AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion

[Cosmicsheep]

On 12/29/2019 at 8:29 AM, basement dweller said:

Good morning,

Ive finished painting my first 1000 points of moulder and am having second thoughts on my 2000 point list.  I feel like an endless spell would be nice for some board control.  As well, i am wondering if the verminlord is as useful at 320 as he is now.  Any thoughts are appreciated...knowing i will struggle with this list more than a mixed clan list.  Also wondering about units and sizes...maybe im better off with a bigger ogre unit but am concerned with board coverage as well.   Only so many choices with moulder and maybe im getting too stuck in the minor details.  I play some tough armies and want to do the best i can with the tools available....

@basement dweller please let us know how you get on with this army list. I too have been pondering Clan Moulder again. I’ve been thinking about starting a second army, something with fewer models, more elite. Maybe  Everchosen, BeastClaw Raiders or the new Ossiarch Bonereapers but keep coming back to Moulder and wondering whether I could make a competitive army list.

I have Thanquol as my leader (very thematic) and currently have 8 rat ogres and 40 giant rats, 10 Wolf Rats and a HellPit (plus master moulders and packmasters)

When comparing the rat ogre stats to something like the BCR mournfang pack or the Everchosen Varanguard I just don’t see how they can compete. Point for point Moulder seem way behind

I will continue to pray to the Great Horned Rat that someday GW will answer our cries

Edited December 30, 2019 by Cosmicsheep

[basement dweller]

4 hours ago, Cosmicsheep said:

@basement dweller please let us know how you get on with this army list. I too have been pondering Clan Moulder again. I’ve been thinking about starting a second army, something with fewer models, more elite. Maybe  Everchosen, BeastClaw Raiders or the new Ossiarch Bonereapers but keep coming back to Moulder and wondering whether I could make a competitive army list.

I have Thanquol as my leader (very thematic) and currently have 8 rat ogres and 40 giant rats, 10 Wolf Rats and a HellPit (plus master moulders and packmasters)

When comparing the rat ogre stats to something like the BCR mournfang pack or the Everchosen Varanguard I just don’t see how they can compete. Point for point Moulder seem way behind

I will continue to pray to the Great Horned Rat that someday GW will answer our cries

Ive got a 1000 point game this friday and will report back.  I have a mix of strong opponents and less strong opponents and so want a list that can hold its own but is also not daunting to play. 

Im hoping that the master moulder rolls to bring units back is the key random factor...some days the rolls go well and the swarms of rats and ogres keep coming back to help me win...other days the rolls are bad and i get wiped off the table.  Who knows how this goes in real life....

[gronnelg]

So guys. I had my first games against OBR the other day. Mortek guard in petrifex. Damn. They simply cannot be killed. The harvester close by didn't help. I charged them with stormvermin (ubbuffed due to circumstances) and ended up killing four. Yes, you read that right. 

So takeaway points for me: you cannot fight an OBR army. We have to use movement shenanigans, and play the objective game. 

How are people dealing with OBR? 

[Ointagru]

1 hour ago, gronnelg said:

So guys. I had my first games against OBR the other day. Mortek guard in petrifex. Damn. They simply cannot be killed. The harvester close by didn't help. I charged them with stormvermin (ubbuffed due to circumstances) and ended up killing four. Yes, you read that right. 

So takeaway points for me: you cannot fight an OBR army. We have to use movement shenanigans, and play the objective game. 

How are people dealing with OBR? 

I haven't played against them yet, but I'd use a unit of 6 stormfiends to kill harvesters from distance, and LOTS of warpfire throwers to melt Mortek guard. Something like this:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Skaventide

LEADERS

Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)

Warlock Engineer (100)

Warlock Engineer (100)

UNITS

6 x Stormfiends (520) - 2 x Warpfire Projectors - 2 x Ratling Cannons

40 x Clanrats (200) - Rusty Spear

40 x Clanrats (200) - Rusty Spear

40 x Clanrats (200) - Rusty Spear

1 x Warpfire Thrower (70)

1 x Warpfire Thrower (70)

1 x Warpfire Thrower (70)

1 x Warpfire Thrower (70)

1 x Warpfire Thrower (70)

1 x Warpfire Thrower (70)

TOTAL: 1980/2000

 

[Skreech Verminking]

2 hours ago, gronnelg said:

So guys. I had my first games against OBR the other day. Mortek guard in petrifex. Damn. They simply cannot be killed. The harvester close by didn't help. I charged them with stormvermin (ubbuffed due to circumstances) and ended up killing four. Yes, you read that right. 

