Kirjava13 Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 They really ought to have been reclassified as a unit in groups of 3 so we could use them as a cavalry substitute. Without that, they're too dinky. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwendar Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, Riff_Raff_Rascal said: they're useless Well... I mean....😉 For 60 points, sure... but to me I would only use 1 as a tax for that Coven and no more. Aside from the random movement, weak save and 3 wounds the worst thing to me is just how easily they can kill themselves compared to other weapon teams like Warpfire Throwers\Ratlings thanks to it happening on a double or if you roll a combined 7 and neither is hard to do on 2d6. Assuming they even make it to combat in the first place. Edited November 17, 2019 by Gwendar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffectual Clawlord Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 Ah, Doom-Flayers. Inexorable proof that not everything is fine in Skavenland. Some warscrolls have a goal but fail to achieve it, like rat swarms. They at the very least know what they want to be when they grow up. A problem fixable with points. Doom-Flayers just don't have a goal. Folk legends and wild-haired prophets speak of times when they roamed across the lands and mutilated man-things. But... for 60 points, on the charge and overloaded (1/3 chance to blow itself up) it's 7 attacks do 2.7 mean damage vs 4+. Even with MMMWP you only reach 4. 4. That's the same damage as 60 points of Clanrats with swords, hardly destroyers of worlds. At the same time you pay 4 times as much per wound on the model. Investing MMMWP on a Ratling Gun (plus a spark to be fair) you get 12.3 mean damage. Three times as much. From range. Sure, you might say. They don't hit hard, can't take a punch and increase my drops since I can't even stack them. But they are fast! They are warpstone-crazed bikers! Well, 2d6 movement .... Maybe cutting down the cost to 30 and giving the option to take them in a unit of 3 so you could buff would fix them, but even then I remain skeptical. This unit needs a rework. I'd love them to have an auto-destruct overload mechanism where they increase their speed to 3d6 but they explode for d3 MW within 3" a the end of combat. This would at the very least make them fun. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riff_Raff_Rascal Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 1 minute ago, Ineffectual Clawlord said: they explode for d3 MW within 3" a the end of combat. This would at the very least make them fun. Yeah. that would be fun. I want them to be little cannonballs that die instantly. I can't warpstone them for extra damage. Gahh! So frustrating. Putting them in a unit would be great too, a couple of you mentioned that. I had the idea that they get to attack at the top of combat if they make a charge move, so even if they still never hit hard, each one can guarantee that they'll get to attack at least once. Frankly I should just have fun playing with Doomwheels. They do everything I want them to do since the warscroll update. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riff_Raff_Rascal Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 Anyone in Skavenblight may answer this one: Has anyone had any success with the Splinter and/or Splinter Screech spells? I recken' we hardly need these spells and personally they've been useless against my friends Death and/or horde armies. I'm trying to decide if I ever have an extra wizard for lore spells if I should lean into redundancy or try these unique ones. I suppose this is also indirectly asking if anyone has had the hair on their ear to field the Warpgnaw Verminlord. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gronnelg Posted November 19, 2019 Share Posted November 19, 2019 @Ineffectual ClawlordThanks for that great reply! Lot of good ideas there. I oftentimes play against a SCE player, with Gavriel Sureheart, and a bunch of evocators. Gavriel and the evocators being up in the skies. He will then dangle that threat over my head until he sees at weakness in my positioning, then drop down and kill a lot of important things. While waiting for Gavriel he has several units of judicators sniping off minor units, and softening larger ones. I guess what I should be doing is taking some small early lead pointswise, and then from there screening is the name of the game basically? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingOfSuede Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 @Riff_Raff_Rascal I think people generally look at this spell wrong, or opponents don't want it to work the way it actually does. When someone first reads that spell, they think it's a Hero killer for 5 wound models. Or that it's a cheap spell to pick off a 3 or 4 wound model out of a more elite unit. I'm not going to say the spell is good. I haven't used it to good effect either. HOWEVER... The warscroll says you choose the MODEL (not the unit, as opponents tend to think) and if your die roll beats their Wounds characteristic, that model is slain. This means: That conga line of Clanrats? They're split 15/24 and not in cohesion. Those Chainghasts that are bearing down on you? Out of cohesion. Evocators on big boy 32mms? Out of cohesion. It's just a deployment check. Obviously people won't purposely move their units so they're out of cohesion and have to kill half of them. Obviously they're going to conga line and pull models in combat that won't leave the unit out of cohesion. They don't expect to have their middle model removed and leave the unit out of cohesion. The biggest negative of that spell is it's 6" range (12" for Warpgnaw). