AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion

[GeneralZero]

I think most of our units will go up in points.

Vermilords, especially the heavy magic ones will for sure will be way more expensive. Grey seer also.

Canon will be up to avoid a bit of spam. Too strong on shooting. Even thanquol, I'm suspecting him to be more expensive.

For skryre, the accolyte are a bit strong.

Monks, no comment: big nerf ahead (and it is normal as expected).

 

[KingOfSuede]

If WLV goes up to 120+ points, will there be a point to raise Grey Seers as well? I'm on board for the rest of your calls though.

[Skreech Verminking]

3 hours ago, KingOfSuede said:

Where's the freakouts for the new rules for faction terrain making Gnawholes unusable as written? Gnawholes in the Codex have to be set up wholly within 8" of the edge, new GHB says faction terrain must be set up 6" away from the edge and any other terrain or objective. If you can't meet the requirements, you can't place the terrain. 🤷🤷

Just jumping on the commotion train. I'm sure this'll be addressed in the July update alongside the point changes 😏

I Guess it’ll be faqed directly after the book drops, or so I at least hope.

3 minutes ago, KingOfSuede said:

If WLV goes up to 120+ points, will there be a point to raise Grey Seers as well? I'm on board for the rest of your calls though.

Guessing so, although might not be more then 20p with a bit of luck

[Gwendar]

4 hours ago, KingOfSuede said:

Where's the freakouts for the new rules for faction terrain making Gnawholes unusable as written?

While I agree it's odd, it should be common sense to assume that the Gnawholes will function\deploy differently.. why would they make something so new completely irrelevant in that regard? This isn't the same kind of thing as squatting Brettonia or TK.

I'll just copy\paste my ideas from FB:

One thing I noticed is that most\all of the battleplans have had player territories significantly reduced. I suspect that Gnawholes will be changed to be placed either:
1. Anywhere on the board
2. Any in the owners territory or NEUTRAL territory
3. 1 in the owners, opponents and NEUTRAL territories

I can't really see it working any other way unless it's changed to be deployed wholly within 12"ish instead of 8".

Of course the last statement there regarding 12"ish would make it difficult to deploy when you consider it's 4" or so width and the new rules for not placing something within 6" of other scenery AND more than 6" from an edge. Overall I find the terrain rule changes just... unnecessary. Especially the ones for placing 10 pieces of terrain not including faction terrain. I imagine they just want to sell more of their own terrain.

[Ikit_Claw]

On 6/12/2019 at 4:45 PM, cranect said:

Hello everyone. I have a friend who is just getting into the game and from what he wants to do skaven sounded like the best bet. 

He was specifically looking for "I want my turn to basically be volley of arrows, charge in to finish the unit off, retreat if I don't kill them, have one big guy to get anyone that break through"

I do realize nobody can retreat after fighting but otherwise what would you all reccomend for building towards a 2000 point list? 

The best I could come up with not knowing much about the skaven was 

Arch warlock

Warlock bombadier

Grey seer

3x10 stormvermin

6x Jezzails

Warp Lightning Cannon

Plague claw catapult

Hellpit abomination

Doomwheel

Shards of valagharr

Soulsnare shackles

Warp Lightning Vortex

The reasoning on the spells is since I will be the main opponent he will need to slow some of my armies down to get his shooting in.

I am looking for feedback on what may fit better for the playstyle he is looking for and has some decent competitiveness so that I can run some different stuff against it.

I should note I play Fyreslayers, Warherd, Beastclaw, Gloomspite focusing squigs and trolls, and am starting Bonesplitterz.

If you could also give some ideas for different game sizes such as 500, 1000, 1500 in addition to 2000 so that I can help him build it up it would be appreciated.

That’s all pretty good there, I might recommend a master molder though.

[frostfire]

WLV in 120 is still a must though?

[Kramer]

2 hours ago, frostfire said:

WLV in 120 is still a must though?

Yeah they should change the rules of that thing if they want to make it less of an auto include not just increase points.

[Kirjava13]

Tried to get my hobby mojo back with Contrast...

 

[michu]

@Kirjava13 I assume it worked, because those are really nice Clanrats. I'm actually afraid of using Contrast for them, because I'm already halfway through my horde and the difference between  the non-contrast and contrast ones could be too stark.

Edited June 16, 2019 by michu

[frostfire]

I keep hearing people complaining that Skaven is soooooo op and need to get nerfed.

I do see we do insanely huge damage in magic, shooting and melee but is it impossible for other to counter?

 I can see that we often lose on drop counts, so army with high mobility or deepstirke can just cancel our first turn damage by setting out of the range.