So takeaway points for me: you cannot fight an OBR army. We have to use movement shenanigans, and play the objective game. 

How are people dealing with OBR? 

Theres a reason we have the option to take pretty cheap damage dealing warpflamers.

even the undead, will stay dead-dead when burned with these, me friend!

edit: If it comes down to the elite undead-things, The skaven seem to be proabably one of the few factions able to deal with them thanks to our Options of damage dealing weapons, like the Warplightning cannons, warpfire theower weapon teams, and our ability to negate damage taken on our heroes (verminous valor, horned rats protection, certain artefacts, etc.)

we are also one of the fewest faction, able to throw out -3 rend attacks onto our foe’s, and do have a lot of option for staying power, and in shutting down those damm catapults with our varanguard moving gutter runners, buffed doom-wheels and jezzails, which are popping in range through one of our gnaw-holes. 

Edited December 31, 2019 by Skreech Verminking

[Gwendar]

4 hours ago, gronnelg said:

So guys. I had my first games against OBR the other day. Mortek guard in petrifex. Damn. They simply cannot be killed. The harvester close by didn't help. I charged them with stormvermin (ubbuffed due to circumstances) and ended up killing four. Yes, you read that right. 

So takeaway points for me: you cannot fight an OBR army. We have to use movement shenanigans, and play the objective game. 

How are people dealing with OBR? 

I play OBR competitively as well and they are quite killable. As said above you need shooting... if you bring an all CC army you won't be doing well, that's a given when it comes to Skaven. OBR don't like shooting (they don't get Shieldwall re-rolls) or any high rend\damage attacks.. MW's work well too which is why Warpfire Throwers and heavy spell lists do well against them.

I agree in that you really need to bring at least 6 Buffed Stormfiends to shoot off things like the Harvesters and, well... the Mortek themselves as that's really the meat of the army.

[gronnelg]

OK. So sniping the harvesters is really the first step. And then some more shooting for the mortek guards themselves. @Gwendardo you find that a Skaven list tuned to kill OBR can still compete against other armies in a tournament? 

@Skreech Verminkingwhat is this - 3 rend weapon of which you speak? 

 

[Skreech Verminking]

20 minutes ago, gronnelg said:

OK. So sniping the harvesters is really the first step. And then some more shooting for the mortek guards themselves. @Gwendardo you find that a Skaven list tuned to kill OBR can still compete against other armies in a tournament? 

@Skreech Verminkingwhat is this - 3 rend weapon of which you speak? 

 

Poisoned wind something throwers.

(the other weapon option, stormfiends can take instead of the flamer).

althpugh I just noticed that that’s basically it with -3 rend, unless you’re a big fan of fielding a Verminlord Warbringer with the Rune ade or dimension blade.

[Gwendar]

@gronnelg Well, if you're wasting points on Warpfire Throwers then no... I don't personally find they work well as they are easily sniped by spells and shooting, which OBR has little of so it isn't a huge deal. I don't believe in bringing lists against specific armies and only run all-comers setups. I think just bringing the Fiends, Jezzails and the WLV would work well enough and you still can bring plenty of Clanrats and the like to keep objectives. Hell, this would probably also be a good case to run 20-30 Acolytes (buffed or not in this case) and they will definitely put the damage out on the Mortek and still work well against other armies for deleting hordes (or bigger things, if needed).

I would be careful about getting your Clanrats into combat with Mortek Guard as they will shred them. The best thing you can do is charge and tag 1 or so to limit pile-ins. You can always retreat and charge to reform your Clanrat blob. Also, the -3 rend weapons @Skreech Verminking is talking about is the Windlaunchers on the Fiends.

Edited December 31, 2019 by Gwendar

[gronnelg]

What do you guys think about this list? I obviously have OBR in mind, but it think it could work against other armies too? 

Allegiance: Skaventide

Mortal Realm: Ghur

Leaders

Arch-Warlock (160)

- Artefact: Gryph-feather Charm

- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!

