AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion

[Skreech Verminking]

So after having played a few many games, I really have to say that I enjoy the new edition very much.

Yet there are a few things I would like to see changed with the next points and unit size update:

Firstly the Doomwheel.

there is nothing more fun to use a Doomwheel and even if it has a pretty random system. There are those times, where such a war-maschine , can be pretty handy in killing many-many bigger-expensiver units, or it at leas was.

-With the lack of rend on it’s only great shooting weapon, we currently are even struggling in getting units that cost halve their points, like for example a plague priest, which isn’t a worthwhile trait for what it currently cost.

-now there are three ways I could see the Doomwheel coming back:

firstly: we could chance the rules in sich a way it would be more fitting to it’s current pointscost, yet considering how gw has been handling things in the last points update, this would be very doubtful.

so instead I would recommend this:

-have the Doomwhee drop by 15points, and remove the singles rule on it’s pointscard.

This would allow the skaventide players to be able to use units of up to two Doomwheels, which can be a lot of fun, and could change the perspective, of how such a unit would be able to be used.

It would also have the chance to change some part of the meta.

-another possibility I would like to see for the doomwheel, would be a reduction of points, up to 25-30points.

This would give it at least the chance to deal with the smaller heroes, without the skaventide player loosing almost the double amount of points to the enemy for killing a small frey.

 

Stormvermin:

Stormvermins are an amazing Unit.

 But they currently have a huge problem (not as much as plague monks, but most of you guys probably know what I mean)

with the new edition having a rend characteristic of -1 is almost as good as that of a big 0, so they currently don’t really see much the table, at least not as the elite horde unit they should be.

And then there’s that big fluff part in the story as well as in the the allegiance abilities of the skaventide faction, and They just don’t really seem to fit that bill at all, which is very sad.

currently stormvermins have ebcome the new and better cannon fodder, protecting units of clanrats!!, from dying to fast.

That really sounds stupid and that is something they really should not be.

so here is what I would like to see to be changed:

firstly, have the unit size of stormvermins increase to 20.

reduce their points to 200 for a unit of 20, and to lock the unit to a size of 40, I would give them some rule that stands at the end of the points, where it states that this unit for being an “elite horde unit”, can only be reinforced ones.

This would bring the somewhat damage dealing stormvermins back, being able to dish out more attacks (then the currently buffed unit of 60clanrats) which would remove them from that true cannon-fodder role, they for some reason have taken from the clanrats.

-it would also remove the idea of an elite being able to take up sizes of that of cheap clanrats, which shouldn’t happen.

Plague monks

-there isn’t much to say, Plague monks just need an increase in size, they are currently not able to deal with anything and can’t even really take the skaventide allegiance ability, which is kinda stupid.

just increase the size to 20.

in a mixed force their max. Size would be 40, which is still a good amount of damage potential, and yet isn’t too much to consider an immediate thread for any army (but enough to have to consider dealing with it)

and for those truly dedicated pestilent players, can now finally truly have a reason to do so.

Considering that pestilence is currently literally unplayable, this would at least give them that one unit back.

This are my thoughts, which I would happily share with the games workshop tules team, if I knew who’d I’d have to write to.

Who knows maybe I’ll be able to do so at some point.

any thoughts, mighty warlords of skavendom

[greg19190]

Love the doom wheel idear onl y slight add is to Make giant rats a bigger size of 12 and alow doom-flayers to be taken in units of 2 and alow it to be reinforsed... Make things interesting... 

[Skreech Verminking]

2 minutes ago, greg19190 said:

Love the doom wheel idear onl y slight add is to Make giant rats a bigger size of 12 and alow doom-flayers to be taken in units of 2 and alow it to be reinforsed... Make things interesting... 

i agree.

 

[SaucyRatBear]

Points efficiency is definitely an important thing to consider and several things in the Skaven list are so points inefficient that they are hardly playable (Doom wheel and Doomflayer being my primary complaints) so these units either need points changes or rules changes but it's always tricky because when you add buffs from other units it becomes really hard to balance. I remember many years ago reading a 40k mathhammer article called something like "You're better off with Grots" which essentially said that the weakest unit in the orcs faction was statistically better than everything else point for point. I started doing similar mathhammering with our current point levels and with no buffing units my early math is pointing to the gutter runners as being the most point efficient. Unfortunately they don't take many of the buffs well or the buffs that they do take well is hard to fit in the army (example is the curse prayer which as far as I know you can only get through a Plague Priest at the moment)

[greg19190]

I think it is more what a unit dose not just killing power... For example a doom wheel may kill the small 5/6 wound hero but it gets in the enemy armys face with 4d6x2 movement (with buffing) and stops there army advancing as it blocks movement up the board, so giving you an extra turn to get points as a simple example. The doom flayers in units of 2 would enable them to both attack with 2d6x2 hits before they die (eather rolling 7 or a dubble) or getting killed.. Making them like there older unit in fantasy Increasing there save to a 4 and getting +1 to save in combat would make them better... 

