AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion

[Maier666]

2 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Hi @Maier666,

where are your 160clanrats at?

they seem to have gone missing.

jokes aside, I for one really like your second list, since it gives you some great missile support (and a bit of rolling doom surprise for your enemy).

your staying power is a bit lacking but I’m guessing your green-thing playing partner has your back at this (although remember to clutch a shield on your back just in case. The skaven race isn’t the only factions that likes to get a bit stabby).

Anyways Good luck and happy wargaming.

At first I really had 100 in my list, but I want to try some of our new toys. Doomwheel and powered up Ratling guns foremost 😅

[Axter]

Guys i'm going to play a 1500 pt game for the campaign we are doing against a seraphon army in the "battle for the pass" battleplan. I was thinking at this list

Verminlord warpseer

Arch warlock

6x stormfiends (2 ratlings, 2 windlauncher, 2 gauntlet)

40 clan rats

20 clan rats

40 monks

What do you think? My collection is pretty big (mostly skryre and pestilens) what should i add? I think my enemy will bring 3 or 4 razordonts (that scary me) and most probably a slann.

Any suggestion?

[Gwendar]

So, amidst all the list-critiques, I'd like to post up some discussion on a few units.

Has anyone been throwing in an HPA to their mixed lists? I had been considering 4-6 Ogres + Master Moulder but.. it almost seems like just running a 220 point distraction with good damage output (and it doesn't need a MM for support) would be a better investment. I've been debating on getting one and just have it go right up front and hope for the best. At the very least it would be great at breaking apart a defensive horde where my Warpfire may not be able to properly get to before getting shot to pieces.

Plague Monks V Stormvermin. I've been going relatively shooting + Magic heavy in my games, but I've been considering sticking in something that can actually do something in the combat phase. It seems people have been having success with just 1x40 Monks and it's a different story when using Stormvermin. On average, what kind of mileage is everyone getting from unsupported Monks? Especially when compared to, say, 20-30 Stormvermin?

Lastly... Catapults. There was some previous destruction about running the battalion, and in some way I almost wonder if 2-3 would do better than my 2 WLC's that I bring in every list. I've had people hiding their units a lot lately and these seem like the perfect answer if a Gnawhole is being screened (and thus I can't teleport a WLC in range of the hiding unit). No LoS,greater range and the potential to get them down to 2's\2's is enticing.


Anyway, just curious on everyone else's opinions. No games scheduled this weekend unfortunately but I would like to get some more painting down and give a few things a try next weekend since my standard list has proven itself pretty capable in a few cases.

[swarmofseals]

38 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

On average, what kind of mileage is everyone getting from unsupported Monks? Especially when compared to, say, 20-30 Stormvermin?

20 Stormvermin will do an average of 18.22 rend 1 damage per turn, and they have an expected wounds vs. rend 0 of 40. Note that the damage falls off dramatically even after losing just 1 model, and their expected wounds drops if they fall below 10 models.

40 Plague Monks will do an average of 15.5 rend 1 damage plus an additional 46.67 rend 0 damage per turn. That does not count their charge bonus. If they charge, that number goes up a LOT. They have an expected wounds vs rend 0 of 48.  The only problem is that it will be harder to get 40 Plague Monks in range to attack, so you can probably expect that some of your rats will be idling.

Still though, it's really no contest. For 40 points fewer you get tremendously more damage and more survivability, and it takes 11 deaths before your damage per model starts to drop off rather than 1. 

Plague Monks are by far the most OP offensive unit in the game right now. 

And as far as support goes, why not take a Plague Furnace? Giving your monks battleshock immunity is great, and it actually is quite efficient on its own. Even if you don't do that though a unit of Plague Monks is still going to be great.

My biggest gripe about this battletome is how much better Plague Monks are than Clanrats. I'd love to be able to support my infantry with all of the cool and fun Skaven toys, but it's so hard to justify the downgrade from monks to Clanrats as battleline.

 

EDIT:  Regarding Plagueclaws, I think they have a completely different role than WLC. Plagueclaws are far and away at their best when shooting at large units. When shooting at 10+ strong units, they do similar average damage to a WLC, but it's rend 2 instead of mortal. In exchange you get added range, slightly slower cost and indirect fire. 

WLC are at their best when shooting at support heroes who would otherwise be very difficult to hit with conventional shooting. Against a target like this, the Plagueclaw is expected to do only a third of the damage of a WLC, and at rend 2 instead of mortal. 

