going for Vanguard (1000pts, 2 min battleline) + 250pts, then option 6 is not valid. You’d have to drop the clanrats or add a second unit of them.

Other than that,  option 1 is what I would run at 1250, but the other options look fun too. 

[Orchid89]

47 minutes ago, Cosmicsheep said:

Assuming you are going for Vanguard (1000pts, 2 min battleline) + 250pts, then option 6 is not valid. You’d have to drop the clanrats or add a second unit of them.

Other than that,  option 1 is what I would run at 1250, but the other options look fun too. 

Can I not take the clanrats as allies? on Warscroll Builder if it lets me add the clanrats as allies and keeps the 2 Stormfiend battleline

 

EDIT: oooo and I just realised that on List 1. I can swap out the Bombardier for a Arch Warlock, assuming hes better...

Edited February 12, 2020 by Orchid89

[Skreech Verminking]

12 minutes ago, Orchid89 said:

Can I not take the clanrats as allies? on Warscroll Builder if it lets me add the clanrats as allies and keeps the 2 Stormfiend battleline

No sadly, the skaven can’t take themself as allies.

the only allies option you have with skaven is nurgle, and even they can only be taken when your general has the pestilence keyword

[Gwendar]

45 minutes ago, Orchid89 said:

Can I not take the clanrats as allies? on Warscroll Builder if it lets me add the clanrats as allies and keeps the 2 Stormfiend battleline

 

EDIT: oooo and I just realised that on List 1. I can swap out the Bombardier for a Arch Warlock, assuming hes better...

To reiterate on the way battlelines work:

If you wanted to go pure Skryre, Eshin or Moulder, then 100% of your army must be those units with the exception of a Masterclan unit that must be your General. The moment you add anything else, you will break that and you must add a minimum of 2x20 (f playing with 2 Battlelines) or 3x20 (if playing with 3, IE 2k points) Clanrats as your minimum battleline. The only "allies" is Nurgle as Skreech has said.

Also.. yeah, Arch-Warlock is better if you find the points for it without risking anything else being taken out. 2 Spells\Unbinds and a much better defense profile help out.

[Drib]

Spoiler

4 hours ago, Gwendar said:

To reiterate on the way battlelines work:

If you wanted to go pure Skryre, Eshin or Moulder, then 100% of your army must be those units with the exception of a Masterclan unit that must be your General. The moment you add anything else, you will break that and you must add a minimum of 2x20 (f playing with 2 Battlelines) or 3x20 (if playing with 3, IE 2k points) Clanrats as your minimum battleline. The only "allies" is Nurgle as Skreech has said.

Also.. yeah, Arch-Warlock is better if you find the points for it without risking anything else being taken out. 2 Spells\Unbinds and a much better defense profile help out.

 

Ohoh! Watch out! The Arch-Warlock only has one unbind!

[Verminlord]

How are you guys equipping units of 6 stormfiends? Two windlaunchers, two ratling guns, and...? 

[Gwendar]

5 hours ago, Verminlord said:

How are you guys equipping units of 6 stormfiends? Two windlaunchers, two ratling guns, and...? 

Generally the melee option "doesn't matter" but I just kept the Shock Gauntlets on from before the tome when I ran a unit of them on their own. I'm not sure on the math between the Shock\Flayers.. generally things get shot off the board and seldom get charged by the Fiends so Shock Gauntlets work for me if they get charged (and thus not get the benefit of Doomflayers).

Edited February 13, 2020 by Gwendar

[Kasper]

Is the $$ cost of Acolytes the real reason why very few seem to run them? A spark and MMMWP spell ontop of a blob of 30 looks insane on paper. 

I'm considering picking up Skaven as my second army and really fancy the idea of having some mean shooting output.

[Skreech Verminking]

14 minutes ago, Kasper said:

Is the $$ cost of Acolytes the real reason why very few seem to run them? A spark and MMMWP spell ontop of a blob of 30 looks insane on paper. 

I'm considering picking up Skaven as my second army and really fancy the idea of having some mean shooting output.