[SaucyRatBear]

I completely agree that different units have different purposes but what I am saying is that some of them aren't very points efficient for doing the same/similar roles. My main purpose I realize is mostly me just complaining though because I have such a great love for doom wheels and doom flayers lore/looks but yet other units do the same job but better and less chance of killing themselves and typically for fewer points as well. With that said when I first started collecting I was dreaming of making a pure Skryre Army that focused on using Doom Wheels like a hit and run cavalry that runs over the minions, snipes the generals, then charges something on the fringe of the enemy army so they can't get surrounded. I still REALLY want to run an army like that and I still might for kicks and giggles but I don't see it being very viable and Eshin would probably be much more effective for the hit and run but it's not the same as cackling gleefully as you run-crush straight over all those man-things!!!

[greg19190]

6 hours ago, SaucyRatBear said:

I completely agree that different units have different purposes but what I am saying is that some of them aren't very points efficient for doing the same/similar roles. My main purpose I realize is mostly me just complaining though because I have such a great love for doom wheels and doom flayers lore/looks but yet other units do the same job but better and less chance of killing themselves and typically for fewer points as well. With that said when I first started collecting I was dreaming of making a pure Skryre Army that focused on using Doom Wheels like a hit and run cavalry that runs over the minions, snipes the generals, then charges something on the fringe of the enemy army so they can't get surrounded. I still REALLY want to run an army like that and I still might for kicks and giggles but I don't see it being very viable and Eshin would probably be much more effective for the hit and run but it's not the same as cackling gleefully as you run-crush straight over all those man-things!!!

I get your point, they are a cool model so should have good rules.

[Skreech Verminking]

6 hours ago, SaucyRatBear said:

I completely agree that different units have different purposes but what I am saying is that some of them aren't very points efficient for doing the same/similar roles. My main purpose I realize is mostly me just complaining though because I have such a great love for doom wheels and doom flayers lore/looks but yet other units do the same job but better and less chance of killing themselves and typically for fewer points as well. With that said when I first started collecting I was dreaming of making a pure Skryre Army that focused on using Doom Wheels like a hit and run cavalry that runs over the minions, snipes the generals, then charges something on the fringe of the enemy army so they can't get surrounded. I still REALLY want to run an army like that and I still might for kicks and giggles but I don't see it being very viable and Eshin would probably be much more effective for the hit and run but it's not the same as cackling gleefully as you run-crush straight over all those man-things!!!

I fully agree, there are definitely some units that need a rules refreshment, yet knowing gw I highly doubt that they will change anything but points and maybe unit sizes, in the yearly points faq.

If we are talking rules, there are actually a ton of units that really desperately need some rend changes (rattling guns could really go up in rend, to like -2) and doomflayers, they actually just need a huge update.

something I would like to see next to a new model that resembles the doomflayer from total war warhammer 2 would be it’s damage potential for 60points.

I would probably give it a rend characteristic of -3, and change the attacks characteristics to something similar we had in the. 8th edition fantasy.

so for example you can roll any number of dice of your choice, and as long as you don’t roll any doubles, you can resolve those attacks.

and since we are talking about damage potential, I would actually like to see it having a damage characteristic of d3 instead of 1.

and just change it’s movement characteristic to 4d6, it is literally a mini doomwheel.

[treeclimber]

This talk about the Clawlord on Brood horror a few pages back made me sad. Im annoyed that it is a legends unit now!!! I JUST converted and painted one for a painting competition when Covid happened last year, so not only were the competition cancelled, I also didn’t get to play him in a lot of games  . Oh well. As long as he has rules and points (even legends) I can play him I suppose.

[Skreech Verminking]

14 minutes ago, treeclimber said:

This talk about the Clawlord on Brood horror a few pages back made me sad. Im annoyed that it is a legends unit now!!! I JUST converted and painted one for a painting competition when Covid happened last year, so not only were the competition cancelled, I also didn’t get to play him in a lot of games  . Oh well. As long as he has rules and points (even legends) I can play him I suppose.

Yeah, I was almost at that point where I really wanted to by myself one of these guys, but for some reason FW just choose to discontinue the mode instead, such a waste of a great looking models.

it is even better looking than the badly made khorne dragon.

just a shame, that he had to go

[greg19190]

23 minutes ago, treeclimber said:

This talk about the Clawlord on Brood horror a few pages back made me sad. Im annoyed that it is a legends unit now!!! I JUST converted and painted one for a painting competition when Covid happened last year, so not only were the competition cancelled, I also didn’t get to play him in a lot of games  . Oh well. As long as he has rules and points (even legends) I can play him I suppose.

