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Yeah.. that Stormfiend change is odd. I understand why, but I don't think I've seen a max size for a unit go down to counter how well it's doing. If I'm honest, I think those types of lists will do just fine and I've ran 6 Fiends before which just allows me to bring Jezzails\Monks, etc and I don't have all my eggs in 1 basket. On the flipside, this means choosing a unit for MMMWP and all that will be a harder choice, depending on your setup.

Also... does the Bombardier having a horrible long-range shot really justify the 20 point hike? That's an even weirder choice as it's really the only difference between that and a standard Engineer.

I would've said 'well there goes GW's Bombardier sales' but... oh wait.. we still don't have it in a blister and they just lose sales to eBay and where you pay 2x-3x the price.

Edited by Gwendar
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What's the alternative to the Bombardiers point change though? If given the choice for the same points, you pick the Bombardier over Engineer any day.  I guess Engineer could be 80 points 🤷

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@KingOfSuede I don't disagree, unless someone for some reason thinks the pistol + blade of the Engineer is a more thematic choice...

...and you know, I'm sure a Skryre engineer would love to be up front and center.

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I'm actually glad that Stormfiends are now max 6 unit - I dont' have to buy 3 boxes. I'm just worried about Plague Monks as I've just bought a box.

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i like how they decrease points on lesser clans like moulder, ah no, they didnt think about alternatives...

 

is the 20 points of the bell worth?

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It definitely could've been worse.. although whatever the Plague Monk change is will be what shakes everything up. As it stands, the points don't affect my magic list (just remove Vermintide and that's it, really) but it definitely fubar's my more competitive builds.

I wonder if it could mean we start seeing the return of big Acolyte blocks (even with their now 100% confirmed 32mm bases) accompanied by 9-12 Jezzails or 6 Fiends? I don't see taking split Fiends in 1x6 and 1x3 or 2x6, but I could be wrong. 

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3 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

It definitely could've been worse.. although whatever the Plague Monk change is will be what shakes everything up. As it stands, the points don't affect my magic list (just remove Vermintide and that's it, really) but it definitely fubar's my more competitive builds.

I wonder if it could mean we start seeing the return of big Acolyte blocks (even with their now 100% confirmed 32mm bases) accompanied by 9-12 Jezzails or 6 Fiends? I don't see taking split Fiends in 1x6 and 1x3 or 2x6, but I could be wrong. 

Would they really incentivise Acolytes when everyone still converts them up? Or is there a possible top up release on the horizon? Acolytes, a weapon teams kit and some real Eshin.  

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@Laststand I don't think they would've thought of the byproduct being Acolytes; initially those were the hot pick once the tome released but they died out in favor of Fiends\Monks. As nice as new models would be, I don't see that coming for some time.. definitely not soon enough to have any influence on these points changes. I would much prefer a DoK style Eshin release that keeps getting a rumored\wishlisted anyway 😉

I planned to at least go to Nashcon and Nova this coming year so I will have some time to see how the meta looks with all these new updates (especially if Seraphon, Tzeentch and KO get theirs in the next couple months) before I can really decide on what is best to run. Like I said, I think 6 Fiends is still okay and will still average 30+ damage between the Cannons and Launchers.. and if Monks get destroyed, I think I would likely replace them with a points equivalent-ish unit of Acolytes and see how it goes. Running those 2 units along with 6 Jezzails would be a good focus splitter, however you then have to prioritize the Fiends vs. Acolytes for buffs, which is the big problem.

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well my list rigth now was 6 fiends and 6 jezzail, with 40 monks but always want remove the monks(i hate them), probably ill test a option with rat ogres or more clanrats and ratling gun

 

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@pacopeco I would like to believe Monks will remain a solid choice, but hard to say with GW. I like them, but I hate using them due to needing to separate 4 piles of dice. I believe a developer\rules writer said they would be getting a cleanup, which would likely mean a decrease in power overall.. but again, couldn't say as it could mean buffs in other areas (though that's doubtful).

Hopefully we won't have to wait long.. I would also really like to see everyone elses changes, particularly Slaanesh....

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27 minutes ago, pacopeco said:

well my list rigth now was 6 fiends and 6 jezzail, with 40 monks but always want remove the monks(i hate them), probably ill test a option with rat ogres or more clanrats and ratling gun

 

I have had some success with units of 6 rat ogres and a master moulder close by. Their save is poor but they pack a nice punch. That is 400pts with the MM though and they really arnt worth taking in smaller units. 

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9 minutes ago, Laststand said:

I have had some success with units of 6 rat ogres and a master moulder close by. Their save is poor but they pack a nice punch. That is 400pts with the MM though and they really arnt worth taking in smaller units. 

Wolf Rats. Do the approximately the same damage (on the charge), but with movement 12" and being less reliant on the Moulder buff. Actually, you don't need any buffs for them at all.

