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9 hours ago, Ineffectual Clawlord said:

Crawlers target unmodified bravery. Which leads to rather strange results at times, e.g. Giant Rats with their base bravery of 3 would lose 2/3 of their unit despite (if we assume a Moulder hero within range) having a bravery against battleshock tests of 12 as long as they remain over 30. The bravery system is a bit of a mess.

You'll have a hard time not getting value out of Crawlers against Skaven. Assuming 4 attacks with 2+/3+ that's 2.2 attacks hitting before armour save.

We'll see how it plays out and how popular the army becomes.

Unmodified bravery😱,

never mind that thing is hideously overpowered.

well st least we have a change of  keeping it from firing when in combat.

ps: I was thinking of taking the buffs and debuffs to my army since my local players seem to be very interested in mindrazored daughters and flesh eater.

those buffs should keep my units alive for a bit longer 

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14 hours ago, Gwendar said:

also, remember that Reinforce Battle Shields (the 5+ save spell) is only against MW's

ooh im not sure if he was doing it for only mortals or not. I think he played it right but ill double check with him. 

 

14 hours ago, Gwendar said:

but I've also seen Longstrikes, Jezzails, Ballistas, Comet, WLV, Ungor Raiders, etc kill things in 1 turn too from crazy ranges or teleport shenanigans.

Most of those require added support though to really do their thing, or taking them in bulk to spam it ( a unit of 2 jezaails is 140 pts and that aint gonna do ****** for ya lol)  You're not wrong though, theirs definitely some equally crappy stuff out there. SCE alpha strike/shoot cast has made for some of the worst game experiences ive ever had in AOS lol. But again, the point cost is the big thing that sets the crawler apart because it does everything it needs to by itself.  

 

 

15 hours ago, Gwendar said:

Yes, I would agree to some extent.. but I think people bringing 1 is just fine for what it does. The 'problem' with OBR is all of your special stuff is ~200 points. Harvester, Stalkers, Crawlers are all 200 points while Morghasts (no) are 210 and Deathriders (eh..) 180. After bringing the standard 20-20-20\20-20-10 Mortek and your assortment of 2-4 Heroes, you generally have just enough left for 2 of the above + some Endless Spells. Some take 2 Crawlers, some take 6 Stalkers or a mix, but the Crawler is an undoubtedly amazing choice and I don't think a points hike on it will do much unless it goes to 250, at which point you will really hurt the points economy unless other stuff goes down, in my opinion.

Hmm, i see what you're saying,, but isnt that just how list building works? If you cant take 20/20/20 mortek, then take 10/10./20 you should have to lose on something somewhere else if you want to bring powerful stuff. If the price hiked to 250 that just means they need to find those points elsewhere like every other army does. having 1 model whose points are too low for it shouldnt be glossed over because it would throw the rest of the points out of whack, that's what playtesting is for.  And im a cynical/pragmatic person, so in my mind this is GW saying, oh hey we can keep the cost low enough to where we can sell 2 models instead of having it fairly priced and then have them only want 1 of this or not picking up a box of stalkers because they dont have room for it in the list. 

I think your reasoning is sound, but i also think thats bad reasoning to work off of for game design. All units should be very close to their point worth, i know its not going to be perfect, so those 10/20 pt adjustments are the right way to go with the GHB. But something like the crawler should never have been that low in the first place and it shouldnt be excused because the rest of the list building is affected by it. If thats the case then GW should have playtested the army more and made other adjustments on profiles or point costs where needed.

15 hours ago, Gwendar said:

while Morghasts (no) are 210 and Deathriders (eh..) 180. After bringing the standard 20-20-20\20-20-10 Mortek and your assortment of 2-4 Heroes, you generally have just enough left for 2 of the above + some Endless Spells.

If the other battleline/unit options arent worth bringing because mortek gaurd are so good, then either adjust mortek profile, raise their points, or adjust the other units profiles/points to make them viable. Thats the real problem GW has, they keep making one unit the obvious choice, or one sub faction in the book the must take option for competitive play. And then they adjust the points 1x a year and think thats enough. 