Photo of said beasty? 

[Fulkes]

39 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Yeah, I was almost at that point where I really wanted to by myself one of these guys, but for some reason FW just choose to discontinue the mode instead, such a waste of a great looking models.

it is even better looking than the badly made khorne dragon.

just a shame, that he had to go

FW seems to be shifting to focusing on HH, TOW, and specialist games. Seems like the long term goal will be to move 40k and AoS entirely to the main studio.

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

On 9/16/2021 at 5:13 PM, SaucyRatBear said:

Now like I said nobody should ever spread their damage out to give you max healing but for kicks and giggles I wanted to see what max healing would be.

In response to that massive rat swarm idea, the next level to tar pit will come down to your generalship. From my own games, Ill run all of my MSU rat swarms side by side. Imagine columns of these suckers rank and file, only each column is a different unit. Essentially you've minimized the chargeable surface area to each one. You force an opponent to split their attacks because they are limited to their weapon range. In most scenarios, youll get a proc to respawn a model out of each msu unit and the master moulders can top off their health. This works best against enemy units of 5 or more.

If they come at you with a monster, we can now use the re-deploy to shove a 60 point unit in their way instead. 

I call this the Bruce Lee. Be like water. If your opponent is a chalice be the chalice. If they are pest control, whelp, run away.

[treeclimber]

1 hour ago, greg19190 said:

Photo of said beasty? 

Sure. I think I've posted it here like a year ago, but no reason not to do it again!

It is a conversion of the "Vex Machinator, Arch-Lord Discordant" model, with a boneripper head. The clawlord is a beastigor with a stormvermin head.

Im really proud of it and Im gonna play with him, even if he is a legend model, darn it all!

 

[greg19190]

1 hour ago, treeclimber said:

Sure. I think I've posted it here like a year ago, but no reason not to do it again!

It is a conversion of the "Vex Machinator, Arch-Lord Discordant" model, with a boneripper head. The clawlord is a beastigor with a stormvermin head.

Im really proud of it and Im gonna play with him, even if he is a legend model, darn it all!

 

That thing is sweet can use it as a hellpit (same Base size) if you want to field it... 

[micahaphone]

Hey y'all, hoping to pick your brains on a thing. I'm building up towards a 1000 point skaven army, and am trying to figure out what to get in the last 115 points. 

So far, I own:

• warlock bombadier
• 20 clanrats
• 20 clanrats
• 3 stormfiends
• warp lightning cannon

Which sets me at 885/1000.

Now I'm new to AoS, but it seems like having more than one leader is a good idea, so I've mostly been focusing my attention in that direction. Options are:

• Plague priest (85 pt), seems like the mortal wound dealing prayers aren't too bad, seems okay in melee, but there's the downside of it'll kill some of the clanrats that it'll probably end up close to.
• Clawlord (105), scary in melee, buffs a block of rats to fight better. I'm nervous about a 5 wound hero surviving very long though, seems like he might get blown away before getting a chance to do anything.
• Deathmaster (115 exactly!), probably not the strongest pick but can hide in clanrats until they get closer to an enemy leader/monster to hopefully do a good burst of damage.

 

Is there anything else I should be looking at or considering? Would I actually be okay with the one leader hanging back, and then put a warpfire thrower inside a clanrat block and I guess a unit of giant rats to round it out? (70+40)

[greg19190]

The clawlord with Verminous Valour (free because he is a clawlord) will survive abit longer and he will be -1 to hit when near stuff (which he should be) not the biggest thing but if you are taking a 1000 point army can be fun to buff up clan rats to make them more than chaff... 

Carnt go wrong with giant rats as realy cheap screens... 

[SaucyRatBear]

I like the weapons team idea because it plays to the strengths of the build. With that said I think the Clawlord probably would be the best choice. It is surprisingly dangerous for a cheap hero, buffs the Clanrats around him, gives another hero to command with, and there have been some interesting builds that make him crazier like give him arcane tome so he can cast spells as well and take a spell enhancement so he can take flaming weapon and still have the option of mystic shield and arcane bolt. Lots of options in those last few points.

[Bregor]

18 hours ago, micahaphone said:

Hey y'all, hoping to pick your brains on a thing. I'm building up towards a 1000 point skaven army, and am trying to figure out what to get in the last 115 points. 

So far, I own:

• warlock bombadier
• 20 clanrats
• 20 clanrats
• 3 stormfiends
• warp lightning cannon

Which sets me at 885/1000.

