AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion

[Enkyridion]

21 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Yes-Yes

OMG 😳, now I understand why is he the most expensive one

[Skreech Verminking]

11 minutes ago, Enkyridion said:

OMG 😳, now I understand why is he the most expensive one

Yes, and he is currently the only verminlord with a -3 rend weapon.

get flaming weapons on him and he can be a decent killer, although don’t throw him into any kind of mawcrushers, they will butcher him alive

[Skreech Verminking]

So having played a ton of games with my beloved rats, and having heard some of the thoughts from the honest wargamer and so on,

I went back to the drawing board and made a points wish-list.

If you guy’s have anything to add, I’m all ‘ears:

Clawlord 105-> 90

Warlock Bombardier 125-> 100

Warlock engineer 125-> 90

Plague priest 85-> 85

Plague furnace 245-> 240

Screaming bell 265-> 250

Grey seer 145-> 145

Verminlord corruptor 285->260

Verminlord warbringer 305-> 290

Verminlord Warpseer 335-> 330

Skreech Verminking 330-> 310

Verminlord Deceiver 345-> 330

Arch warlock-> 175->155

Deathmaster 105-> 70

Master moulder 95-> 95

Clanrats (size 20) 130-> 110

Stormvermins (size 10-> 20) 110-> 200

giant rats (size 6) 40-> 30

Rat ogres (size 2) 95-> 90

Stormfiends (size 3) 315-> 315

Skryre acolytes (size 5) 65-> 55

Night runners (size 10) 65-> 50

Gutter runners (size 5) 65-> 50

Plague monks (size 10-> 20) 85-> 150

Plague censer bearers (size 5->10) 65-> 80

Rattling gun weapon team 65-> 60

Warpfire thrower weapon team 70-> 70

Doom flayer weapon team 60-> 25

Warpgrinder weapon team 75-> 70

Warplightning cannon 185-> 165

Plague claw catapult 160->115

Jezzails (size 3)  145-> 130

Hell pit abomination 240-> 240

Doomwheel 165-> 135

Thanqoul on bonebreaker 405->400
 

[DocKeule]

Frankly I think that would be missing the point (no pun intended). 

Sure everyone would like his point costs reduced and be able to put more models on the table in a game. 

But with 3.0 the challenges won't be solved with just more units. In the newest books we have lot betters saves. 3+ for more elite units are not uncommon. 2+ for heroes happens. With allout defense and mystic shield we will often face 2+ saves even with -1 rend. (And often enough a ward on top of that.)
On the other hand some new larger units have some crazy rend that had been previously reserved for the largest centerpieces.

I think to keep up in this edition we need more survivability at least for our heroes (more options for wards, better saves, passing wounds etc.). As far as the number of attacks goes skaven do kind of OK. But at least the larger units need more rend and more mortal wound potential. 

I think the rift between armies with a new book and armies that have not yet been updated will be pretty steep in this edition. 

[Skreech Verminking]

35 minutes ago, DocKeule said:

Frankly I think that would be missing the point (no pun intended). 

Sure everyone would like his point costs reduced and be able to put more models on the table in a game. 

But with 3.0 the challenges won't be solved with just more units. In the newest books we have lot betters saves. 3+ for more elite units are not uncommon. 2+ for heroes happens. With allout defense and mystic shield we will often face 2+ saves even with -1 rend. (And often enough a ward on top of that.)
On the other hand some new larger units have some crazy rend that had been previously reserved for the largest centerpieces.

I think to keep up in this edition we need more survivability at least for our heroes (more options for wards, better saves, passing wounds etc.). As far as the number of attacks goes skaven do kind of OK. But at least the larger units need more rend and more mortal wound potential. 

I think the rift between armies with a new book and armies that have not yet been updated will be pretty steep in this edition. 

That is true, a new book would definitely sort a few things for us, yet I currently am wondering how the current problems can be solved, if the skaven aren’t going to get a new book for a very long time (I personally don’t know anything, when it comes down for the release dates of not yet confirmed books)

and I’m not sure if gw will update any of the units just by the an faq.

considering how rarely they ever have done such a thing.

So in the end it comes down to points, and at that point, why not try to get a understanding of how we could improve those ratty

 chances, without them becoming the broken faction,

any thoughts?

 

[DocKeule]

36 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

That is true, a new book would definitely sort a few things for us, yet I currently am wondering how the current problems can be solved, if the skaven aren’t going to get a new book for a very long time (I personally don’t know anything, when it comes down for the release dates of not yet confirmed books)

and I’m not sure if gw will update any of the units just by the an faq.

considering how rarely they ever have done such a thing.