Personally, I don't like the Plagueclaw mostly because Skaventide has access to better tools for wiping out hordes. WLC, on the other hand, does something special by enabling you to snipe support heroes. 

That said, your concern about LOS is a valid one. I'd just suggest that Plagueclaws will be too ineffective against small targets to be worth bothering with. 

Edited March 7, 2019 by swarmofseals

[mmimzie]

1 hour ago, swarmofseals said:

20 Stormvermin will do an average of 18.22 rend 1 damage per turn, and they have an expected wounds vs. rend 0 of 40. Note that the damage falls off dramatically even after losing just 1 model, and their expected wounds drops if they fall below 10 models.

40 Plague Monks will do an average of 15.5 rend 1 damage plus an additional 46.67 rend 0 damage per turn. That does not count their charge bonus. If they charge, that number goes up a LOT. They have an expected wounds vs rend 0 of 48.  The only problem is that it will be harder to get 40 Plague Monks in range to attack, so you can probably expect that some of your rats will be idling.

Still though, it's really no contest. For 40 points fewer you get tremendously more damage and more survivability, and it takes 11 deaths before your damage per model starts to drop off rather than 1. 

Plague Monks are by far the most OP offensive unit in the game right now. 

And as far as support goes, why not take a Plague Furnace? Giving your monks battleshock immunity is great, and it actually is quite efficient on its own. Even if you don't do that though a unit of Plague Monks is still going to be great.

My biggest gripe about this battletome is how much better Plague Monks are than Clanrats. I'd love to be able to support my infantry with all of the cool and fun Skaven toys, but it's so hard to justify the downgrade from monks to Clanrats as battleline.

 

EDIT:  Regarding Plagueclaws, I think they have a completely different role than WLC. Plagueclaws are far and away at their best when shooting at large units. When shooting at 10+ strong units, they do similar average damage to a WLC, but it's rend 2 instead of mortal. In exchange you get added range, slightly slower cost and indirect fire. 

WLC are at their best when shooting at support heroes who would otherwise be very difficult to hit with conventional shooting. Against a target like this, the Plagueclaw is expected to do only a third of the damage of a WLC, and at rend 2 instead of mortal. 

Personally, I don't like the Plagueclaw mostly because Skaventide has access to better tools for wiping out hordes. WLC, on the other hand, does something special by enabling you to snipe support heroes. 

That said, your concern about LOS is a valid one. I'd just suggest that Plagueclaws will be too ineffective against small targets to be worth bothering with. 

Like thralls, tzaangors, and many other units with great numbers. Its all about how many models that are actualy able to get into attack range. Storm vermin can decently reasonably get 30-35 models all in range to attack the same unit. Where as plague monks are trying for like 20-25. 

[DaveMundo65]

Still WiP but here is my 3d printed solution for turning some of my mortars into ratling guns. What do you guys think?

[swarmofseals]

3 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

Like thralls, tzaangors, and many other units with great numbers. Its all about how many models that are actualy able to get into attack range. Storm vermin can decently reasonably get 30-35 models all in range to attack the same unit. Where as plague monks are trying for like 20-25. 

I think 20-25 is a bit of an exaggeration. Let's do the math though based on your numbers and see. 30 stormvermin, all of them getting to attack vs. 40 plague monks with 20 models attacking with knives and 30 models attacking with staves. Note that having 30 models also helps the stormvermin, but we're going to need to control for the significantly greater point cost.

30 Stormvermin: 33.88 rend 1 damage on average

Plague Monks (not charging): 8.89 rend 1 damage plus 26.67 rend 0 damage on average

Plague Monks (charging):  15 rend 1 damage plus 45 rend 0 damage.

If you use my WDR formula to normalize the rend (rend 1 = 1.33 times rend 0) and then control for the cost difference, you get the following numbers:

Stormvermin: .1073

Plague Monks (not charging): .1604

Plague Monks (charging):  .2706

 

So there you have it. Even if only 20 Plague Monks get to fight with their blades and 30 with their Staves, they are still nearly 50% more efficient when not charging and 152% more efficient when charging. That and they don't lose their +1 to wound roll after taking only one casualty.

On defense it's absolutely no contest. Even if you assume the Stormvermin never lose their +1 to save, their defensive efficiency is .1429 when compared to Plague Monk's .2. So Plague Monks are 40% more efficient on defense vs rend 0. That increases to 56% more efficient against rend 1, 94% more efficient vs. rend 2 and 133% more efficient vs. rend 3 or better.

