AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion

[Skreech Verminking]

18 minutes ago, TheWilddog said:

Been slogging through some glow rats. First batch done.

Nicely done!

 

[Num]

What if I were to get hold of 140 clanrats in addition to the 100 I already have?

I remember we talked a lot about the horde strategy a while ago, but I didn't hear about reports besides one from @Skreech Verminking

 do you think fielding 240 clanrats is still a promising strategy? Along with a bell, and a verminlord warpseer I suppose. Why not a warp grinder, a bridge or a chronomantic cogs besides.

Or would I lose too much by not using a hammer like stormfiends or plague monks?

Cheers

[PiotrW]

40 minutes ago, Num said:

What if I were to get hold of 140 clanrats in addition to the 100 I already have?

I remember we talked a lot about the horde strategy a while ago, but I didn't hear about reports besides one from @Skreech Verminking

 do you think fielding 240 clanrats is still a promising strategy? Along with a bell, and a verminlord warpseer I suppose. Why not a warp grinder, a bridge or a chronomantic cogs besides.

Or would I lose too much by not using a hammer like stormfiends or plague monks?

Cheers

Plague Monks are a hammer? I didn't know that...  I imagined they'd be relatively weak? *noob takes notes*

Anyway, my opinion is that fielding 240 Clanrats might be a bit boring, because you wouldn't have enough points to field all those cool Screaming Bells, Warp Lightnining Cannons, Doomwheels etc. Plus, transport might become an issue?

But my perspective might be weird, because I'm not that a competitive player...

[Gwendar]

1 hour ago, PiotrW said:

Plague Monks are a hammer? I didn't know that...  I imagined they'd be relatively weak? *noob takes notes*

Anyway, my opinion is that fielding 240 Clanrats might be a bit boring, because you wouldn't have enough points to field all those cool Screaming Bells, Warp Lightnining Cannons, Doomwheels etc. Plus, transport might become an issue?

But my perspective might be weird, because I'm not that a competitive player...

My sweet summer child, no. There's a reason they're probably our most hated unit (next to Fiends with everyone starting to use them again) and almost every decent tournament list takes 40-80 Monks minimum. But hey, now you know.. the "drawback" to them is that you will end up with 4 different save piles which can add up a good chunk of time but there are ways to speed it up, such as just rolling saves as you get them which also helps you to not forget which pile is what.

If you search, there's some pages in this thread where people have calculated average damage of things like Monks, Fiends, Stormvermin, etc with and without buffs.

Monks are nuts, all in all.

2 hours ago, Num said:

What if I were to get hold of 140 clanrats in addition to the 100 I already have?

I remember we talked a lot about the horde strategy a while ago, but I didn't hear about reports besides one from @Skreech Verminking

 do you think fielding 240 clanrats is still a promising strategy? Along with a bell, and a verminlord warpseer I suppose. Why not a warp grinder, a bridge or a chronomantic cogs besides.

Or would I lose too much by not using a hammer like stormfiends or plague monks?

Cheers

I mean... why not, right? Speaking competitively, you certainly could clog up the board but, you also aren't really removing anything. It's just a battle of attrition and you have to be sure that you can win that battle; better against some armies and battleplans than others but you have no way of regenerating or summoning in more. All it takes is 1-2 good units to kill off a couple of Clanrat units per turn with BS (assuming you were out of range\didn't have a CP) and they have virtually no threat of retaliation.

I dunno, I'm skeptical but I'd be lying if I didn't want to see you do it.

[PiotrW]

4 hours ago, Gwendar said:

My sweet summer child, no. There's a reason they're probably our most hated unit (next to Fiends with everyone starting to use them again) and almost every decent tournament list takes 40-80 Monks minimum. But hey, now you know.. the "drawback" to them is that you will end up with 4 different save piles which can add up a good chunk of time but there are ways to speed it up, such as just rolling saves as you get them which also helps you to not forget which pile is what.

If you search, there's some pages in this thread where people have calculated average damage of things like Monks, Fiends, Stormvermin, etc with and without buffs.

Monks are nuts, all in all.