Now I'm new to AoS, but it seems like having more than one leader is a good idea, so I've mostly been focusing my attention in that direction. Options are:

• Plague priest (85 pt), seems like the mortal wound dealing prayers aren't too bad, seems okay in melee, but there's the downside of it'll kill some of the clanrats that it'll probably end up close to.
• Clawlord (105), scary in melee, buffs a block of rats to fight better. I'm nervous about a 5 wound hero surviving very long though, seems like he might get blown away before getting a chance to do anything.
• Deathmaster (115 exactly!), probably not the strongest pick but can hide in clanrats until they get closer to an enemy leader/monster to hopefully do a good burst of damage.

 

Is there anything else I should be looking at or considering? Would I actually be okay with the one leader hanging back, and then put a warpfire thrower inside a clanrat block and I guess a unit of giant rats to round it out? (70+40)

I would say you definitely need another hero - you're 5 wounds on a 5+ save away from not being able to use commands on anything but your clanrats! I would say the Clawlord would probably be my first choice - good buff piece for your clanrat blocks, and could give some melee support in a pinch. Plague priest would be an interesting choice - yeah, he might hurt your other groups a bit, but the prayer support could add some real benefits. Overall I think at that points restriction the Clawlord would probably help more. 

[Bregor]

Speaking of Plague Priests... has anyone had any experience running them in a non-Pestilens list in 3.0 yet? I'm still working on the big pieces for my Skaven so I can't play it at 2k yet, but I'm really thinking slipping a Priest in will be really useful.

[SaucyRatBear]

Plague Priests are amazing especially with hordes. The curse prayer alone makes me think of them almost as an auto-include unless we can find a way to make others into priests like how the arcane tome makes heroes into wizards. I would absolutely love to give the Liber Bubonicus to a Clawlord but unfortunately it is limited to Pestilens only. The Pestilens Great Plagues are fantastic to include for a cheap hero and the other prayers are just gravy.

[fishwaffle2232]

I agree that the plague priest is close to an auto include in SOME lists. 

I have been playing around with the idea of a block of 60 clanrats supported by a bell, emerald lifeswarm (not just for clanrats), as well as a plague priest. The priest could give the clanrats a 6+ ward save, which for 60 rats is going to be very useful. As previously mentioned curse would also be a great way to generate some mortals from your clanrats. On top of this you can use reinforce and/or emerald lifeswarm on the clanrats, to get some back. 

The plan would be to take up position centrally and have stormfiends sitting behind this block of clanrats.  Without having a chance to play it yet, I think it would be quite hard to deal with for a lot of armies and it gives you a way to tie up some of the nastier god heroes and monsters that are dominant at the moment. 

Having access to great plagues, is also fantastic and for only 85 points, I think the plague priest is a bargain. I also like the liber bubonicus on him, to make his prayers more reliable. 

Edited September 22, 2021 by fishwaffle2232

[Skreech Verminking]

On 9/22/2021 at 12:24 AM, fishwaffle2232 said:

I agree that the plague priest is close to an auto include in SOME lists. 

I have been playing around with the idea of a block of 60 clanrats supported by a bell, emerald lifeswarm (not just for clanrats), as well as a plague priest. The priest could give the clanrats a 6+ ward save, which for 60 rats is going to be very useful. As previously mentioned curse would also be a great way to generate some mortals from your clanrats. On top of this you can use reinforce and/or emerald lifeswarm on the clanrats, to get some back. 

The plan would be to take up position centrally and have stormfiends sitting behind this block of clanrats.  Without having a chance to play it yet, I think it would be quite hard to deal with for a lot of armies and it gives you a way to tie up some of the nastier god heroes and monsters that are dominant at the moment. 

Having access to great plagues, is also fantastic and for only 85 points, I think the plague priest is a bargain. I also like the liber bubonicus on him, to make his prayers more reliable. 

Yeah 60clanrats an a plague priest really are a menace.

although not using stormfiends, I’ll be using the treaded weapon team bombs, and just jumping forward in range of my warpfire thrower weapon teams and rattling guns, buffe by my arch warlock who either is going to be skitterleaped by a somewhat less backstabbing friendly grey seer, or by jumping a gnawhole.

And the plague priest will just be there to get curse of and with a bit of luck I might even get an Archaon to attack his freindly Kairos in the first turn, with one of the great plagues

[Skreech Verminking]

And since I’ve already mentioned a Verminlord.

Here is my deceiver in a newly, I would even say better pose then waht he usually has as an option

 

[SaucyRatBear]

Love it!!! I can't wait to summon one of those with the bell! Still haven't gotten that to actually happen but then again I haven't played many games with the bell.