 

[swarmofseals]

 

14 minutes ago, DaveMundo65 said:

Still WiP but here is my 3d printed solution for turning some of my mortars into ratling guns. What do you guys think?

Absolutely brilliant. 

Edited March 7, 2019 by swarmofseals

[Rizara]

nice mod conversion for the old mortars.  A little odd that he is still holding a ball in the front, but at least it still can't be discounted as being a ratling gun.    

As for the storm vermin verus plague monks.   All i can say is stormvermin are expensive for what they do.  If a full 40 man unit maybe cost 400 points versus 500, i could see justifing them more, as it stands they are still expensive to field.  However...they count as battleline, while plague monks only count as battleline if you are taking all pestilin clan stuff.  So...in that regard, the stormvermin who are battle line, so replace one of the battle line tax units, to add some hitting power in your army, might be better for someone who isn't taking plague monk stuff.   For example, I am going mostly skryre, I personally don't care for the nurgle taint or disease ridden rats, but I i would like some bodies to support my weapons and large gun toting stormfiends.  That being said, acolytes are too expensive to buy, converting is time consuming, and a bit more expensive than the clanrat/stormvermin alternatives, so it leaves me taking either clanrats/stormvermin for numers and plague monks aren't worth me taking because at that point they are eating into the points i need for skryre weapons and units.    That being said, right now I am going clan rats, simply because stormvermin are too expensive to field points wise for what they do, and eat into my points needed for other goodies.     Its a shame too, because I really like the look of the stormvermin, and would rather see my armie being all armored up as a skryte clan would probably be.   

[Balloon Dwarf]

Okay, I've got my first game with my Skryre army this weekend and would love some ideas for Relics and Traits. 

Current list is:

Arch Warlock 

Warlock Bombardier 

Warlock Engineer

 

3 x Stormfiend 

- Doomflayer Gauntlets, Warpfire Throwers, Grinderfist

3 x Stormfiend 

- Doomflayer Gauntlets, Warpfire Throwers, Ratling Guns

6 x Stormfiend 

- 2x shock gauntlets, 2x ratling guns, 2x windlaunchers

Warp Lightning Cannon

Warp Lightning Cannon

Warpfire Thrower Team 

Emerald Lifeswarm

Warp Lightning Vortex 

This list seemed insane enough to be great fun, with some more more everything going off, and I really don't want to paint 100 clanrats or shell out for a gazillion acolytes. 

Any tips, tricks or suggestions of strategy, spells, relics... Everything?

[Gwendar]

4 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

The only problem is that it will be harder to get 40 Plague Monks in range to attack, so you can probably expect that some of your rats will be idling.

And as far as support goes, why not take a Plague Furnace? Giving your monks battleshock immunity is great, and it actually is quite efficient on its own. Even if you don't do that though a unit of Plague Monks is still going to be great.

My biggest gripe about this battletome is how much better Plague Monks are than Clanrats. I'd love to be able to support my infantry with all of the cool and fun Skaven toys, but it's so hard to justify the downgrade from monks to Clanrats as battleline.

 

EDIT:  Regarding Plagueclaws, I think they have a completely different role than WLC. Plagueclaws are far and away at their best when shooting at large units. When shooting at 10+ strong units, they do similar average damage to a WLC, but it's rend 2 instead of mortal. In exchange you get added range, slightly slower cost and indirect fire. 

WLC are at their best when shooting at support heroes who would otherwise be very difficult to hit with conventional shooting. Against a target like this, the Plagueclaw is expected to do only a third of the damage of a WLC, and at rend 2 instead of mortal. 

Personally, I don't like the Plagueclaw mostly because Skaventide has access to better tools for wiping out hordes. WLC, on the other hand, does something special by enabling you to snipe support heroes. 

That said, your concern about LOS is a valid one. I'd just suggest that Plagueclaws will be too ineffective against small targets to be worth bothering with. 

All good points, and I did expect many of them to not get in, but I knew that enough would, even if some get killed on the way there. While I would love to include a furnace, I really just have room and really dislike pestilens as a whole but my competitive choices tend to change that, so here we are. As you said, I'm sure they'll be just fine as they have been a common unit to bring along even before the update.