Good to know I'll be getting then anyway, because I'll be getting at least one of the Start Collecting! boxes. I just didn't figure they'd be that important...

Even though I must admit that with Clanrats and Stormvermin I'll already have 100 rat warriors to assemble. Not quite looking forward to adding another 40 rats to that pile 😵

4 hours ago, Gwendar said:

I mean... why not, right? Speaking competitively, you certainly could clog up the board but, you also aren't really removing anything. It's just a battle of attrition and you have to be sure that you can win that battle; better against some armies and battleplans than others but you have no way of regenerating or summoning in more. All it takes is 1-2 good units to kill off a couple of Clanrat units per turn with BS (assuming you were out of range\didn't have a CP) and they have virtually no threat of retaliation.

I dunno, I'm skeptical but I'd be lying if I didn't want to see you do it.

If anything, with that approach Skaventide would become a literal Skaven tide

[Skreech Verminking]

9 hours ago, Num said:

What if I were to get hold of 140 clanrats in addition to the 100 I already have?

I remember we talked a lot about the horde strategy a while ago, but I didn't hear about reports besides one from @Skreech Verminking

 do you think fielding 240 clanrats is still a promising strategy? Along with a bell, and a verminlord warpseer I suppose. Why not a warp grinder, a bridge or a chronomantic cogs besides.

Or would I lose too much by not using a hammer like stormfiends or plague monks?

Cheers

Well I mean there’s potential in such a list.

You won’t kill much but what ever your opponents destroys in his phases wont really matter to you anyways.

[Skreech Verminking]

And for that reason I present tp you guys the vermintide al la Skreech Verminking:

Verminlord Warpseer (300)
- General
- Command Trait : Master of Magic - Artefact : Suspicious Stone
Grey Seer (140) Warpgale
Grey Seer (140) skitterleap
UNITS
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Plague Monks (280)
- Foetid Blades
ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN
Warp Lightning Vortex (100) Soulsnare Shackles (40)

total:2000

 

 

 

Edited August 20, 2019 by Skreech Verminking

[Ineffectual Clawlord]

Foetid Blades:

• Unbuffed               .75               charge   1.13                 
• 30+                       1.19             charge   1.78
• Vigordust + 30+   1.3               charge   1.94
• Filth-filth               1.13            charge   1.69
• Rabid-rabid           1.13            charge   1.5
• Filth + 30+            1.58            charge   2.37
• Rabid + 30+          1.78            charge   2.37
• Everything            3.46

Blade and Staff:

• Unbuffed                 .67               charge   1.08                
• 30+                       1.22             charge   2
• Vigordust + 30+   1.53             charge   2.5
• Filth-filth               1.08            charge   1.69
• Rabid-rabid           1.08            charge   1.5
• Filth + 30+            1.69            charge   2.78
• Rabid + 30+          2                  charge   2.78
• Everything            4.84

Lists the successful attacks per model attacking. Not included are the special rules for rolls of 6 (rend, damage) and Bringer-of-the-Word. To calculate the average wounds just multiply the result with the armor coefficient (e.g. for a 6+ save multiply successful hits with 5/6 since on average 1 out of 6 attacks will be saved against) and you'll be in the right ballpark.

To give an idea about the damage, assume 40 monks in 4 rows of 10.

20 Blades attacks:

• 30+                 23.8            charge   35.6
• Everything      69.2

20 Blades + 10 extra staff attacks:

• 30+               27.7            charge 46.7
• Everything   115.6

 

The advantage of double blades (that doesn't show up here since I didn't list confidence intervals [i.e. usually a range where 95 % of results lie] because I'm not a madman) is that you re-roll hit rolls, so the deviation is lower. Meaning that you reduce the risk of a bad roll. If you combine it with Filth-Filth you achieve very stable damage as far as AoS works.

What also shows is that super-buffing plague monks is in the vast majority of cases an exercise in overkill. To destroy a Ghoul King on Terrorgheist with ethereal amulet for example you need 28 successful attacks. It is tempting to imagine outright killing a unit of 60 Stabbaz, but for the vast majority of targets in the game you will waste damage.