 

15 hours ago, Gwendar said:

Anyway, I loved the writeup and would like to see another if you play again. I agree that I think some higher rend\damage would potentially be the way to go as it really is the Mortek Guard that are the key to that army... 

Thanks, i appreciate your input and its good to see the problem through an OBR players eyes as well. Like i said, we gotta give the army some time to truly see if its a problem, but the crawler is just one of those units that makes me lose faith in GW as a game designer versus a company trying to sell plastic. 

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13 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

ps: I was thinking of taking the buffs and debuffs to my army since my local players seem to be very interested in mindrazored daughters and flesh eater.

those buffs should keep my units alive for a bit longer 

ooh thats fair, if the local meta calls for it thats what you gotta do! I run my fyreslayers hearthgaurd berzerkers with poleaxes because my local meta is really heavy on high  AS/ ethereal nonsense so MWs are my only real option. Even though the axes are more reliable dmg. 

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6 hours ago, Ser_namron said:

because it does everything it needs to by itself.  

-snip-

Thanks, i appreciate your input and its good to see the problem through an OBR players eyes as well. Like i said, we gotta give the army some time to truly see if its a problem, but the crawler is just one of those units that makes me lose faith in GW as a game designer versus a company trying to sell plastic. 

But you need to understand that the Ossiarchs in general can do nearly everything by themselves and don't require tons of support from Heroes and the like. All in all, yeah the Crawler can lead to bad play experiences but I think it's appropriately costed and at most should only receive a 10-30 points adjustment; I mean, why the hell are Morghasts 210 and Stalkers 200?

I don't know the fix and I won't pretend that I do, but I can say that your other best options are just spending those points on more Mortek or Harvesters (to keep Mortek alive), etc. and while that's a different playstyle, I've found that more people hate my 'unkillable' Mortek Guard than the Crawler thanks to it being shutdown by backfield\fast-movers charging into it. All in all, I don't think they need the nerfhammer as bad as most people are making out right now, but I do acknowledge your points. Also.... yeah there's always a potential (or definite) problem of them making certain models better for more $ but who knows. At the end of the day they want to sell models and that's what they'll do. Slaanesh is a fine example of something being overly tuned and I would agree updates could potentially be done more than 2ish times per year. AoS is rapidly closing the gap in popularity with 40k, so at some point they may take these things more seriously...

...then again all I ever hear about from 40k is how horrifically unbalanced it is so, maybe not 😅

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11 hours ago, Gwendar said:

then again all I ever hear about from 40k is how horrifically unbalanced it is so, maybe not 😅

Lol whenever my buddies try to sell me on it im just like.......so you can kill the opponent with like 4 models before they even have a turn with ranged units that target the whole board? Sounds absolutely terrible lol. 

 

11 hours ago, Gwendar said:

But you need to understand that the Ossiarchs in general can do nearly everything by themselves and don't require tons of support from Heroes and the like. All in all, yeah the Crawler can lead to bad play experiences but I think it's appropriately costed and at most should only receive a 10-30 points adjustment; I mean, why the hell are Morghasts 210 and Stalkers 200?

the fact ossiarch can do it all without support from heroes is already a bit silly, though i dont think too crazy. It seems liek GW wanted to color outside the lines of regular mechanics and rules with the OBR and its led to some crazy stuff. Like them getting 5+ "command points" a turn, or just outright being immune to battleshock. Im not sure what points increase it would need, but it def needs to go up by 20+ imo.  My opinion is based on no actual data on how they perform though so take it with a huge grain of salt lol. Stalkers are pretty deadly, i can see why they cost that much. I mean a buffed unit of 6 has like 3 attacks at -4/3  ( just the leads with falchions) and then the regular attacks which are more reliable damage but i dont have em in front of me. And thats only 1 buff im pretty sure, the -1 rend +1 dmg is an insane ability they get to use on themselves every turn.  I havent seen morghasts in action yet. 