Grey Seer (140)

- General

- Trait: Verminous Valour

- Lore of Ruin: Skitterleap

Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)

- Lore of Ruin: Warpgale

 

Battleline

40 x Clanrats (200)

- Rusty Spear

20 x Clanrats (120)

- Rusty Spear

20 x Clanrats (120)

- Rusty Spear

 

Units

5 x Gutter Runners (60)

5 x Gutter Runners (60)

30 x Skryre Acolytes (320)

9 x Warplock Jezzails (420)

 

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs

Extra Command Point (50)

Warp Lightning Vortex (100)

 

Total: 1990 / 2000

Extra Command Points: 1

Allies: 0 / 400

Wounds: 162

 

[Kirjava13]

Happy-successful new year, fellow Skaven lovers. As we contemplate the brutal culling of our Forge World offerings and vow revengeance for it, let us also look ahead to the Chinese Year of the Rat and be hopeful that GW will get their grubby little paws all over those marketing tie-in opportunities, and with the Great Horned Rat's infernal blessings we will see not only a standalone release of the Warlock Bombardier (yes-yes, he of the inexplicable 120 points) but of new verminous warriors and beasts and war machines.

[Gwendar]

5 hours ago, gronnelg said:

What do you guys think about this list?

-snip-

I like it, though it's a more standard 'super fragile' Skaven list. Personally I would rather have the AW be the General with Vigordust to give to the Acolytes when you need to be extra sure they kill something.. hell, even the Jezzails if you really want. You likely won't be getting all 30 Acolytes in shooting range (first turn at least) so you can afford to have a few die off from Vigordust and MMMWP,... just be sure a hero is always nearby for Inspiring Presence. Lists like these are one's I've traditionally liked to have a Warpseer for his giant bubble of it, but you at least have a Bell to avoid it on a unit. 

I've been wanting to include 1-2 MSU's of Gutter Runners in my list recently. They work well against armies with low board coverage to grab abandoned objectives.. but don't expect units of 5 to go killing too many Mortek Guard 😉
 

3 hours ago, Kirjava13 said:

new verminous warriors and beasts and war machines.

I won't be content until I get a proper DoK styled Eshin release with rats that don't look like apes...

...or cost me more time and money to make more "don't worry, this isn't a Clanrat" Eshin conversions.

[michu]

20 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

.or cost me more time and money to make more "don't worry, this isn't a Clanrat" Eshin conversions.

Take Plague Monks with blades and paint their robes black - instant gutter runners or night runners. You could say that their boils are because of Pestilens-made poisons.

[Gwendar]

13 minutes ago, michu said:

Take Plague Monks with blades and paint their robes black - instant gutter runners or night runners. You could say that their boils are because of Pestilens-made poisons.

I like that idea, but I've already made about 80 of what were going to be Nightrunners, tried to make BB team conversion for Gutter Runners as well but didn't care for them. Honestly the Nightrunners I did work better as Gutter Runners since they don't have any slings and all that. One day I may bring an Eshin list to a game to mess around with... we'll see.

Here's one just as an example. Just the Slave-rat bodies with witch elf hands\weapons on both arms or these claws from some dead 3rd party game:

 

[gronnelg]

@GwendarI really fear mortek crawlers. As the OBR player will get to choose who goes first, I'm likely losing half my jazzails, acolytes, or both, before they can do anything. I made the grey seer my general, to give him verminous valour, so he can survive one regular shot from a crawler. But yeah, ideally vigourdust for increased damage output.

[Gwendar]

44 minutes ago, gronnelg said:

@GwendarI really fear mortek crawlers

As you should.. they definitely hurt with our poor saves and bravery. So yeah, that's why you having those Gutter Runners is great.. once you get in combat with that thing it can't shoot and becomes a 200 point paperweight. You're banking on going first and making a 9" charge though. Until then you will have to hope it doesn't have range it will on your stuff. Skaven are a great matchup for OBR, and vice versa really. That Crawler will either destroy a unit per turn or do absolutely nothing; it doesn't do averages. I've had a guy make all 3 of his 5+ saves and it do nothing (which then let his 15 Tree-Revenants get into combat with it) and I've also had it snipe 2 Sorceress' in 1 turn.