Let's say fyreslayers with 30  auric hearthguards deepstirking can shoot of a unit of 40 monks, and deepkins who have low drops and could fly over the screening clanrats, and Gloomspite Gitz do anti-horde magic, and Sylvaneth who just block the sight...... I could imagine various tough matches against these factions, while FEC just depends on the unkillable Terrorgheist killing things and win, who is really the one.

I am new to this army and I admit it is strong but not that strong which needs urgently nerfed.

[Gwendar]

@frostfire Some things may need to be changed around (particularly in points cost, like Monks) but overall we're in a good, A\S-Tier spot as far as I'm concerned. We place very well in tournaments, but are not sweeping them like DoK, FeC, LoN have the past year. I think after the FAQ things will change, as they always do.. but this is a slippery slope and if you don't tone down Skaven in some way while nerfing other armies at the same time, we will quickly rise to the top with FeC.

Mostly I hear people being salty about the WLV and attributing that as one of the sole reasons Skaven are strong and that we have no weaknesses, which I often find to be a hilarious statement. I've played Fyreslayers a lot with my FeC who can hold their own, but 10-30 Hearthguard showing up with buffed charges will delete almost anything we have and even a Dreaded Plague or Warpfire will have a tough time removing that many models since they're 2 wounds a piece with a 4+ FNP next to a Hero (which they always will be unless you snipe it, but you can't do that if they teleport them in front of your face on their turn). My answer to a lot of that is a buffed unit of 20-30 Acolytes which will also delete almost anything they have, cripple it or make it run from BS.

Now, am I saying Fyreslayers are OP? No, far from it.. but they excel in what they do, and Skaven are widely considered a jack-of-all-trades with an emphasis on magic and shooting. We are strong, but currently almost everyone is in some fashion as their has been a noticeable power creep in the past 6-9 months. I think Skaven take a lot more effort to play correctly and win than some other armies.. but with the amount of variety we have in builds they can also be made quite simple and "OP" if you're running tons of monks, WLC's\Jezzails, etc.

Edited June 16, 2019 by Gwendar

[KingOfSuede]

3 hours ago, michu said:

@Kirjava13 I assume it worked, because those are really nice Clanrats. I'm actually afraid of using Contrast for them, because I'm already halfway through my horde and the difference between  the non-contrast and contrast ones could be too stark.

The way I figured it was that Clanrats in fiction are probably amalgamations of volunteers from various clans. I'm taking 5 at a time, doing skin and fur, then different skin and fur on the next five, going through a unit, going back and doing armor/clothes a similar way.

There's trillions of Skaven, they've got to have some sort of variance between skin tones and fur colors.

I'm not one for having a uniform army look either 😂

[robbobobo]

In order to allay fears that Gnawholes are not usable with the new terrain rules, there has been a response from the Warhammer Age of Sigmar FB page.

[GeneralZero]

At least, they are aware of the problem 😜 . Now, how they'll address it....who knows?

[Gwendar]

I didn't expect this to be the end of an expensive kit that's only months old and no one else should've jumped to that conclusion. I've heard that the terrain rules (not the new scenery rules table, those are fine) as a whole are getting FAQ'd as they were not playtested and, well, the outcry has been mostly against the rules on almost all accounts.

Now, whether or not this means (or if it's even true) the placements ranges are toned down or the amount of scenery that has to be placed is toned down or a mixture of both is uncertain. Personally, my local meta will not be using the 10 pieces of terrain rules and I've seen a lot of TO's be against it as it actively promotes players ****** each other with terrain placement which can lead to some BM.. this is hard to get around when most\all battleplans got a player territory reduction.

Overall I'm not a fan of the new terrain rules and it really just seemed like a change for the sake of changing something but it went way overboard in my opinion. The previous "1-2 pieces of terrain per 2x2\quadrant" was just fine and I didn't see that needing changed. I would also prefer the ranges to be brought down to 3" from any other terrain or objectives... the whole "nothing within 6" of a table edge" is really puzzling to me.

Edited June 17, 2019 by Gwendar

[Unter]

On 6/16/2019 at 3:50 PM, frostfire said:

I keep hearing people complaining that Skaven is soooooo op and need to get nerfed.

I do see we do insanely huge damage in magic, shooting and melee but is it impossible for other to counter?

 I can see that we often lose on drop counts, so army with high mobility or deepstirke can just cancel our first turn damage by setting out of the range.