I understand they have a different role, and my WLC's have contributed to me winning most of my games more than most of my other units (well, as of right now the WLV is getting most of the kills...) but even against a lone hero, it has potential to do some damage. I wouldn't really bring them against hordes as we have better\equally as good answers to that. As I said a couple pages back, I may just give a Deceiver\Gutter Runners a shot to try and get in range of killing something but.. the local Seraphon player likes to screen everything with Skinks to a ridiculous degree, hence my thoughts on trying Plagueclaws.

Of course, there's nothing stopping him from catching onto this and just teleporting his Slann to the other end of the table to avoid being shot at. We'll see.

[Baron Wastelands]

6 hours ago, Balloon Dwarf said:

Okay, I've got my first game with my Skryre army this weekend and would love some ideas for Relics and Traits. 

Current list is:

Arch Warlock 

Warlock Bombardier 

Warlock Engineer

 

3 x Stormfiend 

- Doomflayer Gauntlets, Warpfire Throwers, Grinderfist

3 x Stormfiend 

- Doomflayer Gauntlets, Warpfire Throwers, Ratling Guns

6 x Stormfiend 

- 2x shock gauntlets, 2x ratling guns, 2x windlaunchers

Warp Lightning Cannon

Warp Lightning Cannon

Warpfire Thrower Team 

Emerald Lifeswarm

Warp Lightning Vortex 

This list seemed insane enough to be great fun, with some more more everything going off, and I really don't want to paint 100 clanrats or shell out for a gazillion acolytes. 

Any tips, tricks or suggestions of strategy, spells, relics... Everything?

I’d take deranged inventor as a trait, and vigordust injector as a relic. On you arch warlock as general. Spells, you can take all 3 with your three casters, though more more warp power is the best, but put it on your warlock engineer so he can still buff the fiends if the general gets sniped. Endless spell wlv is great and will want recasting, don’t forget. Put your general’s buffs mainly on the 6xstormfiend gunners, you won’t be sorry - and don’t foget to throw them a spark every turn. Inventor+injector+spark and they will just mow stuff down. You can’t really buff your wlc, so don’t try, but you can overcharge them, so I’d leave your warlock engineer with them initially. Use your 2 units of 3 fiends as interference, really. And don’t have a plan for your bombardier, that way he is free to explode himself when you need him to at the juiciest target you can find.

[5kaven5lave]

6 hours ago, Balloon Dwarf said:

Okay, I've got my first game with my Skryre army this weekend and would love some ideas for Relics and Traits. 

Current list is:

Arch Warlock 

Warlock Bombardier 

Warlock Engineer

 

3 x Stormfiend 

- Doomflayer Gauntlets, Warpfire Throwers, Grinderfist

3 x Stormfiend 

- Doomflayer Gauntlets, Warpfire Throwers, Ratling Guns

6 x Stormfiend 

- 2x shock gauntlets, 2x ratling guns, 2x windlaunchers

Warp Lightning Cannon

Warp Lightning Cannon

Warpfire Thrower Team 

Emerald Lifeswarm

Warp Lightning Vortex 

This list seemed insane enough to be great fun, with some more more everything going off, and I really don't want to paint 100 clanrats or shell out for a gazillion acolytes. 

Any tips, tricks or suggestions of strategy, spells, relics... Everything?

Obviously make sure you have an engineer near one of your cannons but avoid overcharging until they’re almost dead I’d say. That blob of 6 Fiends will go mental if you cast MMWP on them and spend a Warpstone Spark too. Just be aware that you will be low on bodies and that Stormfiends can occasionally dissapoint as they’re quite swingy in my experience. Good luck!! 

[GeneralZero]

1 hour ago, 5kaven5lave said:

Obviously make sure you have an engineer near one of your cannons but avoid overcharging until they’re almost dead I’d say. That blob of 6 Fiends will go mental if you cast MMWP on them and spend a Warpstone Spark too. Just be aware that you will be low on bodies and that Stormfiends can occasionally dissapoint as they’re quite swingy in my experience. Good luck!! 

Also, maybe something to slow/crowd control enemy: baricade or shackles...

[Skreech Verminking]

48 minutes ago, GeneralZero said:

Also, maybe something to slow/crowd control enemy: baricade or shackles...

Shackles 

[Ashes]

I´ve two questions I´m not sure if it´s correct:

 

1) The Suspicious Stone artefact (negates an allocated wound or mortal wound on a 5+) - Does this artifact work after I used the Protection of the horned Rat ability? Would make the Warpseer very immune to any damage.