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riff_Raff_Rascal Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 @KingOfSuede Well put. Like you said, its more important to keep you opponent honest with their plays. I had not considered its value against larger bases, only wounds (even though they are sometimes related). 32mm is definitely more than an inch, and so there's a lot more chance for error on your opponents part. Even now, I'm thinking of oval base units (like skin wolves) that people like to string out for screens or area denial; its even more dangerous. As for the range, I would be unafraid to build a list around it, just to see it work. Perhaps a skitterleap, warp-grinder list to threaten the enemy territory with big/scary units so they spread out more, then just teleport in the units to cast the spells instead? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingOfSuede Posted November 20, 2019 Share Posted November 20, 2019 @Riff_Raff_Rascal the problem is, Warp Grinder is 9" away, Dreaded Skitterleap is 6" away. By virtue of these setups, you aren't in range to Splinter anything (except for Warpgnaw, but who's running that?). You have to move the model with it into range, wait till your next hero phase, then use it. The problem is if your Grey Seer on foot is within 6" of an enemy, it's probably dead. And even then, you might not have an advantageous model to pick off within those 6 inches. And even then you might fail the cast. AND EVEN THEN, EVEN FOR A 1 WOUND MODEL, you might fail the roll. It's just extremely situational. If it was on a warscroll, then sure. But on average, casting Death Frenzy on a Doom-Flayer would be land more damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterJoshua Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 I've been working on the idea of creating what I'd call an 'iconic' Skaven list. By that I mean the most Skaveny Skaven force possible. Cramming in as many of the most recognisable units/machines and as many different clan representations as possible. So far this is what I've come up with: Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (220)Warlock Bombardier (100)Deathmaster (100)20 x Clanrats (120)20 x Clanrats (120)20 x Clanrats (120)6 x Stormfiends (520)40 x Plague Monks (280)Hell Pit Abomination (240)Doomwheel (160)Total: 1980 / 2000 I think this has most of the things I'm looking for. It has what I consider the most recognisable unit from each of the major clans. Bell, Doomwheel, Monks, Deathmaster, HPA, Clanrats. It would've been nice to have some Stormvermin in there, but don't see how it's possible without sacrificing other areas. I also think it's a decently competitive bunch of things. Am I missing anything that people would consider 'must have' for this type of thematic army? Can anyone come up with a more iconic force? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skreech Verminking Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 (edited) 58 minutes ago, MisterJoshua said: (1)I've been working on the idea of creating what I'd call an 'iconic' Skaven list. By that I mean the most Skaveny Skaven force possible. Cramming in as many of the most recognisable units/machines and as many different clan representations as possible. So far this is what I've come up with: (3) Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (220)Warlock Bombardier (100)Deathmaster (100)20 x Clanrats (120)20 x Clanrats (120)20 x Clanrats (120)6 x Stormfiends (520)40 x Plague Monks (280)Hell Pit Abomination (240)Doomwheel (160)Total: 1980 / 2000 (2)I think this has most of the things I'm looking for. It has what I consider the most recognisable unit from each of the major clans. Bell, Doomwheel, Monks, Deathmaster, HPA, Clanrats. It would've been nice to have some Stormvermin in there, but don't see how it's possible without sacrificing other areas. I also think it's a decently competitive bunch of things. Am I missing anything that people would consider 'must have' for this type of thematic army? Can anyone come up with a more iconic force? Well the most skaveny of all skaveny things would probably a mixture of clanrats (100-200 models) to the rest consisiti g of stormfiends, weapon teams, warlocks and Grey seers leading them. but then again it always differs which clan from the old or new world your playing as. For Example Clan Krizzor is well known for the use of Warbeasts like ratogres and hell pits in battle, while sending a huge amount of clanrats and slaves into battle to demolish the enemy ranks. On the other hand clan Ektrik has been commonly known to support their lines of clanrats and skyre acolytes with huge formations of warplightning cannons, and doom rockets. Basically you should be asking yourself, what it really means to you to field the skaven in battle. for me, somebody who still mourns the death of the great clan Mors (Which is one of many reasons, I haven't left the paint scheme and even am playing My skaven as the clan mors) Ususally am using a hige amount of clanrats stormvermins (I always pack at least a unit of 40into my list, even when they were hugely over costed (talking about the time where 30 of them costed like 500p) and now), at least 1clawlord (who usually is even to dumb to die) and anything else that fits into my list. Edited November 21, 2019 by Skreech Verminking 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michu Posted November 21, 2019 Share Posted November 21, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Skreech Verminking said: for me, somebody who