Let's say fyreslayers with 30  auric hearthguards deepstirking can shoot of a unit of 40 monks, and deepkins who have low drops and could fly over the screening clanrats, and Gloomspite Gitz do anti-horde magic, and Sylvaneth who just block the sight...... I could imagine various tough matches against these factions, while FEC just depends on the unkillable Terrorgheist killing things and win, who is really the one.

I am new to this army and I admit it is strong but not that strong which needs urgently nerfed.

Skaven are busted, firmly on tier 1 along with DoK and Gristlegore and arguably Fyreslayers, though we need more data for that last one.  I'd argue pre-nerf DoK and Nagash + Grims of 6 months ago were more 'auto win' than Skaven, and all armies are beatable - especially when run badly.

However, Skaven's problem is different to the problem FEC has.

Skaven's scrolls are more or less okay. Bump up monks (how one of the best combat units in the game with access to Death Frenzy is only 240 points I will never know) and the Warpseer and probably WLV and we will still be great.

FEC has busted mechanics with their pile-ins and activation shenanigans. Nerf their points too badly and they could totally disappear. They've already taken a hit from the nerf to CP generation. A few too many points increases and they will be in serious trouble.

I think part of the problem you are running into (I presume your mates are complaining that you are playing filth?) is that a lot of people  think they are being competitive by taking the strongest version of a lower strength army, then complain when you table their Gutbusters on Turn 1. 

Other competitive armies give Skaven a hard time with their equally filthy lists. 

Edited June 17, 2019 by Unter

[frostfire]

3 minutes ago, Unter said:

They've already taken a hit from the nerf to CP generation.

What's the nerf may I ask?

[Gwendar]

9 minutes ago, Unter said:

Skaven are busted, firmly on tier 1 along with DoK and Gristlegore and arguably Fyreslayers, though we need more data for that last one. 

Other competitive armies give Skaven a hard time with their equally filthy lists. 

Then, if we're speaking in that regard.. are they really all that "busted" when you compare them with all the other armies doing well? Those are what you're seeing at the tournaments after all. Like I said previously, there's been a noticeable power creep so they will either; Bring everyone down a notch, or continue updating everyone in a way that makes them equally as "busted".

Outside of competitive matched\tournament play, yeah, they're strong but I don't believe they're as strong as most people make them out to be. Some units, like Monks, need a points change for sure, but I don't think they're "busted" as a whole.

5 minutes ago, frostfire said:

What's the nerf may I ask?

I believe the change is that you can only ever get 1 extra CP by being at least 50 points under your max. A lot of FeC players were playing (mostly) Gristlegore and going 100-200 points under and starting with 2-4 extra CP right out of the gate. This let everything (usually multiple Terrorgheists) charge T1\2 and get into multiple combats and be able to Feeding Frenzy every one of them to attack again.

Personally, I think that's largely why this change was brought on as almost every other army was at most only playing 50 under to start with 1 extra and that was it.

[frostfire]

19 minutes ago, Unter said:

I think part of the problem you are running into (I presume your mates are complaining that you are playing filth?) is that a lot of people  think they are being competitive by taking the strongest version of a lower strength army, then complain when you table their Gutbusters on Turn 1.

Just the opposite. It's not my local who complain about Skaven. Instead when I mentioned that people worldwide are complaining, they just tell different opinions.

It's them who demonstrate various ways to counter Skaven, showing the drawback and stuff. Skaven is just okay to them while FEC and Fyreslayers are the real meta smashers. 

In fact, my locals play all types of competitive army. For reference: DoK,SCE,FEC,LoN,FS,Slaanesh and all faction with battletomes. 

 

[Unter]

This is a useful twitter thread to analyse what is busted and what isnt: 

As you can see, the author uses win % chances and I believe a weighting on tournament win % to create a tentative tier list. Clearly not perfect, but it is backed up by data. I'd switch FS with IDK but that's personal preference.

Not everything can be brought up to 'busted' level, because busted is a relative concept. As you say, there is power creep in the game. Just look at Nagash, I'd be surprised if you see him in any top lists until GHB 2020 now that Grims are up to 420 but we'll see.

Plague Monks currently are absolutely busted. 240 points for I think the most expected wounds per points in the game, plus fairly reliable access to Death Frenzy making them an effective tool vs Gristlegore.

Skaven are loaded with Battleshock immunity and casting bonuses, and they are relatively self-sufficient from a damage perspective anyway. That's before you get into the numbers PM can put out with buffs.

I've played multiple tournament games where a single PM block has killed several units at once, for a fraction of the points you'd expect to pay for such carnage.