The reason why many player’s aren’t interested in using them, is firstly the cost (300£ for a unit if 30 isn’t really something I’d call cheap), and secondly the effort you’ll have to put into them for conversion purposes.

so any player who bought the skaven to literally just win a game will probably not have them in their army.

any skavenplayers who’s been playing them for years might have som.

as for rules, the acolytes are a fantastic source for dealing a ton of damage, especially when buffed with mmmwp, vigordust injector and sparks.

the reason why I haven’t used them too much is the lack of range and that hige footprint they have.

while they can run and shoot, you’ll soon learn that it is not always possible to get all of them into range, and that can sometimes mean that a unit that should have taken a huge ton of damage didn’t.

Those are just my opinions, but are still a great option considering that there have been a few players using them at tournaments 

[Kasper]

@Skreech Verminking So they are legit? I've seen a conversion that doesn't cost all too much yet still looks great. 

What kind of list would you make? I was considering something like this without having looked *too* much into it. I like the idea of 2 huge blobs with the smaller unit as a speed bump or to cover a flank. Acolytes between them and Jezzails in the back. The general idea was to let the opponent come to me while the Jezzails take out support heroes and Acolytes wait to bomb stuff like Mortek Guard to pieces. The spells were meant to help with slowing the enemy down to give me as many shooting phases as possible.

Batallions for Skaven seem really bad?  

Spoiler

Allegiance: Skaventide

Leaders
Warlock Bombardier (120)
- General
- Command Trait: Deranged Inventor
- Artefact: Vigordust Injector
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)
- Lore of Ruin: Warpgale
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)
- Lore of Ruin: Plague

Battleline
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Spear
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Spear
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Spear

Units
9 x Warplock Jezzails (420)
30 x Skryre Acolytes (320)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Warp Lightning Vortex (100)
Soulsnare Shackles (40)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 179

 

[Skreech Verminking]

1 hour ago, Kasper said:

Batallions for Skaven seem really bad?

The worst of the worst my friend.

and the worst part about those battalions is the huge amount points you’ll be paying, for buffs that won’t work.

I’m still wondering how Gw thought that the claw horde would make up for it’s price.

180points so your clawlord can buff himself and a unit up with his command-ability is worthless and paying 130points for an artifacts isn’t something I would ever do.

Sure your drops might go down, but you’ll still get out-dropped by any other armies.

no reason to take to battalions at all, unless hour going full out on pestilence.

that 6+ feel no pain really helps them a lot

 

Edited February 13, 2020 by Skreech Verminking

[Gwendar]

5 hours ago, Kasper said:

A spark and MMMWP spell ontop of a blob of 30 looks insane on paper. 

Check out my latest batrep in my signature (monthly meetup) to get an idea of what 30 Acolytes can do. I got all 30 into range against 20 Spite-Rev's and did 75 damage. Another game they wiped a Maw-Krusha and 2 Gore-gruntas in 1-turn with astounding amounts of overkill. I absolutely love them and believe they can carry lists as the output is nuts. Combining them with 2 other threats like 9 Jezzails and Monks\Hell Pit\Stormvermin\Gutter Runners and you have something solid. Generally advice comes down to "never combine them with Fiends" as they both want MMMWP and Vigordust to do any decent damage. You could use both if you run Deranged Inventor however so at least 1 of the units is RR hits. This also helps if you need to move your Jezzails but still want them to keep their hit RR's.. though I argue you should try to make use of Gnawholes with them as they're the best fit for Gnawhole teleporting aside from a Skitterleaped wizard using one to retreat back.

As Skreech mentioned, they can be difficult to use now that they're on 32's. I find that they work best as a reactionary unit.. but I'm also a very reactionary player. They work this way by punishing heavily aggressive units for getting too close by being able to run the full unit 3" away to make sure everything is in range which is why they work well against things like Slaanesh, Fyreslayers, IJ, etc. Otherwise, yeah, it can be hard to get 20-30 in range.. but 90% of the time those 15 or so will still blow up what they're shooting at. They're weaker against shooting armies as anyone reasonably decent is going to prioritize them and shoot them off the board which is easy to do and they're damage drops off quick since MMMWP\Vigordust will slowly eat at them (hence why you typically want a unit of 30 to take wounds for a couple turns).