still mourns the death of the great clan Mors Clan Morskrit has basically the same colours, symbols and even their lore says that they are descendants of old clan of warriors... And finally, it's named MORSkrit Edited November 21, 2019 by michu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skreech Verminking Posted November 22, 2019 Share Posted November 22, 2019 (edited) 16 hours ago, michu said: Clan Morskrit has basically the same colours, symbols and even their lore says that they are descendants of old clan of warriors... And finally, it's named MORSkrit Traitor-things like-like morskrit, shall Perish-die Yes-yes changed their name, have chosen to run-rule their own clans, just like clan rictus. squiek-thought they could be better then Clan Mors, thought they could get richer without us-us. Traitors, like those things, are-are not welcomed amidst the ranks of clan mors. Edited November 22, 2019 by Skreech Verminking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimbo Posted November 24, 2019 Share Posted November 24, 2019 Anyone tried using 12x Jezzels succesfully? Thinking about playing this next: LeadersGrey Seer on Screaming Bell Verminlord Deceiver Warlock Bombardier Battleline20 x Clanrats 20 x Clanrats 20 x Clanrats 40 x Plague Monks ( 12x Jezzels) Warp Lightning Cannon comments, feedback, hugs...all appritiated Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gronnelg Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 @KimboI think 12 jezzails is a pretty big investment for a unit that is primarly meant to threaten/kill lesser heroes, or assist on bigger ones. They're also pretty frail, so making them 12 makes them an even juicier target. Also they have pretty much the same role as the WLC. So I would make it 6-9 jezzails. If you also remove the WLC, you can put in a plague furnace instead, to buff your plague monks. That leaves enough point to bump one of the clanrat units up to 40. I would also change the Verminlord, as I don't feel the deciever does much for this list. The warpseer is generally the preferred all-round verminlord. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gronnelg Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 Does anyone have any experience with night runners? They only have a 6+ save, and they have terrible damage output. The pre-battle movement could be nice though. Either as an extra layer of screen, or early game objective deniers (I say deniers because you could typically grab midfield with clanrats anyway). And 80 points for 10 is a huge investment either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimbo Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 (edited) 19 minutes ago, gronnelg said: @KimboI think 12 jezzails is a pretty big investment for a unit that is primarly meant to threaten/kill lesser heroes, or assist on bigger ones. They're also pretty frail, so making them 12 makes them an even juicier target. Also they have pretty much the same role as the WLC. So I would make it 6-9 jezzails. If you also remove the WLC, you can put in a plague furnace instead, to buff your plague monks. That leaves enough point to bump one of the clanrat units up to 40. I would also change the Verminlord, as I don't feel the deciever does much for this list. The warpseer is generally the preferred all-round verminlord. Ye. I totally agree regarding the 12 jezzels. I like the deciever, the ability to pop up 6" away and kill an important target or finish of what the jezzels could not finish. Or even work as a great diversion target when poped up behind the enemy! Why (would love to learn) why you prefer the warpseer and dont like the Deciever? Thanks for the feedback! Edited November 25, 2019 by Kimbo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gronnelg Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 @KimboThe warpseer is more resilient, has a good command ability, and has a good damage spell with an impressive range (d6 MW, and reduses enemy movement). He's also masterclan, which means he get command points back on a 5+, and he generates extra CP on a 3+ at the start of the hero phase. Being master clan also gives him access to command trait master of magic and the artefact suspecious stone giving him an extra 5+ feel no pain (for a total of 4+ 4+ 5+ 5+, making him VERY durable). Dread skitterleap is the only thing the deciever has going for him (well, the -2 to hit makes him harder to snipe though...). And you can still put skitterleap on the screaming bell, to send the warpseer behind enemy lines, if you want to do that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimbo Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 5 minutes ago, gronnelg said: @KimboThe warpseer is more resilient, has a good command ability, and has a good damage spell with an impressive range (d6 MW, and reduses enemy movement). He's also masterclan, which means he get command points back on a 5+, and he generates extra CP on a 3+ at the start of the hero phase. Being master clan also gives him access to command trait master of magic and the artefact suspecious stone giving him an extra 5+ feel no pain (for a total of 4+ 4+ 5+ 5+, making him VERY durable). Dread skitterleap is the only thing the deciever has going for him (well, the -2 to hit makes him harder to snipe though...). And you can still put skitterleap on the screaming bell, to send the warpseer behind enemy lines, if you want to do that Well, they have different roles for the army. A spell with 8+ cast and a worse dmg profile in meele makes him less attractive for my purpose maybe with the horrifying -3 rend, not sure yet! He is indead