An update in a White Dwarf might be an option since they seem to do one every month now. But I think the individual profiles are the main issue not so much the faction mechanics. Those aren't bad and kind of fluffy. I would like even more swingyness where a spell or technology has the potencial to boost a unit or destroy it. But the basics are well written compared to other armies.

 

 

43 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

So in the end it comes down to points, and at that point, why not try to get a understanding of how we could improve those ratty

 chances, without them becoming the broken faction,

any thoughts?

Even with no profile-changes I don' see points as the main issue. Also we would have to compare the point values to the newer books and the units capabilities there. 

What I would like to see is Plaguemonks in 20s so they could be run in a 40 men block using one reinforcement and get to keep the +1 to hit and wound a little longer. 

I would like clanrats to be always battleline even in mono-clan-lists. (Every clan should still lorewise mainly contain of clanrats any way). That would help to be able to run the clan-specific battleline options in bigger units (or smaller numbers). 

[Enkyridion]

Many things don't work very well in AoS 3, Skaven book is really old and we've had some nerf that hurt... And I agree with the guys from Honest Wargamer... What we lack in order to become a really competitive army is reliability...

For instance... I've been using a Deceiver with shadow magnet trinket and I can throw him on the support heroes, expect to be charged and then scurry away on the enemy combat phase 😁

[Enkyridion]

Also, we could get something like the Dreaded Thirteen Spell of the Verminking changed to a similar version of the Gift of change of Kairos, that the summoned clanrats appear within 3" of the targeted unit or something like that... It would be on every list

[Skreech Verminking]

9 hours ago, Enkyridion said:

Also, we could get something like the Dreaded Thirteen Spell of the Verminking changed to a similar version of the Gift of change of Kairos, that the summoned clanrats appear within 3" of the targeted unit or something like that... It would be on every list

I do like the idea, yet I really love the randomness on the skaven side.

considering how much damage some of the other armies do consistently, why not have ours increased but still being kept at some points random

for example the doomwheel.

we could actually really go back to the fantasy edition and take a few rules from back then re-do it for aos.

have the Doomwheel function just like a warplightning cannon.

have a singel dice determine the strength of the warplightning shot and roll 6 dice for each warplightning shot it can shoot (at full health that would be 3) for every dice that has the same or a higher result than the first dice the nearest unit (friend or foe) that is not this doomwheel, within 13 inches, takes a mortal wound.

you can choose to supress these warplightning shots: roll 2d6 if the result is less then the bravery characteristic no warplightnings will be shot.

if you fail the test, this models has to roll on a table or something.

Edited October 30, 2021 by Skreech Verminking

[LeonBox]

12 hours ago, Enkyridion said:

For instance... I've been using a Deceiver with shadow magnet trinket and I can throw him on the support heroes, expect to be charged and then scurry away on the enemy combat phase 😁

Awesome, stealing this. 

[SaucyRatBear]

The more I have been looking at things the more I am thinking that Skaven (without any changes) need to really lean into the horde side of things. While the other armies are getting amazing heroes, monsters, and monster heroes all of ours are sub par. Yet our hordes are still pretty good especially when paired with support heroes such as the Plague Priest and the Clawlord. We also have potential for recurring chaff with Moulder and kiting the enemy with Eshin. Swarming the board and then indicating targets with our heroes is what I see as the current name of the game. Our Verminlords will never stand up to a Gotrek, our Hellpits will never stand up to a Gargant, but we can have such a huge amount of wounds and source of mortals that we can still be a real threat. I feel that to often we are looking towards the fancy and fun units and forget about how solid many of our basic units are. Do I want to see some changes? Absolutely. But this is not the edition of heroes and monsters for Skaven. At least in my opinion.

[Skreech Verminking]

5 hours ago, SaucyRatBear said:

The more I have been looking at things the more I am thinking that Skaven (without any changes) need to really lean into the horde side of things. While the other armies are getting amazing heroes, monsters, and monster heroes all of ours are sub par. Yet our hordes are still pretty good especially when paired with support heroes such as the Plague Priest and the Clawlord. We also have potential for recurring chaff with Moulder and kiting the enemy with Eshin. Swarming the board and then indicating targets with our heroes is what I see as the current name of the game. Our Verminlords will never stand up to a Gotrek, our Hellpits will never stand up to a Gargant, but we can have such a huge amount of wounds and source of mortals that we can still be a real threat. I feel that to often we are looking towards the fancy and fun units and forget about how solid many of our basic units are. Do I want to see some changes? Absolutely. But this is not the edition of heroes and monsters for Skaven. At least in my opinion.

The only changes I would like to see happen soon, would be a increase in size to 20 models per unit for stormvermins and plague monks (which would also mean an increase in points, 150 (plague monks) 200 (stormvermin))

and a decrease in points for clanrats (130>110)

if that happens, we can definitely and finally play the horde game truly.