 

11 hours ago, Gwendar said:

I don't know the fix and I won't pretend that I do

Im right there with ya, but tbh its not our job to fix the game, its GW's. Because it honestly seems like half the books/armies they put out didnt get playtested beyond like 2 games and they just said "good enough" which leads to broken combos or spammed units. 

Edited by Ser_namron

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@Ser_namron OBR is a wholly different style of army when you look at the rest of Death and that's what they're going for. They feel elite and coordinated rather than held together by some Necromancer or ****** on a Dragon-Bat and personally I'm glad to see that the unit leaders act more like actual Officers; it's a nice concept. Keep in mind they cannot use any command points, so things that many take for granted (re-roll charges, auto-run 6, etc) are off limits. There have been a few times where I've been 4" away and get snake eyes and I can't re-roll that. The balance they have with their unique RDP points and CA's is fine in my opinion. I've found in my games that I really like to have 8-9+ RDP and if I don't I can really feel it as they perform far poorer without RDP. If they could only get 1-3 a turn that would be absolutely abysmal unless you allowed their abilities to carry over both players turns.

Also, I would say fixing the game is a 50/50 effort at least. It's obvious many things were not at all\barely playtested for many armies (Slaanesh) and I don't expect them or the playtesters to have everything figured out... so yeah, more updates per year.

Just to round it back out towards Skaven, I think you can see the same with WLV. The 'rat trap' is still something people absolutely cannot stand and I can understand why, though I think the range nerf killed it from being an auto-include as you need a Grey Seer w/ Skitterleap to get it in T1 like you could previously. I'm fine with the change, as it was just as bad a play experience for people to experience, just like the Crawler can be.

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2 hours ago, Gwendar said:

Just to round it back out towards Skaven, I think you can see the same with WLV. The 'rat trap' is still something people absolutely cannot stand and I can understand why, though I think the range nerf killed it from being an auto-include as you need a Grey Seer w/ Skitterleap to get it in T1 like you could previously. I'm fine with the change, as it was just as bad a play experience for people to experience, just like the Crawler can be.

Ya i think the range nerf without adjusting its points made it way worse. but i still try and find room for it in every list because it can be pretty clutch. At the same time it can completely whiff or fail to even get off pretty frequently, so that 100 points is a pretty big hit or miss investment. But ya, if its being abused like that it needed to get changed. 

 

2 hours ago, Gwendar said:

Also, I would say fixing the game is a 50/50 effort at least. It's obvious many things were not at all\barely playtested for many armies (Slaanesh) and I don't expect them or the playtesters to have everything figured out... so yeah, more updates per year.

more updates per year for sure, they need to move beyond printed tomes. have the tomes be a collector item, but have the main form be digital so they can adjust it when needed. 

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On 2/15/2019 at 7:20 PM, Gwendar said:

As requested. Took about (excluding dry time for the initial Nuln wash) maybe 10 minutes per Ogor? One obviously took around 15-20 due to filling in his back which, luckily, is easy to do with an overloaded brush of super-thin paint as it just flows right in. My brush didn't have the sharpest point so that added to the time as well. Oh, and I purposefully drybrushed a bit hard of the moot green to get a glow\osl effect.

 Anyway, glad you all like the theme! Planning to re-prime or strip all of my Skaven to match the scheme once I finish up another project.

20190215_141035.jpg.9ccf60e12ea199933ff9ec3ff07e845c.jpg
20190215_141100.jpg.9e8db0a159ddf7e7ca75ec88868489c0.jpg

😍😍😍 absolutely love this theme. 

 

If you dont mind what process and paints did you use I'd live to turn my skaven shooting army into this. 

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5 hours ago, Pewpew600 said:

😍😍😍 absolutely love this theme. 

 

If you dont mind what process and paints did you use I'd live to turn my skaven shooting army into this. 

I appreciate it!