Getting them in combat with their 30 man bonus intact is at the heart of the issue. As long as you have battleshock immunity, the best way to buff plague monks is to bring more plague monks.

[Ineffectual Clawlord]

To give an idea of the comparison to clan Verminus:

Stormvermin:

• Unbuffed                      .67
• 30+                                1.11
• Gnash-gnaw + 30+       1.67

Clanrats:                                  Swords                           Spears

• Unbuffed                      .25                                   .17
• 30+                                .44                                   .33
• Gnash-gnaw + 30+      .89                                   .67

 

Assuming a unit of 40 Stormvermin in 4 rows of 10:

30 attacks = 33.3 successful attacks, 50.1 with Gnash-gnaw.

For Clanrats:

20 swords = 8.8 successful attacks, 17.8 with Gnash-gnaw.

30 spears = 9.9 successful attacks, 20.1 with Gnash-gnaw.

 

And yes, I've done these calculations for most of the units in the book. 😉

Due to work I'm stranded far off civilization and won't be able to play for over a year. Which does give me time to start painting a Skaven army and play around with the battletome.

[Drib]

What about Stormvermin buffed with Gnash-Gnaw and Tyrants of Battle from the Warbringer?

[michu]

@Skreech Verminking I think I have a name for that list - Sanity Shredder. After painting so many Clanrats...

 

EDIT: Of course we skaven player are actually safe. We can't lost something we didn't have to start with...  

Edited August 20, 2019 by michu

[Laststand]

2 hours ago, Drib said:

What about Stormvermin buffed with Gnash-Gnaw and Tyrants of Battle from the Warbringer?

I dont think theres a doubt they are brutal on the attack but from what people have said (I havnt used them personally) they die too quickly for their points cost. They seem to only be really worth taking in units of 40 for450pts but you start losing buffs quickly. 

Its a different role to clan rats where you only need to care that there are enough to claim the objective. 

[Skreech Verminking]

2 hours ago, Drib said:

What about Stormvermin buffed with Gnash-Gnaw and Tyrants of Battle from the Warbringer?

Fantastic if you get in range, sadly you really will want to use the Verminlord as a deathbringer uimslef using him in combat and as a certain assasin for specific heroes you, feel the need to be killed.

it is basically what I have been using him for the past few battles and will be using for the next.

if I am getting lucky I will achieve my main goal by buffing the stormvermins to the max. Although they already kill almost anything in there way, without needing too many buffs.

Edited August 20, 2019 by Skreech Verminking

[Ineffectual Clawlord]

Agreeing with everybody, Stormvermin have already great damage output and don't need additional buffs. Not that an additional attack hurts them though...

They also have the advantage of retreat + charge, so they can't be easily tarpitted and are not reliant upon their charge bonus to do insane damage. They are just reliable servants of the Horned One.

But, they are 450 pt for a full unit, so you want to get the maximum out of them. This means that they profit heavily from some defensive support. Not the Skaven forte (life is cheap and all that...).

- to hit from Wither or Geminids is often underestimated:

If you assume an attack profile of 4+/4+, this means that 1/4 of the attacks are successful. Wither turns this into 5+/4+, so 1/6 of attacks are successful. The chance is reduced from 25 to 16.7 % or in other words, 1/3 less damage.

For an attack profile of 3+/3+ this means a reduction from 44.4 to 33.3 % or 1/4 less damage.

Compare this to Mystic Shield: you re-roll 1/6 of your save rolls, so the chance to negate increased from 50 to 58.3 %. This assumes no rend. With rend 2 the chance to negate increases from 16.7 to 19.4 %. (Or i could have just said that it always increases by 1/6th of the original chance to save)

Some other ideas to increase their survivability:

• Prismatic Palisade to block visibility against shooting lists;
• Malevolent Maelstrom is actually great against most armies but can help out prevent MW on your Stormvermin.
• Screening them with Clanrats.

 

[swarmofseals]

@Ineffectual Clawlord etc. -- just want to supplement your posts with a little context. I've done the math for most of the warscrolls in the game (at least those that currently see play) and Plague Monks are just an absolutely extreme outlier in terms of their offensive efficiency. 

