AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion

[Kimbo]

On 11/25/2019 at 2:09 PM, Ineffectual Clawlord said:

@Kimbo Viable for "normal competitive"? Sure. Grand tournament competitive? You probably would want something less skewed. A pure shooting list has classic counters like Idoneth, so you would always gamble on not facing them. Given that you ask here I believe you are among the 99% of players who just want a list that performs well and works with their playstyle. 😉

Contrary to gronnelg I believe that it's entirely viable.

A list with 12 Jezzails obviously has them as their primary win condition. On average, with MMMWP (which you should use in this case) and Spark you can expect 6 MW and 13 W against 4+. They advantage over 9 Jezzails lies in reliability since you can shoot-kill a Keeper or something comparable with 95% accuracy, whereas with 9 it's a toss up. They also provide a solid answer against other shooting armies since you can outrange or with Gnawholes outposition them.

I perceive cannons as an insurance against 3+ ethereals (Mawcrusher, Vampire Lord, Frostlord) and as a support sniper. With 12 Jezzails you want to remove hammers, not waste shots on supporters as damage drops off drastically and you will inevitably lose damage when splitting shots.

The Deceiver is a good tech option against potential counters like Mortek Crawlers and generally as a really good tech option against shooting. Personally I would build it with Ghyrstrike to make his output more reliable and pair it with Gravetide (my preference) or Pendulum.

Mortal Realm: Ghyran
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (220)
- General
- Trait: Master of Magic
- Lore of Ruin: Death Frenzy
Verminlord Deceiver (300)
- Artefact: Ghyrstrike
Warlock Bombardier (100)
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Plague Monks (280)
- Foetid Blades
12 x Warplock Jezzails (560)
Suffocating Gravetide (20)

This would be the list I would take keeping the core idea intact, but of course you can reduce the Clanrats back to 20s and take other options. An Archwarlock to get more aoe MW, a Doomwheel, Ratling Guns etc.

The major difference to e.g. Shootcast, who have a different commitment to a single unit, is the extra 100 bodies on the field which make lists like this so oppressive on objectives.

 

11 hours ago, Obeisance said:

Are people actually running Deceiver vs gunline meta? My local area hasn't shifted that way yet.

well, a Skaven player (with deciever) went 4-1 (9th place) in the biggest tournament in Sweden the past weekend (Almost 100 players) , AND they had alot of range armies during the event so he sure can be used in "Grand tournament" events and might be a good option for the range meta that is arising. 

Still I need to play test and see what works, as always it depends on the meta and the armies you face ofc! 

@Ineffectual Clawlord

Thanks for the comments on my original list interesting regarding the 12 jezzels support...i would like it to be good! 

Will test your list and mine! both seems good and fun

Edited November 26, 2019 by Kimbo

[Obeisance]

Was that the recent KLGT?

How did the Deceiver go? What was it for? What did you do with it? What weapon got Ghyrrstrike?

Feel free to tell me about your games.

Edited November 26, 2019 by Obeisance

[Cosmicsheep]

Slightly off topic (maybe) but I’m thinking about my next tattoo and tempted to get something skaven-y. Has anyone else got the great horned rat, or similar, inked on themselves? Or anyone got any ideas for a skaven themed chest piece?

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

@gronnelg I personally love 12 jezzails, just as two units though. As is, a pack of six statistically can take down 5 wound heroes, which should be their job anyways, and so now you can threaten those units at two different angles, in addition to sending them through gnawholes. Defensively speaking, if your opponent gets the jump on you and trys to battleshock them away, you've only lost one unit. Its not like you get a horde bonus anyways. And yes, MMMWP is more efficient on large units, but even still, a pack of six can still do great work with it.

@Chase Big fan, of the big cheese. With your unit preference, I'd go full on skryre with him as general. I've got an assortment of thoughts here: 1) One of the few synergies he has with other skaven warscrolls is free battleshock immunity AND a free run of 6 with his command ability, making acolytes scary as heck (if you don't have 30 acolytes just ask you friends if you can proxy them with clanrats). 2) Skyre almost always suffers from a bodies problem not being able to use clanrats as battleline but that's where Thanquol's warpfire gauntlets have a perfectly defined roll (anti-horde). 3) Run as many stormfiends as your heart desires, because thematically it looks awesome with lil' Boneripper.

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

On ‎11‎/‎25‎/‎2019 at 6:25 PM, Obeisance said:

Are people actually running Deceiver vs gunline meta? My local area hasn't shifted that way yet.

The Deceiver is in an odd position right now. He's a hero that is extremely difficult to remove at range and even in melee (scurry away and teleporting out of combat). However, I don't think he's an answer to shooting for the very fact that he doesn't hit very hard. Even if he's left alone, sneaking into their lines for melee will feel a bit underwhelming. I recommend considering him as a very robust utility piece for his spell and objective grabbing. Until clan eshin gets more love, I wouldn't consider him to be effective against any type of meta frankly.