General:
Primed Mechanicus Grey
Wash all-over with Nuln Oil
Drybrush Dawnstone
Drybrush Administratum Grey

Green:
Warpstone Glow
Drybrushed Moot Green (or airbrushed if you want)
*The green in the cuts\scars is just thinned Moot Green so it flows into those recesses better

Pink:
Literally just Carroburg Crimson. It shows best when you dryrbrush a little heavier the Administratum Grey on those areas 

Red:
Mephiston or any other bright red

Bronze:
Warplock Bronze
Wash with Nuln Oil 

Edited by Gwendar

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Has anyone got any experience with the Clawlord on Brood Horror from ForgeWorld?

 

What with FW seemingly cutting back stuff and this being the only model I'm really interested in I wondered if any one else had experience modelling/painting/playing with it?

 

Would be my first experience with a large resin kit,not sure if that makes a difference.

Edited by mojojojo101

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After a year or so of stream-lining my games, I've condensed Skaven rules into 7 pages of reference sheets. Very helpful for an opponent to look over if they wish. I highly recommend printing out double-sided to keep scraps of paper to a minimum. Frankly, you'll mostly use the spells and allegience ability pages for direct reference in-game and so you may want those sections on the same paper front and back.  Also great if any of you know someone trying to get into skaven and isn't sure about getting the book yet. Enjoy. 

Teachings of the Horned Rat.pdf

Edited by Riff_Raff_Rascal
bad grammer
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Had my first taste of Plague Monks this week. I proxied in 40 clanrats in a friendly game just to see what they were like before deciding whether to buy some. I’ve avoided using them before largely because of the massive number of dice rolls/pots and not wanting to be “that guy”

i was playing against night haunt, which helped somewhat since I could ignore the 6 toHit (night haunt are immune to rend) and I managed to get my unit in a tight squeeze where I couldn’t get the whole unit into combat, but I did take out a Mournghul in one round of combat (luckily I caused 2MW when he killed 8 of my monks). I used a unit of 20 clanrats as shield to take the mournghul’s charge before retreating them and charging into some chainrasps. Ultimately the chainrasps were then able to take out my monks thanks to his double turn and me having no battleshock immunity nearby.

on the whole I think I was happy with their performance and can see the potential. Maybe not an auto-include for me because I like to keep my friends 😂 but one to add to the shopping list 😁

Edited by Cosmicsheep

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2 hours ago, Cosmicsheep said:

on the whole I think I was happy with their performance and can see the potential. Maybe not an auto-include for me because I like to keep my friends 😂 but one to add to the shopping list 😁

I've played a few games and know they tend to wipe units, but dice-rolling time combined with needing to create 4 separate pools of saves typically kills them for me. Honestly, if Stormfvermin came down I would likely run them (aesthetically better and easier to roll for) if I wanted a melee hammer...

...though nowadays I typically go more shooting\magic heavy.

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3 hours ago, Cosmicsheep said:

Had my first taste of Plague Monks this week. I proxied in 40 clanrats in a friendly game just to see what they were like before deciding whether to buy some. I’ve avoided using them before largely because of the massive number of dice rolls/pots and not wanting to be “that guy”

i was playing against night haunt, which helped somewhat since I could ignore the 6 toHit (night haunt are immune to rend) and I managed to get my unit in a tight squeeze where I couldn’t get the whole unit into combat, but I did take out a Mournghul in one round of combat (luckily I caused 2MW when he killed 8 of my monks). I used a unit of 20 clanrats as shield to take the mournghul’s charge before retreating them and charging into some chainrasps. Ultimately the chainrasps were then able to take out my monks thanks to his double turn and me having no battleshock immunity nearby.

on the whole I think I was happy with their performance and can see the potential. Maybe not an auto-include for me because I like to keep my friends 😂 but one to add to the shopping list 😁

I argued in  this blog post that you can easily decide not to use Bale-chimes and still retain one of the most cost-efficient units of our roster. In most scenarios you lose ~8% damage against 4+ but only have to separate the 2-damage rolls. Particularly in my lists that are based on horde/magic and I run two units with Foetid Blades, I can't imagine going back to four piles. I love how they thematically fit my idea of a sea of fanatical rats surrounding bells.