[firtahl]

6 hours ago, SaucyRatBear said:

The more I have been looking at things the more I am thinking that Skaven (without any changes) need to really lean into the horde side of things. While the other armies are getting amazing heroes, monsters, and monster heroes all of ours are sub par. Yet our hordes are still pretty good especially when paired with support heroes such as the Plague Priest and the Clawlord. We also have potential for recurring chaff with Moulder and kiting the enemy with Eshin. Swarming the board and then indicating targets with our heroes is what I see as the current name of the game. Our Verminlords will never stand up to a Gotrek, our Hellpits will never stand up to a Gargant, but we can have such a huge amount of wounds and source of mortals that we can still be a real threat. I feel that to often we are looking towards the fancy and fun units and forget about how solid many of our basic units are. Do I want to see some changes? Absolutely. But this is not the edition of heroes and monsters for Skaven. At least in my opinion.

I gave this a shot with like 150 bodies and heroes to provide Buffs and BS immunity. With everyone gearing to kill megas, they just blow through the wounds and i was finding myself running out of bodies by t3. I also struggled to get tactics in the late game with that kind of build. 

I remember playing the horde build against fec and lost 120 wounds of stuff at the bottom of 1. The dmg out there is outrageous and I don't think more garbage saves on the board mitigates it.

Don't get me wrong, I won games but it's not playing at the same level as the current meta lists.

[Skreech Verminking]

1 hour ago, firtahl said:

I gave this a shot with like 150 bodies and heroes to provide Buffs and BS immunity. With everyone gearing to kill megas, they just blow through the wounds and i was finding myself running out of bodies by t3. I also struggled to get tactics in the late game with that kind of build. 

I remember playing the horde build against fec and lost 120 wounds of stuff at the bottom of 1. The dmg out there is outrageous and I don't think more garbage saves on the board mitigates it.

Don't get me wrong, I won games but it's not playing at the same level as the current meta lists.

Yeah, that is the reason why I currently believe that units of 40 clanrats are worthless

Even with more wounds, they currently die as fast as a unit of 10 stormvermins or 20 clanrats.

60 on the other hand are able to survive the charged of basically almost any unit, yet they are a heavy points investment, for having a tarpit unit for 2 combat phases.

not great.

personally if we could get the chance back of fielding units of 40 plague monks and stormvermins again, I could see hordes becoming pretty great again,

Which I hope gw will do in their next update as well.

It is just a shame, when you’ve got an allegiances  ability, that currently only clanrats are able to truly use 

Edited November 4, 2021 by Skreech Verminking

[LeonBox]

Clanrats and Stormvermin both need their saves characteristic to be modified by their shields/numbers, rather than "add 1 to save rolls..." 

Also they need to fix the bravery buff from "strength in numbers" so that units have their bravery buffed for every 10 models, rather than simply reducing battleshock losses by 1 for every 10. I fought FEC the other night and the number of Clanrats I lost to Crypt Flayer death shrieks was insane. 

[Skreech Verminking]

34 minutes ago, LeonBox said:

Clanrats and Stormvermin both need their saves characteristic to be modified by their shields/numbers, rather than "add 1 to save rolls..." 

Also they need to fix the bravery buff from "strength in numbers" so that units have their bravery buffed for every 10 models, rather than simply reducing battleshock losses by 1 for every 10. I fought FEC the other night and the number of Clanrats I lost to Crypt Flayer death shrieks was insane. 

Yea, I’m not sure, yet why gw even bothered changing the rule for the battlshock soaven speical rule.

yet still, a increase in size for at least stormvermins and plague monks, could be a bit help, especially for mono clan pestilence army, that are currently basically unplayable 

[LeonBox]

7 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Yea, I’m not sure, yet why gw even bothered changing the rule for the battlshock soaven speical rule.

yet still, a increase in size for at least stormvermins and plague monks, could be a bit help, especially for mono clan pestilence army, that are currently basically unplayable 

I don't have any Plague Monks painted up yet (Pestilens is my least favourite clan) so I can't comment on their unit size, but I agree 100% that Stormvermin should go to 20/40/60 (or 15/30/45 at least). The fact that Stormvermin (and I assume Plague Monks?) lose the +1 to wound with just one casualty is pretty weird. It's also weird that they fixed the giant rat oversight in the summer FAQ, but not this. 

[Lord Krungharr]

On 10/16/2021 at 12:08 PM, Chase said:

You guys see any solid play from a Skryre list? I'm wanting to run 9 fiends. Which means Arch Warlock, Bombardier x2 and 5x5 + 1x15 acolytes. No skitterleap so need the bridge.