Using my WDR formula (a measure of damage per point spent which normalizes rend values and allows different kinds of damage to be compared), 40 Plague Monks with Woe Staves, icons and chimes have a WDR of .241 with no other buffs active. So no prayers, no charging etc. Just their passive buffs from icon/chimes and unit size. 

Bestigors, attacking an Order unit with 10+ models and charging (so ALL of their buffs active) have a WDR of .209 -- and Bestigors are among the most offensively efficient units in the game. 

Witch Aelves with witchbrew have a WDR of .202 (and that does not count the cost of the Hag Queen providing the brew). Hagg Narr Witch Aelves on turn 3+have a WDR of .268, again not counting the cost of the Hag Queen.

So basically Plague Monks unbuffed (not even charging!) are right at the top of the heap even when comparing to other top-tier units even when those units are very heavily and situationally buffed. 

And right now Plague Monks aren't even that bad defensively. At baseline they have a defensive efficiency of .171. In Congregation of Filth they are .206. Bestigors are .2, and Witch Elves are .144 (at baseline. HN/Bloodshield: .18, HN+Bloodshield: .225, HN+Bloodshield+Fanatical Faith: .337). 

So yes, Plague Monks are incredibly good -- but I might hesitate before painting 100+ of them because they are inevitably going to get taken down until they have the same problem as Stormvermin (still good offense but a liability on defense).

And in case anyone wants, here is a dreadfully obvious Plague Monk list:

Spoiler

Verminlord Warbringer (general: Master of Magic, artefact: Suspicious Stone) - 280

Plague Priest on Plague Furnace - 200

Battalion: Congregation of Filth - 160

Plague Priest on Plague Furnace (artefact: Gryph-feather Charm) - 200

3x40 Plague Monks - 840

4x10 Plague Monks - 320

Total: 2000

Optionally you can drop 10 Plague Monks for a CP, or you can drop 10 Plague Monks and the second priest for another block of 40. If you do so, it might be worth considering swapping the Suspicious Stone for the Snoutgrovel Robes.

Overall, it's a 2 or 3 drop list with ridiculous melee killing power, 2-3 very hard to kill heroes for the battleplans that need that, and very high model count. 

I suspect it will be quite boring to play, and you will likely need to use an app for dice rolling as otherwise you'll never finish a game XD

 

Edited August 20, 2019 by swarmofseals

[Aelford]

Hi there. Just building my list now to be as versatile as possible. Here it is- 

Leaders
Verminlord Warpseer (300)
- General
- Artefact: Suspicious Stone  
Skaven Clawlord on Brood Horror (180)
- Mighty Warlord Command Trait: Verminous Valour
Warlock Bombardier (100)
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Verminlord Warbringer (280)

Battleline
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Spear
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Spear
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade

Units
6 x Warplock Jezzails (280)
40 x Plague Monks (280)
- Woe-stave
- 1x Icon of Pestilence
- 1x Contagion Banner
- 1x Doom Gongs
- 1x Bale Chimes

Endless Spells / Terrain
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)

Total: 2000 / 2000
 

I’m just looking at any ways to improve it. I could drop the Arch-Warlock down to a Bombardier and take another endless spell? Maybe Pallisade? I’m also considering changing the Suspious Stone on the Warpseer to the Aetherquartz Brooch to get these clanrats in a frenzy! 

What are your thoughts? 

[Gwendar]

1 hour ago, Aelford said:

Hi there. Just building my list now to be as versatile as possible. Here it is- 

Spoiler

Leaders
Verminlord Warpseer (300)
- General
- Artefact: Suspicious Stone  
Skaven Clawlord on Brood Horror (180)
- Mighty Warlord Command Trait: Verminous Valour
Warlock Bombardier (100)
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Verminlord Warbringer (280)

Battleline
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Spear
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Spear
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade

Units
6 x Warplock Jezzails (280)
40 x Plague Monks (280)
- Woe-stave
- 1x Icon of Pestilence
- 1x Contagion Banner
- 1x Doom Gongs
- 1x Bale Chimes

Endless Spells / Terrain
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)

Total: 2000 / 2000

I’m just looking at any ways to improve it. I could drop the Arch-Warlock down to a Bombardier and take another endless spell? Maybe Pallisade? I’m also considering changing the Suspious Stone on the Warpseer to the Aetherquartz Brooch to get these clanrats in a frenzy! 