resiliant, not arguing about that..but it seems like he will kill less..I like the BS immune however...tricky one. Play testing has to be done! Thanks again mate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gronnelg Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 Well, deciever will do more damage, sure. But against a 4+ save (that becomes no save with -3 rend) you're still looking at an expected damage output in the range of 4-6. Which is nothing compared to the plague monks. Verminlords aren't primarly damage dealers. They can kill lesser heroes though (5 wounds heroes), and the deciever will do a better jobb at that for sure. As for dreaded warpgale, with master of magic you can get it down to 7+. And then if you're close to a gnawhole you can get it down to 6+. And with that juicy 26" range you can stand at your home gnawhole and still hit stuff. But the deciever is a cool unit for sure. You could even build a list around it. Dreaded skitterleap, and then skitterleap. You could get two verminlord up in the opponents face. Then add in a unit moving through the gnawholes, and spice it even further with some gutter runners. Now you're suddenly looking at a skaven alpha strike list Bonus points for putting an assasin in the gutter runners Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ineffectual Clawlord Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 @Kimbo Viable for "normal competitive"? Sure. Grand tournament competitive? You probably would want something less skewed. A pure shooting list has classic counters like Idoneth, so you would always gamble on not facing them. Given that you ask here I believe you are among the 99% of players who just want a list that performs well and works with their playstyle. 😉 Contrary to gronnelg I believe that it's entirely viable. A list with 12 Jezzails obviously has them as their primary win condition. On average, with MMMWP (which you should use in this case) and Spark you can expect 6 MW and 13 W against 4+. They advantage over 9 Jezzails lies in reliability since you can shoot-kill a Keeper or something comparable with 95% accuracy, whereas with 9 it's a toss up. They also provide a solid answer against other shooting armies since you can outrange or with Gnawholes outposition them. I perceive cannons as an insurance against 3+ ethereals (Mawcrusher, Vampire Lord, Frostlord) and as a support sniper. With 12 Jezzails you want to remove hammers, not waste shots on supporters as damage drops off drastically and you will inevitably lose damage when splitting shots. The Deceiver is a good tech option against potential counters like Mortek Crawlers and generally as a really good tech option against shooting. Personally I would build it with Ghyrstrike to make his output more reliable and pair it with Gravetide (my preference) or Pendulum. Mortal Realm: GhyranGrey Seer on Screaming Bell (220)- General- Trait: Master of Magic - Lore of Ruin: Death FrenzyVerminlord Deceiver (300)- Artefact: Ghyrstrike Warlock Bombardier (100)- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!40 x Clanrats (200)- Rusty Blade40 x Clanrats (200)- Rusty Blade20 x Clanrats (120)- Rusty Blade40 x Plague Monks (280)- Foetid Blades12 x Warplock Jezzails (560)Suffocating Gravetide (20) This would be the list I would take keeping the core idea intact, but of course you can reduce the Clanrats back to 20s and take other options. An Archwarlock to get more aoe MW, a Doomwheel, Ratling Guns etc. The major difference to e.g. Shootcast, who have a different commitment to a single unit, is the extra 100 bodies on the field which make lists like this so oppressive on objectives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chase Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 What are your options on Thanquol? He definitely isn't the "competitive" choice,but he's beautiful and I want to field him. What do you guys think is the best possible list that includes Thanquol + 6-9 Fiends? I face nighthaunt, LoN, FEC, khorne, idk, ko regularly. We're somewhere between beerhammer and competitive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmicsheep Posted November 25, 2019 Share Posted November 25, 2019 3 hours ago, Chase said: What are your options on Thanquol? He definitely isn't the "competitive" choice,but he's beautiful and I want to field him. What do you guys think is the best possible list that includes Thanquol + 6-9 Fiends? I face nighthaunt, LoN, FEC, khorne, idk, ko regularly. We're somewhere between beerhammer and competitive I like Thanquol and generally try to field him as often as I can. I have him equipped with 4 braziers though to make him a hero killer rather than put him up against hordes. He can be hit and miss and will either do loads of damage (I once did 18 wounds) or nothing at all. His +2 cast is very helpful for something like warpgale. I usually include 6 fiends and 6 jezzails just to keep my options open. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Obeisance Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 Are people actually running Deceiver vs gunline meta? My local area hasn't shifted that way yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skreech Verminking Posted November 26, 2019 Share Posted November 26, 2019 2 hours ago, Obeisance said: Are people actually running Deceiver vs gunline meta? My local area hasn't shifted that way yet. No, I’ve never really used him. against the gun line meta, I think our little friends the clanrats will do just fine, when taken in enough quantity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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