Just roll with the punches, play it out as best you can and learn from it 😉

[gronnelg]

OBR are a great match up for us too? Really?? I thought OBR was a pretty tough match-up for us? 

[Gwendar]

5 hours ago, gronnelg said:

OBR are a great match up for us too? Really?? I thought OBR was a pretty tough match-up for us? 

Goes both ways. We have high-rend\damage shooting and MW output which they don't like. We don't like the Crawler, and the blobs of 3+ infantry can be tough to crack but.. it is for a lot of armies. You have the benefit of mobility and bodies whereas OBR typically don't. I try to run 100 Clanrats minimum in every comp list anymore.. less than that and you play an attrition games that could be dangerous for you.

Those blobs of Mortek stay relatively close together and you typically see 3x20 or 2x20 + 1x10 which leaves board coverage with them lacking a bit. Carefully charged Clanrats will outnumber them on objectives while limiting pile-ins for them while you eat away with the above MW's\shooting. It's the kind of army where if they lose a whole unit, they really feel it and often can't afford to lose much...

...like shutting down the 1-2 Crawlers with Gutter Runners. Even if you kept them from shooting for 1-2 turns or forced your opponent to dedicate a Mortek unit to guard them, that's less resources they get to use.

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

Its A little early but Happy Year of the Rat everyone! Lets hope around the 25th GW gives us some exciting news. The marketing tie-ins are just too good to pass up. 

Good luck with fighting OBR in the meantime. Haven't had the pleasure to dance around them yet.

[TheadTheOgorSlayer]

I shall be testing some rats tomorrow to see if I like em. If I do I will be using them for my next hobby project.

i tried savage orruks but they seemed a bit too grindy for my taste. They however were amazing at tanking damage. I essentially won the game by parking on objectives and buffing saves. But didn’t feel fancy enough so next I’ll be trying a more unforgiving style of close combat. Pestilens sound super fun as most combats will be quick with their Uber damage charges. Did the calculations on a 40 man unit and oh boy are they insane when fully buffed. I also think prayers are a lot less stressful then spell casting. 

Itll be a 1k game tomorrow, I’m gonna try pure pestilens (and I mean pure, no master clan funny business here)

Plague priest on plague furnace (general)

relic: Liber Bubonicus

trait: the prayer reroll one

plague priest

plague priest

40 plague monks

10 plague monks

10 plague monks

10 plague monks

10 plague monks

i believe this is 960/1000

 

i will also be looking at nurgle allegiance as an alternative as then I’ll be able to drop the two priests (they are only their for great plagues tbh) and trees seem like epic add on to these rats! I’m unsure if the abilities help that much tho.

 

[Edoval]

Hello Rats people,

 

Sorry i don't speak English well. I am thinking of starting a skaven army.

For a good start what do you think about buying 2 battleforces (corrupting war swarm)  + endless spells and gnawholes. Is it a good idea ?

I just want an all corner list and not something too much or too less competitive.

 

Thanks !

[Skreech Verminking]

1 minute ago, Edoval said:

Hello Rats people,

 

Sorry i don't speak English well. I am thinking of starting a skaven army.

1)For a good start what do you think about buying 2 battleforces (corrupting war swarm)  + endless spells and gnawholes. Is it a good idea ?

2)I just want an all corner list and not something too much or too less competitive.

 

Thanks !

1) it’s definitely a good start inti the Army in general, since you’ll be getting a few great things for a rather great price.

although it always depends if those units really are the thing you want in your army.

 

2)so you wan’t an average ok-ish army-list? 
If that’s the case I think skaven are a great faction to start as.

The skaven have a huge amount of units all great in some way or the other.

Warpfire thrower weapon teams are for example a horde clearing units, perfect for any kind of army fielding lot’s if body’s with 1 or 2 wounds.

Jezzails are perfect in sniping those pesky heroes in your way, and stormfiends and rattling guns will be able to destroy a whole lot of elite units and if necessary anything else in their way.

so we basically have a lot if options to take when it comes down to destroying our frenemies.

[Edoval]

55 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

1) it’s definitely a good start inti the Army in general, since you’ll be getting a few great things for a rather great price.

although it always depends if those units really are the thing you want in your army.

 

2)so you wan’t an average ok-ish army-list? 
If that’s the case I think skaven are a great faction to start as.