What are your thoughts? 

I suppose if you really want to buff Clanrats that badly to do damage, then yeah, you may want more CP as you can spam the Brood Horrors CA unlike the normal Clawlord. I don't know that the Jezzails are really going to benefit over the course of the game from MMMWP as it will slowly kill them; it's usually better on 15-20+ Acolytes, Fiends for 9 Jezzails. If it were me, I would drop the Geminids and just use a Grey Seer with Death Frenzy since you're already putting so much into melee power with the Warbringer and Clawlord. This way you can get a unit double-deathy-frenzied or do it to 2 different ones.

[danimo]

3 hours ago, Aelford said:

Hi there. Just building my list now to be as versatile as possible. Here it is- 

*snip*

I’m just looking at any ways to improve it. I could drop the Arch-Warlock down to a Bombardier and take another endless spell? Maybe Pallisade? I’m also considering changing the Suspious Stone on the Warpseer to the Aetherquartz Brooch to get these clanrats in a frenzy! 

What are your thoughts? 

Finding room for an extra command point would be good.  Suspicious stone on the Warpseer is the right call.

I took a similarly versatile list to WarGamesCon in Austin TX last weekend and nabbed 6th in battle points (out of 89).

Skaven Clawlord on Brood Horror (180)
- Mighty Warlord Command Trait: Verminous Valour
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (220)
- General
- Trait: Master of Magic 
- Artefact: Suspicious Stone 
- Lore of Ruin: Skitterleap
Arch-Warlock (160)
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!

40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Spear
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Spear

6 x Warplock Jezzails (280)
Hell Pit Abomination (240)
Warp Lightning Cannon (180)

Warp Lightning Vortex (100)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1

The only verminlord I have is the Warpgnaw so I'm not playing any. I think I still slightly like the Bell over the warpseer at the moment anyway. The extra CP is huge, it lets the Clawlord go off with 40 clanrats and keep them around long enough for them to soak up plenty of wounds.

I played against Khorne, Skaven (80 plague monks, Corruptor, 2 bells, 1 plague furnace, 60 clanrats, 2 ratling guns), Deepkin eels, Legion of Blood (Court of Nulahmia), Skaven (40 plaguemonks, 6 buffed stormfiends, 6 jezzails, warpseer etc).  Lost to the Legion of Blood on Duality of Death but only barely.

Edited August 21, 2019 by danimo

[Ineffectual Clawlord]

@swarmofseals Interesting, I worked on a similar spreadsheet for points efficiency. Did you find yours helpful? Personally I felt that every ratio calculated came with a large number of caveats. Given the sheer complexity of game situations, different matchups etc. that I think there are very few bad units per se (looking at you Doom Flayers!) and that the point efficiency didn't further my evaluation.

As an example the Arch Warlock: the 3+ save itself shows up in my survivability-efficiency but it is even more valuable when he has Overseer of Destruction/ Vigordust/ only MMMWP-caster. Additionally his re-roll to cast and dispell. So in the end I had a number, but also a vast amount of extra notes for the units and aspects that I couldn't properly put in numbers.

---------

To add something that might be of value to some, here are the chances to kill yourself with clan Skryre:

• WLC: ~ 12% on first turn (pretty much guaranteed on 2nd)
• Grey Seer/Thanquol: 9,72%
• Arch-Warlock spell:   if re-roll 17.6% to fail. D3D6 equals a 61.42 % to kill him outright.
•              with a +1 bonus to cast he has a 7.8 % chance to fail (in case anybody wants to go for an overloaded spell portal to start the game 😉)
• Warlocks:  if re-roll 2.8 % to fail, with a 1/3 chance to die. 0.7 % chance if +1 to cast.
•              Both also fail if unbound though.
• Doom Wheel:   16.7 %, with a 41.7% die immediately.
• Ratling Guns: 16.7 %
• Warpfire: 33.3%
• Flayers: 33.3% (doubles and 7 is just a fancy way of saying 1/3...)
• Bombardier/Spark/Stormcage etc. 1/6. Just for completion.