[Kimbo]

On 11/25/2019 at 2:09 PM, Ineffectual Clawlord said:

@Kimbo Viable for "normal competitive"? Sure. Grand tournament competitive? You probably would want something less skewed. A pure shooting list has classic counters like Idoneth, so you would always gamble on not facing them. Given that you ask here I believe you are among the 99% of players who just want a list that performs well and works with their playstyle. 😉

Contrary to gronnelg I believe that it's entirely viable.

A list with 12 Jezzails obviously has them as their primary win condition. On average, with MMMWP (which you should use in this case) and Spark you can expect 6 MW and 13 W against 4+. They advantage over 9 Jezzails lies in reliability since you can shoot-kill a Keeper or something comparable with 95% accuracy, whereas with 9 it's a toss up. They also provide a solid answer against other shooting armies since you can outrange or with Gnawholes outposition them.

I perceive cannons as an insurance against 3+ ethereals (Mawcrusher, Vampire Lord, Frostlord) and as a support sniper. With 12 Jezzails you want to remove hammers, not waste shots on supporters as damage drops off drastically and you will inevitably lose damage when splitting shots.

The Deceiver is a good tech option against potential counters like Mortek Crawlers and generally as a really good tech option against shooting. Personally I would build it with Ghyrstrike to make his output more reliable and pair it with Gravetide (my preference) or Pendulum.

Mortal Realm: Ghyran
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (220)
- General
- Trait: Master of Magic
- Lore of Ruin: Death Frenzy
Verminlord Deceiver (300)
- Artefact: Ghyrstrike
Warlock Bombardier (100)
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Plague Monks (280)
- Foetid Blades
12 x Warplock Jezzails (560)
Suffocating Gravetide (20)

This would be the list I would take keeping the core idea intact, but of course you can reduce the Clanrats back to 20s and take other options. An Archwarlock to get more aoe MW, a Doomwheel, Ratling Guns etc.

The major difference to e.g. Shootcast, who have a different commitment to a single unit, is the extra 100 bodies on the field which make lists like this so oppressive on objectives.

If you had the chance to remove the Deciever, would you say a warpseer would fit better? Or show else would you spend the 300p 👌

[Coyote]

Warpseer, better value than Deceiver.  Don’t get me wrong I love the Deceiver, but Warpseer is so much more utility than the Deceiver.

[Gwendar]

7 hours ago, Cosmicsheep said:

Slightly off topic (maybe) but I’m thinking about my next tattoo and tempted to get something skaven-y. Has anyone else got the great horned rat, or similar, inked on themselves? Or anyone got any ideas for a skaven themed chest piece?

Have a booking scheduled with a local player\artist in a few months.. I play him fairly often and he knows my undying love of Skaven needs to be immortalized. Likely will be getting a black version of my profile picture with the symbol filled in green. Girlfriend is actually coming along as well to get the Hagg Narr symbol on her outer thigh (which is an interesting choice for her 1st and I'm curious how she handles it...)



@Kimbo I would agree by the way that the Warpseer is the far more economical and overall better choice. I think people see more value from him if he had more attacks, but as it stands he doesn't hit particularly hard and the better combo is to just bring him + a Corrupter with SoJ if you want a real assassin.. and that's a bit sad really.

Here's to the continued hope that we get a DoK style release with Clan Eshin.

[Obeisance]

I don't know, the Deciever looks really interesting.

He's fast and can teleport around the board and grab objectives. He can bounce to 6" away. 6+ with a reroll is really good odds. He's -2 to hit by shooting.

He's got a meh gun, standard tail and his dagger is 6x3+/2+ for -3 D3. Taking Ghrrstryke as suggested is 6x2+/2+ -3/D3, plus 6x3+/3+ -1 1.

You could totally see him appearing and assassinating stuff.

 

 

[Ineffectual Clawlord]

@Kimbo As things stand at the moment Skaven are in the fortunate position to actually have a lot of different lists that are all "viable" in the sense that they can take and have taken major tournaments. There are some archetypes to be sure, but even within them winning lists differ by a couple of hundred points. It comes down to testing and finding something that you enjoy playing! 😊

On 11/25/2019 at 2:34 PM, Chase said:

What are your options on Thanquol? He definitely isn't the "competitive" choice,but he's beautiful and I want to field him. What do you guys think is the best possible list that includes Thanquol + 6-9 Fiends? I face nighthaunt, LoN, FEC, khorne, idk, ko regularly. We're somewhere between beerhammer and competitive

Thanquol on Boneripper (400)
- Lore of Ruin: Warpgale
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (220)
- Lore of Ruin: Death Frenzy
Arch-Warlock (160)
- General
- Trait: Verminous Valour
- Artefact: Vigordust Injector
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Plague Monks (280)
- Foetid Blades
6 x Stormfiends (520)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)

 

This is what I would run. Thanquol really needs an impactful endless spell since his own is just so lackluster. Warpfire are the safer option since you don't need him in melee versus a lot of the first-strike-monsters like Gristlegore/Keepers etc. The drawback being that he will be suboptimal in a number of matchups, although shooting a unit of 5 with four Warpfires still averages 10 MW. If you can compensate in the hero-killing department then that is certainly an option. Braziers are a good choice as long as you keep him away from Eels and the aforementioned monsters and you'll be golden.