 

2) Can I use the more-more Warp Lightning of the WLC only with the Warlock Engineer warscroll or also with the Bombardier and Arch-Warlock who both have the Warlock Engineer-Keyword?

 

 

[Skreech Verminking]

50 minutes ago, Ashes said:

I´ve two questions I´m not sure if it´s correct:

 

1) The Suspicious Stone artefact (negates an allocated wound or mortal wound on a 5+) - Does this artifact work after I used the Protection of the horned Rat ability? Would make the Warpseer very immune to any damage.

 

2) Can I use the more-more Warp Lightning of the WLC only with the Warlock Engineer warscroll or also with the Bombardier and Arch-Warlock who both have the Warlock Engineer-Keyword?

 

 

1.yes the suspicious stones protection can still be used, even if this model has a similar ability (for example protection of the horned rat)

2. All of your warlock engineers are able to bump up the damage of your warplightning cannon. Meaning the bombardier and Arch warlock are also classified in doing this kind of repairs. 

Edited March 8, 2019 by Skreech Verminking

[Ashes]

Amazing! Especially the suspicious  stone on my Warpseer was a real pain for my opponent as that Verminlord became unkillable. He plays DoK and I had some hard time especially with my Nighthaunts against him. Now with the Skaven and the many monks I fielded the tides turned. Monks were able to compete with his fully buffed Witch Aelves.

Edited March 8, 2019 by Ashes

[Forrix]

16 hours ago, swarmofseals said:

I think 20-25 is a bit of an exaggeration. Let's do the math though based on your numbers and see. 30 stormvermin, all of them getting to attack vs. 40 plague monks with 20 models attacking with knives and 30 models attacking with staves. Note that having 30 models also helps the stormvermin, but we're going to need to control for the significantly greater point cost.

30 Stormvermin: 33.88 rend 1 damage on average

Plague Monks (not charging): 8.89 rend 1 damage plus 26.67 rend 0 damage on average

Plague Monks (charging):  15 rend 1 damage plus 45 rend 0 damage.

If you use my WDR formula to normalize the rend (rend 1 = 1.33 times rend 0) and then control for the cost difference, you get the following numbers:

Stormvermin: .1073

Plague Monks (not charging): .1604

Plague Monks (charging):  .2706

 

So there you have it. Even if only 20 Plague Monks get to fight with their blades and 30 with their Staves, they are still nearly 50% more efficient when not charging and 152% more efficient when charging. That and they don't lose their +1 to wound roll after taking only one casualty.

On defense it's absolutely no contest. Even if you assume the Stormvermin never lose their +1 to save, their defensive efficiency is .1429 when compared to Plague Monk's .2. So Plague Monks are 40% more efficient on defense vs rend 0. That increases to 56% more efficient against rend 1, 94% more efficient vs. rend 2 and 133% more efficient vs. rend 3 or better.

 

I know its still early to be calling for major balance changes but this does a really good job of illustrating why I was scratching my head when looking at Stormvermin vs Plague Monk point cost when I first read the book.

[GeneralZero]

This is a bit sad as I really like the stormvermin miniatures but they suffer the same syndrome as the grave guards (love them) (vs skeletons). They are a bit expensive for what they give.

[swarmofseals]

1 hour ago, Forrix said:

I know its still early to be calling for major balance changes but this does a really good job of illustrating why I was scratching my head when looking at Stormvermin vs Plague Monk point cost when I first read the book.

It's a bit tough to calculate just how good Plague Monks are in part because so much of their value comes from the bajillion different abilities on their warscroll. Skaven is such a massive battletome that I'm sure playtesting everything extensively was difficult to impossible, and this is just one of those things that fell through the cracks I'd bet. 

17 hours ago, Rizara said:

However...they count as battleline, while plague monks only count as battleline if you are taking all pestilin clan stuff.  So...in that regard, the stormvermin who are battle line, so replace one of the battle line tax units, to add some hitting power in your army, might be better for someone who isn't taking plague monk stuff.  

This is a fair point, for sure. 40 Stormvermin are still more expensive than 40 clanrats + 40 plague monks though, and perform far worse on offense and defense. That said, not everyone wants to field a bajillion models. To me, it all comes down to your reason for fielding them. If a person tells me that they want to field Stormvermin because they hit hard, look cool, and they want to focus on Verminus or Skryre or what not then that's great. If they say that they are fielding Stormvermin because they are the best unit option in terms of power level, then I'll pick an argument XD

15 hours ago, Gwendar said:

the local Seraphon player likes to screen everything with Skinks to a ridiculous degree, hence my thoughts on trying Plagueclaws.