For those curious, I did a quick mathhammer of the above between Fiends\Acolytes with either MMMWP or Deranged Inventor + Vigordust. Note that this also includes the +1 damage from a Spark:


So, by just pure numbers if you wanted to take both, giving the Acolytes MMMWP and the Fiends Deranged is going to net you the most against a 4+ save while the opposite will be about 9-10 less damage against a 4+. Obviously you need to take threat ranges, resiliency and point cost into account as well.. but that's just the rough numbers and you all can decide what's best for you own lists 😉

The "problem" with taking both is that you'll have a harder time taking a 3rd threat without sacrificing points in hero's, Clanrats or Endless Spells. For example, you could take 9 Jezzails, 6 Fiends and 30 Acolytes with 2 Engineers + a Grey Seer and 60 Clanrats and be left with 1960 (or swap the Grey Seer for an AW and have 1980) so it can work. Alternatively drop the Jezzails for a melee threat like 40 Monks and you can still take a Screaming Bell over the standard Grey Seer and still have room for 20 more Clanrats. So.. as I'm typing this I realize there isn't really a problem as more and more people are moving to 60 Clanrats and doing reasonably well with it. Up to you if you feel you need more Clanrats or bigger heroes like Verminlords with extra CP's or really want to bring WLV.



Sorry, I went off on a tangent again.. things like this get my mind turning and IT can sometimes have incredibly slow workdays 😅

Edited February 13, 2020 by Gwendar

[Kasper]

@Gwendar But you didn't like the monks? What else would you take instead of them? Is a second bell worthless? I just love the idea of having 2 bells run about.  

[Gwendar]

26 minutes ago, Kasper said:

@Gwendar But you didn't like the monks? What else would you take instead of them? Is a second bell worthless? I just love the idea of having 2 bells run about.  

Well, I don't hate Monks but yeah I definitely don't care for them that much. They're certainly still good but I need to do testing with a Hell Pit before I can determine what work's better for me. To me, Monks want to get out front and I just don't play Skaven that way; I'm much more reactionary and passive with the army than I am with others. A Hell Pit suites that playstyle better as it's random movement generally means it will be kept closer to your lines and works better on counter-charges in the same way Acolytes do with their short range.. at least in my point of view.

I don't find the use in 2 Bells but it isn't a bad thing and I see a good amount of tournament lists trying to incorporate 2. But I mean... if I had the choice of 3 threatening bully units and 3 support heroes or less bully units for another Bell, I'm going with that first option 100% of the time. Bells are random utility with their Peal of Doom and it often doesn't do enough as the average roll is between 5-8 and those MW's they put out are rather "meh" since it's on 4+'s.. you can't count on a VL summon and even if you get it they aren't going to equal the power level of Fiends\Acolytes\Monks\Jezzails\etc. That said, they can still cast and move after they're summoned since it happens in the Hero Phase and there's no text saying they can't move.. and being able to move a VL onto an objective for certain battleplans in which Heroes\Wizards count as X models or are the only ones that can control and objective is nice. But again, unreliable to have happen even with 2.

Overall I'm a competitive player so.. my views on certain units are just the way they are. If you want to run 2 Bells because you love the idea of it then by all means go for it.. I encourage it. Like I said, from a comp standpoint having 2 isn't bad, but I think having 2 sources of MMMWP is better as well as having 3 threats on the table opposed to 1 or 2.

[Skreech Verminking]

37 minutes ago, Kasper said:

@Gwendar But you didn't like the monks? What else would you take instead of them? Is a second bell worthless? I just love the idea of having 2 bells run about.  

Stormvermins!!

Yes-yes

Oh by the way, if anybody was wondering how the onion formation could look like.

here’s a picture 

[Gwendar]

27 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

onion formation

It would appear that Skaven have layers as well, not just Ogres.

Truly a horrifying sight, you madman.

[Num]

*casts Splinter*