 

Before the PM warscroll release, I can definitely admit that I am awfully confused. Some changes make sense and are justified (Bell, Warpseer), some are perplexing (Deceiver, Bombardier but not Engineer, Stormfiends), but overall the gnawing question is: that's it?

 

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I have two primary hopes for plaguemonk changes:

1) Remove staffs as weapon option. All plague monks should be dual wielders regardless whether they are wielding staffs or knifes. Having two seperate weapon profiles on multiattack horde unit is idiotic. This makes using them much faster (sure corruptors command ability will be bad too then, but eh it wasn't that great to begin with)

2) give them just one banner and one musician. I personally think that both the damage banner and rend bell should be gone. Why these two? Because plague monks are still incredible damage dealers without them and they should not be this universal super unit that can do well against heavy armored opponents too. Also these 2 slow the game down to crawl because any time you got to look for those 6s, it takes away many minutes of precious game time.

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9 hours ago, gronnelg said:

Guys - how do you feel about taking plague monks, without taking a plague furnace?

Without a doubt plague monks are great in a vacuum. They just wreck stuff. Also consider other things you can synergize with like Death Frenzy, Skavenbrew all using cheaper heroes or ones you already have in a list.

However, I can not in good conscience recommend plague monks at all. They are culprits of bad play experience, both for you and your opponent. I could completely ignore their killing power potential and still not see a fun reason to play them. That dice rolling time sink is just hellish. 

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36 minutes ago, Riff_Raff_Rascal said:

That dice rolling time sink is just hellish. 

Precisely why I've only used them like.. twice and then promptly stopped. I was really hoping for Stormvermin to go down enough to justify them (better sculpts, easier warscroll, damage potential still there without buffs) but I really don't think it's going to happen.. for some reason GW seems bent on making them over-costed. I can see why they would want to be cautious at the same time however; stacking the right buffs with a lower point cost would make them nuts, just like Monks.. but I mean, everyone has the ability to stack buffs on a unit to make 1 thing a heavy hitting pick that you'll take 99% of the time.

Also, it should be noted that Hearthguard Berserkers also got a max unit change down to 20, but I don't think that quite compares to losing a whole 3 Fiends like we did. 

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5 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

Precisely why I've only used them like.. twice and then promptly stopped. I was really hoping for Stormvermin to go down enough to justify them (better sculpts, easier warscroll, damage potential still there without buffs) but I really don't think it's going to happen.. for some reason GW seems bent on making them over-costed. I can see why they would want to be cautious at the same time however; stacking the right buffs with a lower point cost would make them nuts, just like Monks.. but I mean, everyone has the ability to stack buffs on a unit to make 1 thing a heavy hitting pick that you'll take 99% of the time.

Also, it should be noted that Hearthguard Berserkers also got a max unit change down to 20, but I don't think that quite compares to losing a whole 3 Fiends like we did. 

40 Stormvermin for 450 pts, or 40 Mortek Guard for 440 pts. No idea where GW get their points sometime...

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Said it in the rumour thread but whose bright idea was bumping the Bombardier up to 120 points? Is his 50% hit chance 18" range attack which can kill him if he tries to use it to do real damage just too good? 

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12 minutes ago, Kirjava13 said:

Said it in the rumour thread but whose bright idea was bumping the Bombardier up to 120 points? Is his 50% hit chance 18" range attack which can kill him if he tries to use it to do real damage just too good? 

All greatest of plans are property of Great Horned Rat Thanquol. 

It's all part of his materplan! 

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1 hour ago, Kirjava13 said:

Said it in the rumour thread but whose bright idea was bumping the Bombardier up to 120 points? Is his 50% hit chance 18" range attack which can kill him if he tries to use it to do real damage just too good? 

Right? I mean as others have said, I guess they felt like it needed a points change because no-one uses the Engineer now.. but at that point I would rather just discontinue the Engineer and use the Bombardier warscroll as the only 'engineer' next to the AW, especially when they only sell old sculpts of the Engineers.

Or you assume what I have: They don't sell the Bombardier (will they ever at this point?) but do sell the Engineers. You can probably work out the reasoning there.

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4 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

Right? I mean as others have said, I guess they felt like it needed a points change because no-one uses the Engineer now.. but at that point I would rather just discontinue the Engineer and use the Bombardier warscroll as the only 'engineer' next to the AW, especially when they only sell old sculpts of the Engineers.

Or you assume what I have: They don't sell the Bombardier (will they ever at this point?) but do sell the Engineers. You can probably work out the reasoning there.

Why not just take the Engineer down to 90, like, say the Hag Queen, who is a much more survivable and valuable character? Instead the Bombardier is now 20 more points than a Slaughter Queen! I can only assume someone in the rules department came in hungover, or high, or just mashed the keypad of a calculator at random.

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