The skaven have a huge amount of units all great in some way or the other.

Warpfire thrower weapon teams are for example a horde clearing units, perfect for any kind of army fielding lot’s if body’s with 1 or 2 wounds.

Jezzails are perfect in sniping those pesky heroes in your way, and stormfiends and rattling guns will be able to destroy a whole lot of elite units and if necessary anything else in their way.

so we basically have a lot if options to take when it comes down to destroying our frenemies.

Thanks for your answer !

As a start i was looking for something like that at 1500 points (i am at work, i can't check the app for the points)

Grey seer on screaming bell as general

Lord Skreech verminking

20 clan rats

20 clan rats

40 plague monk

1 plague claw

1 warp lighting canon

 

I have a little of everything to test the the army. And i can switch between heroes as i will have 2 verminlord, one plague furnace and 2 grey seers on foot.

 

[Ineffectual Clawlord]

The problems with pure Moulder are manifold, but quintessentially it is a slow melee army that does nothing special, has no allegiance abilities and few internal synergies. However, if people want to play with their mutated rats, who am I to judge?

Spoiler

Verminlord Warpseer (320)
- Trait: Supreme Manipulator
Master Moulder (100)
- Artefact: Rabid Crown
40 x Giant Rats (200)
40 x Giant Rats (200)
40 x Giant Rats (200)
6 x Rat Ogors (300)
3 x Packmasters (60)
3 x Packmasters (60)
Hell Pit Abomination (240)
Fleshmeld Menagerie (160)
Chronomantic Cogs (80)
Extra Command Point (50

This is the Fleshmeld list that I would run if I was forced to. The key point is to have max. 2 drops in order to give the first turn away. Further, Cogs makes it more reasonable to actually reach the enemy. CP are absolutely essential, as the chance to bring back full packs is Moulders real appeal.

My advice is to ignore mono-clans; just take whatever units you like to run in a Masterclan list. Even from a roll-playing perspective, why would my supreme clan not hire someone else's disgusting subordinates to die in the stead of my disgusting subordinates?

Spoiler

Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)
- Lore of Ruin: Plague
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)
- Lore of Ruin: Death Frenzy
Master Moulder (100)
- Trait: Verminous Valour
- Artefact: Rabid Crown
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
6 x Rat Ogors (300)
10 x Wolf Rats (200)
5 x Wolf Rats (100)
Hell Pit Abomination (240)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)

This would be my interpretation. It follows the wonderfully simple formula of: battleshock-immunity + Clanrats + replace usual hammers (ranged, monks) with clan X units.

[Ineffectual Clawlord]

Concerning the OBR discussion, I'm against including units in my lists that only exist to counter specific lists or even building counter-lists to my usual opponents. I always like to approach it like I would a tournament list, namely in a balanced fashion (not in terms of power level).

Warpflamers en masse for example is highly situational. One can be quite a valuable addition as it works completely independent, i.e. takes no Skryre synergy and fits e.g. into Verminus inspired lists. That aside, they aren't even very good against OBR because of Crawlers/Nagash (ignoring the occasional non-Guard list). 

The one thing you have to think about are Crawlers, and the plan boils down to:

a) ignore them. Pretty straightforward. Yes, they will get their money's worth and put a dent into your army, but they are fickle creatures and stand an equal chance of failing.

b) occupy them. Options here include Deceiver, 5 Gutter Runners, Doomwheels. Having a deepstrike option at the very least forces your opponent to put 10 Guard on screening duty and takes them out of the initial rounds.

c) kill them. If only it was so easy. The problem with counter-sniping is that, unless you run 12 Jezzails, you can't reliable do it. 9 buffed Jezzails have a 50-50 chance to destroy. Should you fail, the Crawler, using their special ammunition, can target Jezzail morale and completely wipe them.

 

What works quite well are warpflame-ratling-doomflayer Fiends. Even if they snipe your Engineer, you still have a Flamthrower in your pocket. Other than that, all the usual archetypes, except for double Monks, works quite well against OBR.

For Jezzails you have to change your priorities slightly: focus on keeping them alive, i.e. out of Crawler range. Taking out groups of 10 Guards (or 20 over 2 turns, which they can do even with healing) means that you take them the chance to compete in many multi-objective scenarios.