Of course, there's nothing stopping him from catching onto this and just teleporting his Slann to the other end of the table to avoid being shot at. We'll see.

Interesting for sure. I'd bet that if a Seraphon player really tries hard it'll be very difficult to kill his Slaan pretty much no matter what you do. Skinks are a pain in the butt no matter how you slice it, and I think Plagueclaws are too expensive to be a real solution there (not to mention the resources that you'd need to devote to guarding them. Skinks are just a pain in the butt to deal with for almost everyone, and Skaven are no exception. Weapon teams seem like a bad idea as they are pretty short range and the Skinks can likely shred them with their own shooting. I could see Stormfiends being a decent solution as they should be able to smack Skinks around in melee as well as clear them out with warpfire/ratling cannons in a way that isn't totally vulnerable to Skink shooting. Another interesting option are warscrolls that deal damage when they move/charge like the Doomwheel and Hellpit Abomination, as they will still deal damage to the Skinks even if they retreat. Random movement is a problem, though.

All in all I think the best solution might just be pure mass. If you just march up the board the Skinks will have to give way or die. You should be able to take objectives pretty much at will, and nothing the Seraphon player has can compete with your efficiency. Once you have the objectives, pushing you off will be really difficult.

38 minutes ago, GeneralZero said:

This is a bit sad as I really like the stormvermin miniatures but they suffer the same syndrome as the grave guards (love them) (vs skeletons). They are a bit expensive for what they give.

Yeah, I should stress that Stormvermin are actually not terrible in terms of their pure stats. Their offense and defense are both reasonably efficient, although the sheer point cost is problematic in that it gives your opponent a very juicy target. I think Grave Guard would see more play if they weren't dominated in every way by Grimghast Reapers, and Stormvermin might as well if they weren't dominated by various superior options.

[Skreech Verminking]

There are three reasons why Stormvermin are a reasonable part of my armie.

firstly they are a beautiful unit, which will look amazing in 40s.

secondly they have become a battleline option for General skaven, meaning it can give you a bit of variety instead of always using a ton of clanrats.

thirdly, and the more tactical reason I use Stormvermins is because literally what you guys all mentioned is that they are outperformed by much cheaper chaff, meaning that most players won’t be expecting any Stormvermins seeing play in tournament.

Although like you all mentioned, I too believe that Stormvermins need a point reductions of at least 20p.

they are great but can show this greatness sadly only in units of 40s meaning any other size will be useless in game.

if they’d cost around the 400p (420) for 40 I could see them beeing used more often in the future while sill not beeing too strong like other units are right now.

 

[Gwendar]

43 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

All in all I think the best solution might just be pure mass. If you just march up the board the Skinks will have to give way or die. You should be able to take objectives pretty much at will, and nothing the Seraphon player has can compete with your efficiency. Once you have the objectives, pushing you off will be really difficult.

I've been thinking the same and have been considering leaving the WLC at home for ~1k games in favor of more bodies and an HPA which I am still debating on grabbing as they really seem worth their points. Again, haven't done any math on it.

My biggest issue is that he runs a very effective list using a 6 Rippers-Shadowstrike battalion that can (and has) quite easily annihilate 1 side of the board against 20-40 Clanrats leaving me with nothing on an objective and this is difficult to screen against considering the fact they can come in just outside of 3". Once those are cleared out however, it's down to his summoning (which tends to be a Bastilidon, Skinks, Rippers or Carnosaur) to play cleanup.

In 2k however, it tends to be a different story as I have all my tools available to handle whatever gets thrown at me.

[swarmofseals]

31 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

I've been thinking the same and have been considering leaving the WLC at home for ~1k games in favor of more bodies and an HPA which I am still debating on grabbing as they really seem worth their points. Again, haven't done any math on it.

My biggest issue is that he runs a very effective list using a 6 Rippers-Shadowstrike battalion that can (and has) quite easily annihilate 1 side of the board against 20-40 Clanrats leaving me with nothing on an objective and this is difficult to screen against considering the fact they can come in just outside of 3". Once those are cleared out however, it's down to his summoning (which tends to be a Bastilidon, Skinks, Rippers or Carnosaur) to play cleanup.

In 2k however, it tends to be a different story as I have all my tools available to handle whatever gets thrown at me.