We'll see how or if GW tries to handle the matter in the Winter FAQ, but particularly given recent releases of elite-infantry, there is no reason Stormvermin should remain at 450 points. With the notable exception of Death Frenzy there is nothing in the Skaven army that vastly increases their power level and would make it essential they are overcosted.

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Question - Just to be clear -for the Claw-Horde Battalion - Which requires 1 Clawlord 

We cannot use the Skaven Clawlord on Brood Horror (keywords include Skaven Clawlord on Brood Horror AND Clawlord)   In the Battalion to substitute for the 100 pt Clawlord, right?

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Looking at adding some clanrats to the new Battleforce (Skaven corrupting war-swarm) are there any auto includes after this if I dont want to go further down the plague route?

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4 hours ago, Coyote said:

Question - Just to be clear -for the Claw-Horde Battalion - Which requires 1 Clawlord 

We cannot use the Skaven Clawlord on Brood Horror (keywords include Skaven Clawlord on Brood Horror AND Clawlord)   In the Battalion to substitute for the 100 pt Clawlord, right?

He has the CLAWLORD keyword, so yes, you can include him in the batallion.

2 hours ago, j0lt said:

Looking at adding some clanrats to the new Battleforce (Skaven corrupting war-swarm) are there any auto includes after this if I dont want to go further down the plague route?

One or two full units of Plague Monks are the only real common denominator among competitive builds aside from Clanrats and battleshock-immunity options (Screaming Bell, Warpseer). Everything else depends on which direction you want to move into.

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Forgive the probably obvious question but can I use Skratchnik's Warpcoven from the carrion empire box in matchplay and if so can I use it with a mixed skaventide list rather than Skryre list? I suspect the answer to both is no but worth a go. 

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2 minutes ago, Laststand said:

Forgive the probably obvious question but can I use Skratchnik's Warpcoven from the carrion empire box in matchplay and if so can I use it with a mixed skaventide list rather than Skryre list? I suspect the answer to both is no but worth a go. 

Sadly not, since Gw has chosen to remove it’s pointcost and existence with the last ghb.

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9 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Sadly not, since Gw has chosen to remove it’s pointcost and existence with the last ghb.

Thats a shame. Ah well. On to plan B. 

Edited by Laststand
Typo

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On 12/8/2019 at 5:49 AM, Coyote said:

Question - Just to be clear -for the Claw-Horde Battalion - Which requires 1 Clawlord 

We cannot use the Skaven Clawlord on Brood Horror (keywords include Skaven Clawlord on Brood Horror AND Clawlord)   In the Battalion to substitute for the 100 pt Clawlord, right?

The battalion requires a Clawlord, not a CLAWLORD. The difference being that it requires the unit named 'Clawlord' and not a unit with the keyword CLAWLORD. It's not in capitals and bold, so it's referring to the unit rather than the keyword.

So no, you cannot use the Skaven Clawlord on Brood Horror in Claw-Horde.

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On Sunday I attended a local tournament, the third of three (though I missed the second). I used the same list as last time (Warpseer, Arch Warlock, Bombardier, Clawlord, 2x40, 1x20 Clanrats, Warp Lightning Cannon, 6 Stormfiends, warp lightning vortex, suffocating gravetide because I had an extra 20 points left over) because I couldn't be bothered to get anything else ready.

Drew one, won one, lost one, so... fairly average, and I didn't learn much new that I didn't already know. Stormfiends buffed with MMMWP!, Vigourdust and a spark will melt literally anything. The Warpseer is amazing for keeping those big blobs of Clanrats in the fight with his command ability, and for generating more command points. The warp lightning vortex is brilliant for gradually wearing down enemies if you can get it out in spite of its range. 

Game 1 was against Nurgle, and though almost all my Clanrats died, well, that's what they're there to do. I chewed through more than 80 wounds of Blightkings and killed the Glottkin, all by turn 3. Wasn't able to claim his objective and so it was technically a draw, but I felt like I'd won all the same. 