 

Edited August 21, 2019 by Ineffectual Clawlord

[Mikelomba]

Yoyo rata!

Im looking for some feedback, for my stormfiends list.

1 grey seer

1 plague furnace

1bomb ing

1 warpseer

3 x 20 clan rats

1 x 40 plague monks

1 x 6 stormfiends

 

1 vortex Shell

 

I realy like the stormfiends.. but i dont see them on competitive. The idea si to moremorewarp them and use a stone on +1 dmg... i think it should do dmg.

[Ineffectual Clawlord]

Spoiler

4 hours ago, Aelford said:

Hi there. Just building my list now to be as versatile as possible. Here it is- 

Leaders
Verminlord Warpseer (300)
- General
- Artefact: Suspicious Stone  
Skaven Clawlord on Brood Horror (180)
- Mighty Warlord Command Trait: Verminous Valour
Warlock Bombardier (100)
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Verminlord Warbringer (280)

Battleline
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Spear
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Spear
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade

Units
6 x Warplock Jezzails (280)
40 x Plague Monks (280)
- Woe-stave
- 1x Icon of Pestilence
- 1x Contagion Banner
- 1x Doom Gongs
- 1x Bale Chimes

Endless Spells / Terrain
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)

Total: 2000 / 2000
 

I’m just looking at any ways to improve it. I could drop the Arch-Warlock down to a Bombardier and take another endless spell? Maybe Pallisade? I’m also considering changing the Suspious Stone on the Warpseer to the Aetherquartz Brooch to get these clanrats in a frenzy! 

What are your thoughts? 

 

MMMWP has a 2/3 chance to kill a Jezzail. With bravery 4 and a point cost of 47 that is daunting. Giving them a spark when in range for a ~50% damage increase is definitely worthwhile though.

I would cut the Warbringer. His spell is great but a casting value of 7 means a 58 % chance to cast it. Since you can't park him next to a gnawhole or give any other casting bonuses it is too unreliable for my taste. Other than that his buff is not that great. You could use the the new command abilities if you find excess CP's, but they are pretty pitiful as well.

280 points would provide a Grey seer (140) with Death Frenzy and extra Jezzails (140) and you could change the spell on the Bombardier to Chain Warp Lightning or get rid of him altogether.

Getting rid of the Warbringer and either 20 Clanrats or the Brood Horrow upgrades would allow you to get in 15 Acolytes (who profit incredibly from MMMWP + Spark) for 180 as well as a Grey Seer (140) and some extra endless spells. Or 3 Ratlings with or without Overseer of Destruction.

Skaven just have so many great options!

Edited August 21, 2019 by Ineffectual Clawlord

[swarmofseals]

@Ineffectual Clawlord In general I agree with most of what you are saying. Mathhammer is one thing to consider, and it can often take a back seat to other concerns. To make a comparison to Magic: The Gathering, efficiency is a lot like the concept of "card advantage". In MTG, one major strategy is to just bury your opponent in card advantage, and outside of some fairly specific archetypes almost any successful deck will at least pay some consideration to it. Completely ignoring card advantage is a good way to make a crappy deck (unless you are playing one of those aforementioned specific archetypes). That said, if all you do is try to make your deck pile up card advantage without doing anything else, you aren't likely to be successful either. You have to be able to actually use those extra cards to stymie your opponent or further your own strategy.

The same is true in Warhammer. If you just take a pile of the most efficient units you probably won't have a very good list. It'll be fine for casual play but not well tuned for tournament competition. There may be a couple of exceptions, but I think this rule generally holds. That said, you also generally can't ignore efficiency either. Most tournament caliber lists lean on efficient warscrolls to do a lot of the heavy lifting, and when less efficient warscrolls are used they fill a particular purpose. 