Anything less than 40 acolytes seems way too sparse.

I'm trying to decide if it's worth it. Converting and painting all those acolytes is a lot of work.

Thoughts?

For converting cheap and plentiful Plague Monk or Clan Rat bodies to Acolytes, I plan to use these:

Warhammer Skaven Acolyte 30 Heads Backpacks Hands (A2JJ7BXZZ) by CarvedMetal (shapeways.com)

But I gotta finish up some other projects first.

[Cosmicsheep]

So I have a game tomorrow against Tzeentch and I'm crafting a new list. I'm thinking lots of rats, a Warbringer with Dreaded Death Frenzy and Thanquol with Death Frenzy.

My theory is that 60 rats hitting and wounding on a 3+, rerolling 1's with double death frenzy is going to be hard to stop and will take a while to get below 30 models.

But after reading the FAQ regarding double death frenzy it states that I can pile in and attack twice after death, but only if I haven't fought in that phase? Does anyone know the logic for that? Is there a limit on only attacking twice in a phase?

[Cosmicsheep]

2 hours ago, Cosmicsheep said:

Does anyone know the logic for that? Is there a limit on only attacking twice in a phase?

Found it... 1.6.5

So if I let my opponent attack first, I can pile in and attack twice with any models killed, the remaining models can then pile in and attack as normal?

Very skaveny, I like it 😁

Edit: I now realize that rule 1.6.5 applies to the unit rather than the model. 😭

Edited November 11, 2021 by Cosmicsheep

[Skreech Verminking]

27 minutes ago, Cosmicsheep said:

Found it... 1.6.5

So if I let my opponent attack first, I can pile in and attack twice with any models killed, the remaining models can then pile in and attack as normal.

Very skaveny, I like it 😁

Yes, and since dreaded deathfrenzy can be cast d3 times on the same unit, would also mean that in the best of times you could get 2 units with double death frenzy ready.

I was even thinking of taking 2 clalwords.

1 with the brutal fury and the other with the devious adversary trait.

getting an extra attack for each lost wound in addition to the extra attacks they gain from either all hit rolls of 1 the opponent rolled or the extra 3 attacks, makes those heroes incredible killers, although you would have to sacrifice them😂

[LeonBox]

17 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Yes, and since dreaded deathfrenzy can be cast d3 times on the same unit, would also mean that in the best of times you could get 2 units with double death frenzy ready.

I was even thinking of taking 2 clalwords.

1 with the brutal fury and the other with the devious adversary trait.

getting an extra attack for each lost wound in addition to the extra attacks they gain from either all hit rolls of 1 the opponent rolled or the extra 3 attacks, makes those heroes incredible killers, although you would have to sacrifice them😂

I don't think Dreaded Death Frenzy would stack on a single unit like that. Its wording is "whenever a model from any of those units is slain, before it is removed from play it can make a pile-in move and attack with all of the melee weapons it is armed with." Death Frenzy and Dreaded Death Frenzy stack because they're different spells, but I don't think multiple instances of Dreaded Death Frenzy would. It would be quite frankly broken if a single Stormvermin model got to make 12 attacks before it was removed [3 Dreaded DF + DF + Skavenbrew]. 

[Skreech Verminking]

10 minutes ago, LeonBox said:

I don't think Dreaded Death Frenzy would stack on a single unit like that. Its wording is "whenever a model from any of those units is slain, before it is removed from play it can make a pile-in move and attack with all of the melee weapons it is armed with." Death Frenzy and Dreaded Death Frenzy stack because they're different spells, but I don't think multiple instances of Dreaded Death Frenzy would. It would be quite frankly broken if a single Stormvermin model got to make 12 attacks before it was removed [3 Dreaded DF + DF + Skavenbrew]. 

Well dreaded deathfrenzy does stalc, considering that the latest faq does mention an ability that is worded in the same way as dreaded deathfrenzy, wpuld stack, and since a spell cast is considered somewhat of an ability this works.

also keep in mind that a unit can not in no way possible be able to attack more then twice in the same phase.

so if you’ve got 4times deathfrenzy and dreaded deathfrenzy on a unit of storvermins, they still would only be able to attack twice and not more then that

[LeonBox]

Interesting take. I knew about the ruling as I use it all the time to stack Warp Lightning Storm on the same enemy model, but I hadn't considered Dreaded Death Frenzy working in that way. It's definitely something I can see them getting rid of once our new book rolls around, however. 

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

@Skreech Verminking Mind linking which FAQ you're referring to? I re-read both of those spells and technically doesnt say "up to   D3 different targets" so now im curious. Ive never used them that way.