 

[Ineffectual Clawlord]

Concerning the whole Deceiver vs Warpseer debate, why is this even a question? Both fulfill entirely different roles in an army. You pick a Warpseer if you want a tanky centerpiece that gives battleshock immunity. That's what he does, and he does it well, mind you .

The Deceiver is one of the really mobile pieces we have. What you do with him depends on what you need doing. I only mentioned counter-shooting because that's what I've been thinking about lately with regards to players I regularly face who make me adapt my lists that are mainly designed to compete with aggressive melee armies (who dominate tournaments for the most part).

The apparent use would of course be to target heroes, him being an assassin and all that. However I believe we have so many options to snipe or use mortal wounds against support heroes. Rather he can do a reliable 5d3 damage against everything, unlike the SoJ Corruptor who can essentially fight nothing but heroes and monsters. To take a current example: Bonereapers defend objectives with 10 Guard, who for most melee attackers prove a daunting task. 3 rend on the Deceiver turns them into a 6+ re-rollable with additional MW from Gravetide or Pendulum.

A 6" charge re-rollable equals a 92% chance to succeed, compared to the usual 50-50 with a 9" re-rollable.

To make my final point: Deceivers can be invaluable on the scenarios with wonkier mechanics, the orb moving away from you every round for example.

He is by no means an auto-include in most lists, but he is by god no off-meta pick or overpriced.

[Gwendar]

I mean, not saying he's a bad pick or anything but if someone wants something that will benefit the army as a whole then, yeah, you aren't taking a Deceiver over a Warpseer. Of course it has it's uses, but the competitive lists have no need or room for it when you're also trying to bring 80+ Clanrats, 40 Monks, Jezzails, Stormfiends, all the buff pieces, etc.

In that setup I would much rather bring a Warpseer, but I don't even do that anymore aside from my Magic list. If I want a teleport that bad I'll just bring a Grey Seer. Which yeah, not as resilient\fighty as a Deceiver, it's also half the points and can teleport something else (like the Warpseer who's fighty enough and even more resilient).

[Coyote]

Any looked at lists with 3+ units of. 40 giant rats?  

What list would you build?

I have a project in mind, and am considering alternative Giant Rats.

[Skreech Verminking]

2 hours ago, Coyote said:

Any looked at lists with 3+ units of. 40 giant rats?  

What list would you build?

I have a project in mind, and am considering alternative Giant Rats.

Well I would actually love to take some giant rats into my List.

There is just one small problem, the aren’t battleline in a Skaventide mixed army, and I am not really keen on trading them with my stormvermins, or fiends.

although, I was considering taking a huge unit of rat swarms, to protect my frontline from incoming mind razored Witch aelves.

Even if they don’t have any save, that 20+ leadership, will surely keep the tides of rats on the battlefield, especially when the unit attacking them only deals a damage per blow, and those swarms even regenerate, per turn.

[Coyote]

I was thinking of making a Moulder list... What are some builds for Moulder lists?

Probably a Grey Seer on Bell or 2, then 160 Giants, 2 Moulders and 2 Abominations and 2 units of Packmasters?

[Congratz]

I’ve been taking a pause from skaven and just got back! I’m very curious with whats “best” 

Plague Monks or Stormfiends?

i got 9 stormfiends waiting to be build and i got 80 monks and i just don’t know what to use!

Monks are cheaper and you can easily fit 9 Jezzails in as well!

Have anyone tried combining them in a list?

what are your thought?

[Obeisance]

Tbh if I could find secondhand Stormfiends on the cheap, I'd run them. Such expense. Many dollars.

I put 6 metal Jezzails in acetone this morning.

My next big tournament is in Jan. So it's like.. paint a whole Bonereaper army, or 1-2 things for Skaven? 

I've been in painting mode for like... ages. Finished 2000pts+ of Skaven in like two months. Then stripped and repainted my Combined Army (~30 models) in 6 weeks. 

I don't really need a third painting clock in a row.

So Skaven it is. Just trying to work out which way I go.