Game 2 was against Mawtribes, and it went my way. His Thundertusks and Mournfangs trampled most of my sacrificial Clanrats into paste, while I melted them with lightning and bullets and gas. It was horrible seeing the amount of damage they put out though. If I had been a little less lucky, I think I would have lost.

Game 3 was against Ironjawz, and I got to see what it looked like when I'm not lucky. This was the worst game of the bunch, and not just because I lost- I don't mind losing. This was almost the most uninteractive game I have ever played in my life. He gave me first turn, my gunline sort of shuffled around awkwardly and then he got a double turn. By the start of his second turn the game was basically decided. With their ability to move or fight twice, and the amount of mortal wounds and damage they dish out, his two Mawcrushas just completely destroyed me. I had tried to deploy carefully to stop his Arachnarok from attacking my rear, but even screening everything quite cautiously with Clanrats, by the end of the second turn I had lost: 40 Clanrats, my Warlock Bombardier, my Arch Warlock, my Warpseer and a Stormfiend. Everything else followed. The only redeeming feature was the Stormfiends, who, even unbuffed, took out his general Mawcrusha and the Arachnarok, and almost killed Gordrakk. Nevertheless, though after defeats I try to think of what I could have done better to avoid it, this time it was really just the fact that I got double turned, and all it has done is make me loathe this feature of the game even more. Even when I get it, it doesn't feel good making the opponent sit there and eat my damage output for two turns in a row. 

Anyway, ultimately I had a good time with good people and had fun. Now to prepare for a Meeting Engagement event in January, which means I might be able to actually field an all-painted army!

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16 hours ago, bitchparty said:

The battalion requires a Clawlord, not a CLAWLORD. The difference being that it requires the unit named 'Clawlord' and not a unit with the keyword CLAWLORD. It's not in capitals and bold, so it's referring to the unit rather than the keyword.

So no, you cannot use the Skaven Clawlord on Brood Horror in Claw-Horde.

There are two arguments to be made here. First, the Warpcog Convocation does provide options as it requires a 'Warlock Engineer or Warlock Bombardier'. Therefore, if GW wanted to give the option to also provide a Clawlord on Brood Horror (CLoB), they would have specifically given the option.

The counterargument lies in the fact that for the abilities the keyword is used consistently, with the exception of the Fleshmeld Menagerie. There the Master Moulder is referenced not as a keyword, so it is required specifically as a unit. Would the Claw-Horde require a Clawlord and not allow a CLoB it would not use the keyword.

From this systematic interpretation i believe the case to be ambiguous, but in favor of sticking with the Organisation-box, and therefore not allowing the CLoB.

 

A teleological approach would lead us to the question as to why it should be forbidden. The goal is clearly to have a battalion with a CL that can use the gnash-gnaw command ability, which the CLoB can use. Even if we stick with the strict principle that only the units (not keywords) in the organisation tab are to be used, there is a case to be made of an implicit addition of the CLoB to it.

EDIT: To further add to this: the Monstrum Arcanum calls the unit 'Skaven Clawlord' (title) 'on Brood Horror' (sub-header). To quote the core rules page 15: ' If an entry is the title of a unit, any unit with that title can be used (you can ignore sub-headers under the title unless they are included in the entry for the unit).' 

The fact that Forge World calls this a Skaven Clawlord instead of a Clawlord is part of their rather unique and seldomly adapted naming convention and only makes sense in a multi-faction book like this. I don't believe that this can be held against anybody using a CLoB as a Clawlord.

Edited by Ineffectual Clawlord
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Played a Christmas 3,000pt game today v khorne. Practically my whole collection on the table and despite the fact I don't have any verminlords and my plague monks are still in a box I managed to chew chew chew through most of his army including taking down 4 bloodthirsters (including Skarbrand). 

List/review up in a day or two when my brain is less fuzzy or you can watch it soon on the Log Cabin Gaming youtube channel. 

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