Again, the fact that they are busted is intrinsically tied to their points. The fact that a single block would still likely be a preferred choice even if they went up to 350 suggests that something is off, given how cheap many other Skaven units are.

Also as a disclaimer I love it, I enjoy playing competitive AoS and Skaven are as competitive as it gets at the moment. Enjoy it while you can!
 

[Gwendar]

38 minutes ago, Unter said:

I've played multiple tournament games where a single PM block has killed several units at once, for a fraction of the points you'd expect to pay for such carnage.

I haven't argued that Monks don't need adjustment, they absolutely do and I'm well aware of the damage they can output. I just don't think using the term "busted" so loosely describes much and often becomes taken as OP and in need of serious fixing especially when the arguement keeps going back to a single unit.. lots of armies have single units or more that need to be looked at but aren't considered "busted".

Skaven got upgraded in terms of their magic, but I think everyone is going that route... for the most part. It's scary to think of what Tzeentch or Seraphon will turn into with their updates. Every year, multiple times throughout the year, units get changed in warscroll errata or points changes; it's nothing new. I'm just saying that there's absolutely no need to get crazy with nerfs\point reductions to Skaven when only a couple of things are overly powerful than average. DoK got drastic increases across the board and I except the same treatment to us, and that's fine.

[Unter]

So you agree with my statements but don't want me to say 'busted'? Ok, we can say broken, overpowered or unbalanced instead.

At 6Nations I believe each team had at least 40 PMs, with many opting for 80 (including the winners). 

I'd be interested to see a more efficient warscroll in terms of a points : damage ratio, and they come into their own with how cheaply Skaven can access BS immunity and Death Frenzy - or even double Frenzy if you take the Warbringer!

I don't really know what line you are pushing, you are saying people shouldn't go crazy about Skaven, but also that you'd be fine with drastic points increases.

I do agree there's a danger Skaven get over-nerfed, but imo we are less vulnerable than Gristelgore in that respect.

PMs to 300 - 350 and Verminlords up by 20 is what I'd expect. I'd expect Verminlords up by more but looks like there's some pretty substantial changes to endless spell points which I think is a kick to the Verminlord endless spell lists.

[Skreech Verminking]

50 minutes ago, Unter said:

So you agree with my statements but don't want me to say 'busted'? Ok, we can say broken, overpowered or unbalanced instead.

At 6Nations I believe each team had at least 40 PMs, with many opting for 80 (including the winners). 

I'd be interested to see a more efficient warscroll in terms of a points : damage ratio, and they come into their own with how cheaply Skaven can access BS immunity and Death Frenzy - or even double Frenzy if you take the Warbringer!

I don't really know what line you are pushing, you are saying people shouldn't go crazy about Skaven, but also that you'd be fine with drastic points increases.

I do agree there's a danger Skaven get over-nerfed, but imo we are less vulnerable than Gristelgore in that respect.

PMs to 300 - 350 and Verminlords up by 20 is what I'd expect. I'd expect Verminlords up by more but looks like there's some pretty substantial changes to endless spell points which I think is a kick to the Verminlord endless spell lists.

I wouldn’t really call the whole skaven range broken or op, but you are right there are a few unit that could well cost a bit more in points.

Yes, we do have units like plague monks that should maybe get a points increase .

I also agreee with the point that some Verminlords are a bit to cheap and should get a small point increase(20-40p)

What I don’t agree on is that the battleshock immunity makes us unbelievable strong and almost unkillable.

sure it helps us keep our battleline units a bit longer in the fray, but still there are armies, out there where they basically kill 40-60 models in one round of combat.

also battleshock immunity buffs has become frequently usual in most armies.

I mean even some grand allegiance can give such buffs with their artefacts/commandtraits.

and  with most of our battleshock immunity buffs, we still have restriction like being wholly within 13 and so on.

not somethings that really benefits the whole army, but a small amount of units.

Sure there are exceptions like the warpseer or the doom bell, but in the end the endless spell can easily be dispelled having only a casting value of 6, and the Verminlord, well yeah, probably is the biggest problem, but as it seem he might get a bit mir expensive with the next faq (hopfully/sadly)

[GeneralZero]

When you see how death wizzards got a bump in points (=nerf), I'm expecting also this kind of bump on our Vermilords. I'd be glad if it'd be only 20 pts but I'm afraid of 40.

This + bump of ES will have a non neglecting effect on our lists. (I'm afraid also of the shooting nerf: I bet that canon and jezzail will suffer)

Edited June 18, 2019 by GeneralZero

[Hagbean]

Please for the love of the Great Horned One, reduce the cost of Stormvermin.