In general, I've found calculating efficiencies to be extremely useful. They help compare both within and between armies, and having the actual numbers in front of you helps you evaluate exactly how much you are giving up or gaining when you take one unit over another.

That said, I think Skaven are one of the least important armies for this largely for two reasons. One is that the vast majority of the warscrolls in the book are efficient enough to be playable. It's hard to end up with a Skaven list that is too inefficient to be viable. The other is that a lot of Skaven's power comes from the allegiance package, and that applies across the whole army. So if you mostly just crunched the numbers for Skaven, I can see why you didn't find it to be earthshatteringly helpful!

 

[Ineffectual Clawlord]

@swarmofseals This is a more cohesive argument than I could have made!

I use my spreadsheets to compare units that have a similar capacity to solve a problem for me, e.g. how do I take out a key threat on T1? Then a comparison between Jezzails - WLC - Stormfiends is very enlightening. However there are aspects that can shift all this again (will line of sight be a problem? Point for the Fiends).

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Q: Thanquol’s Warpstone Addiction ability and the Grey Seer’s Warpstone Tokens ability say that the roll cannot be re-rolled or modified. Can you re-roll or modify the 2D6 roll once you have removed one of the three dice?A: No.

 

Who is the best caster for the Vortex? (casting value8)

Arch-Warlock: chance to succeed with re-roll:      65.98 %

                                + Gnawhole:                               82.64 %

Grey Seer:             Warpstone Token:                       68.06 %

                            

Thanquol:             base +2:                                        72.22 %

                              + Gnawhole:                                 83.33 %

                              Warpstone Addiction:                 68.06 %

Skreech Verminking: KoftA + Gnawhole:               72.22 %

 

How successful is the Skitterleap-Vortex-Gnawhole-combo?

Thanquol isn't involved due to weight constraints, Skreetch prefers to plot in the shadows outside of popularity.

Both GS as well as AW have the arcane bonus, AW uses a spark:        68.86 %

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What would it need to make Thanquol popular again?

Edited August 25, 2019 by Ineffectual Clawlord
Thanks to Gwendar and Paul Conti to pointing out that the Warpstone abilities can't be modified.

[swarmofseals]

Just started experimenting in preparation for getting started on this project. I generally don't use GW paints, but given that I am looking at 160 small rats I figure I have to give contrast a try, at least for things like robes and fur. I tried two colors: gore grunta fur and basilicanum grey over a straight white prime on one model and a quick three step zenithal (the old standby of Vallejo panzer grey, cold grey, dead white) on another.

I'm pretty satisfied with the gore grunta fur. It'll do as a starting point that I can build on later if I want to. I think I prefer the results from the zenithal better as it gives a bit of a smoother finish and a richer tone. I bet a very light  sepia wash before applying the contrast would improve it further.

The grey on the other hand looks terrible imo. It's way too washed out and provides such a weak effect. Any of you had any better luck with a grey contrast?

Edited August 22, 2019 by swarmofseals

[Gwendar]

4 hours ago, Ineffectual Clawlord said:

Both GS as well as AW have the arcane bonus, AW uses a spark:        68.86 %

GS eats some warpstone and uses Master of Magic:                              78.43 %

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What would it need to make Thanquol popular again?

You can't use a Seer\Thanquol Warpstone (3d6 roll) and get a modifier on top of the roll. There was a specific FAQ regarding this with Thanquol that was interpreted the same way with the Grey Seer.

As for Thanquol...  he wants to be casting spells, arguably the WLV, but with it's shortened range I wouldn't consider taking him for 400 to just do that. I take him with 50/50 Warpfire\Braziers so he can hold his own well, but still not worth the points when I can buy so many other things for that price. I've only had success out of him when I took him in my magic lists before the points changes simply because he was my go-to for WLV and he was great at holding the centerline of the field.

I would never consider him in a standard list however and I don't know how that could change unless he was given the ability to Skitterleap; this would make him a threat to Hordes\Elites\Heroes (meaning I would probably replace the Corruptor with him) and put him in range of WLV somewhere important.