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

I need help on the order of operations for saves on the tanky build of the Arch-warlock. It hasn't been that big of an issue since the only time I've actually had him die is when a stardrake ate him outright (I was being cheeky and my opponent was lucky). Generally, he's got the look out sir and is on top of a balewind (-1 to hit, +1 to save). Im unclear on the minute details on how many times you are assigning a wound or mortal wound to this guy, if at all. After re-reading most of these abilities, I think I've cracked when they work individually, just not in tandem. This is what I run:

Arch-Warlock (160)
- General
- Command Trait : Verminous Valour

Before you allocate a wound or Mortal Wound to this General, you can roll a D6. Subtract 1 from the roll if this General is a Monster or War Machine. On a 4+, instead of allocating the wound or Mortal Wound to this General, you can allocate it to a friendly SKAVENTIDE unit within 3" of this General

- Artefact : Ignax's Scales 

Roll a dice each time you allocate a mortal wound to the bearer. On a 4+ the wound is negated

- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism : Warp Lightning Shield

If successfully cast, until your next Hero Phase, the first 3 wounds allocated to the caster in each phase are negated. If a fourth wound is allocated to the caster in the same phase, then the caster suffers D6 Mortal Wounds and this spell is unbound (the first 3 wounds allocated in that phase are still negated

[Cosmicsheep]

If it’s a mortal wound I would go Ignax->Verminous->Shield

For normal wounds, Normal save->Verminous->Shield

[KingOfSuede]

With those wordings, I'm pretty sure the Verminous Valour has to be done before either one no matter what. Verminous says "Before you assign a wound," the other two look at when you assign it. Either way, you can roll for Verminous Valour, and then choose how many you want to assign to the unit, then take 4+, then shield.

[Gwendar]

7 hours ago, KingOfSuede said:

With those wordings, I'm pretty sure the Verminous Valour has to be done before either one no matter what. Verminous says "Before you assign a wound," the other two look at when you assign it. Either way, you can roll for Verminous Valour, and then choose how many you want to assign to the unit, then take 4+, then shield.

I don't think so in this case. Many FNP saves are worded as such and the order in which you carry them out doesn't matter if I recall. With the way you allocate wounds, you can allocate all to hit the Ignax\Shield first if you wanted. Any that go through are still allocated and therefore subject to Verminous Valour.. it doesn't necessarily have to be before the other saves.

Or so that's how I think most people have always done it.. I seldom (never) run it so take that with a grain of salt.😉

[KingOfSuede]

Just seems weird. We have "within" and "wholly within" effects that are different. We have "reroll fails" and "reroll" effects that are different. Why would "before you allocate a wound" and "when you allocate a wound" be the same? Especially when they're in an updated battletome together.

[KingOfSuede]

Had great success playing Thanquol & Moulder last night against Nighthaunt! 

List was...

Thanquol, Master Moulder, Master Moulder

40 Giant Rats, 40 Giant Rats, 4 Rat Ogors, 2 Rat Ogors

HPA, HPA

Packmasters

Fleshmeld Managerie

The only units that finished the game off the board were the Packmasters. Rolled both my 4+s to get a unit of Giant Rats and the bigger Ogor unit back. HPAs and Thanquol were super mobile thanks to my opponent casting cogs. Thanquol and an HPA were about to double team 20 Cairn Wraiths in the center if the board and then split their next move/charge onto the objectives in my opponent deployment. HPA one shot his lone hero on that one, Thanquol took on 20 Chainrasps. Killed 8 before charging, took 2 wounds, killed 8 more, causing the rest to flee. Thanquol himself took out two with his boop staff 🤗

Was a good day

Edited November 30, 2019 by KingOfSuede

[Lord Krungharr]

Ooh that's a cool army!  Never seen Moulder or Thanquol in action.   Moulder seems much more interesting and fun than Clan Eshin turned out to be  because of unit variety.

[Lord Krungharr]

On 11/27/2019 at 4:54 PM, Riff_Raff_Rascal said:

The Deceiver is in an odd position right now. He's a hero that is extremely difficult to remove at range and even in melee (scurry away and teleporting out of combat). However, I don't think he's an answer to shooting for the very fact that he doesn't hit very hard. Even if he's left alone, sneaking into their lines for melee will feel a bit underwhelming. I recommend considering him as a very robust utility piece for his spell and objective grabbing. Until clan eshin gets more love, I wouldn't consider him to be effective against any type of meta frankly.

I wonder if there's a relic that lets the Deceiver's dagger do more damage?  D3 isn't great.  Ghyrstrike isn't bad, more hits n wounds means more damage.  Then one could use Sword of Judgement on the Corruptor, and have the Deceiver zip the Corruptor into a hero or monster for judgement.  

Launching the Deceiver with extra ward save of some sort into a shooty enemy would be good, as then that unit would have to target him.  And a Grey Seer could do the same to some other thing.