Yeah, there isn't much you can do to stop six rippers from munching one of your units. If you have another unit nearby to counter-attack with, however, then you've basically taken off half their army while only losing ~200 points. Summoning is also a greater concern at 1k though as the relative value of the summoned units is much higher when compared to what is already on the board. 

I was wrong about the HPA though, I forgot that the Avalanche of Flesh ability is an actual attack and not an ability that is triggered on contact. So it's maybe not particularly good against Skinks in that way. It's still solid though. It's combat stats for the points are pretty excellent. It's reasonably efficient (particularly for a monster) even without the Avalanche of Flesh attack, and with it it can be insanely efficient. It has poor defensive efficiency though and worst of all is the random movement. I have a feeling that it's going to be the sort of unit that will win some games singlehandedly while other times will feel like total dead weight.

[bonzai]

I finaly got my battle tome, and have had time to digest it a bit. A little back ground on me. When the first GHB dropped, Skaven was my first AoS army. My collection started with two Island of Blood sets and a doomwheel and grew from there. I focused on large bricks of Verminus units, with a sprinkling of Warpfire throwers and WLC to deal mortal wounds. It was a lot of fun, and I enjoyed the synergies of the clawpack formation, banner bearer, gnaw-gnaw, and death frenzy. With the GHB 17, I shelved the army. The nerf to the crown of Conquest and banner took away the bulk of my battle shock management, and the army was prone to imploding. They also removed the claw pack which hurt my offense. The army for all intents and purposes was gutted. GHB 18 breathed some life back into the army, and I used it as a soft ball list for my wife's new night haunts in teaching games. Here was my last version of my list;

Verminlord Warbringer w/ crown, cunning deciever

Skaven Warlord on Brood Horror

Skaven Warlord w/ war halberd & barbed blade

Skaven Warlord w/ warpforged blade

20 Stormvermin

40 Clanrats w/ blades

40 Clanrats w/spears

40 Clanrats w/ blades

Allies

Warpfire thrower

Warpfire thrower

Warpfire thrower

Warplightning cannon

Total: 1,970

The battletome changed things up a bit, but I think the overall spirit of the list is still valid. Lots of bodies with gnaw-gnaw and and death frenzy acting as force multipliers and ranged mortal wound output to overcome tougher units. That said, here are some of the impacts on the list that I see. First off, I don't think that the Claw-horde battalion would be worth fitting in. It's the same cost as a WLC, and it's primary benefit will almost never come in to play. Wholy within 13 inches is a short range to fit one brick of 40 rats, let alone more than one. With the large units I want to bring, I will still be several drops regardless. So really the only benefit is the artifact and comand point. Those are nice, but not 2nd WLC nice.

I am having second thoughts about Stormvermin. Before, 20 was a solid unit. Now with the changes to their bonuses, you either want to run cheap units of 10 for battle line, or big units of 40. 500 points for 40 is just too much for as fragile as they are, and is hard to justify in a list. For now I am thinking of dropping them.

Another bonus with the new book, is that I don't have to worry about allies. As Verminus focused, I can take whatever I want. At first was seriously thinking about adding a greyseer. It would give added anti magic, and another death frenzy. I was even thinking about making him my general for the command point regen. The problem is that it has no unique command abilities, so how often would it realy come into play? The Vermin Lord would be the best canidate for that mechanic, and I already have my warbringer. So here is my first draft for my updated list.

Verminlord Warbringer w/ (general) brutal fury, things bane.

Clawlord on Brood Horror w/ savage overlord

Clawlord w/ verminous valor

Clawlord w/ malevolent

Clawlord w/ devious adversary

40 Clanrats w/ blades

40 Clanrats w/spears

40 Clanrats w/ blades

Warpfire thrower

Warpfire thrower

Warpfire thrower

Warplightning cannon

Warplightning cannon

Total: 1,950

I took out the storm vermin and replaced it with a 2nd warp lightning cannon and 3rd clawlord. This gives me an extra command point as well. The vermin lord gets to go nova once per game and has extra damage. The clawlord on brood horror has a +2 bravery bubble now, and each clan rat squad gets its own clawlord on foot. I will probably put the warpfire throwers in one squad, and the WLC in the others. Gnaw holes will help the cannon stay in range and get the rats closer to objectives. Those are my initial thoughts. Suggestions are welcome!

Edited March 9, 2019 by bonzai