AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion

[Congratz]

In the heavy shooting meta whats our deal? What are people running? 

I don’t think Jezzails really stand a chance against all the other shooting...

My thoughts are to switch over to melee threats, like Stormvermin or Plague Monks with Warpgrinders so they can’t be shot at turn 1. Maybe use Nightrunners for some pregame movement, hell maybe even a battalion

 

What do people think about this?

 

Pretty sad tbh just bought 20 Acolytes and Jezzails from Punga... haven’t played in ages tho, so maybe im wrong and they still kickass and still using 9 Jezzails, 20 acolytes and 40 Stormvermin 😂

[Gwendar]

42 minutes ago, Congratz said:

In the heavy shooting meta whats our deal? What are people running? 

I don’t think Jezzails really stand a chance against all the other shooting...

My thoughts are to switch over to melee threats, like Stormvermin or Plague Monks with Warpgrinders so they can’t be shot at turn 1. Maybe use Nightrunners for some pregame movement, hell maybe even a battalion

 

What do people think about this?

 

Pretty sad tbh just bought 20 Acolytes and Jezzails from Punga... haven’t played in ages tho, so maybe im wrong and they still kickass and still using 9 Jezzails, 20 acolytes and 40 Stormvermin 😂

I've mostly dropped them, but just for the reason that I'd rather run Fiends + Stormvermin and Grinder and it's hard to get them in. Acolytes + Jezzails + Stormvermin is still valid enough, but I've just found Fiends more able to stand getting shot at compared to Acolytes who take 1-2 turns to get where they're needed (for me at least).

Full melee is probably the safest just because you won't lost 80% of your damage from your 1-2 Skryre Wizards dying. I'd say bringing 9-12 Jezzails with that is still a good call if you can fit them in, just because they give you a long-range shooting option and aren't wholly reliant on a Skryre Wizard to do damage like Fiends\Acolytes are.

[Coyote]

The reason they’re winning isn’t just the shooting, it’s the maneuverability too.  This is an objective based game and bodies are good.  So is Battleshock Immunity, and random Peals of Doom.

[The Red King]

My shooting comes from WLC personally. I like them for sniping out support characters even if they can be unreliable.

 

Otherwise I just try to play the objectives with 120 rats 40/40/40 clanrats and Stormvermin.

One of my first skaven games ever I always forget I won because Archaon wiped out my whole army but I sniped his teleport caster early on which he was betting on to score objectives. 

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

honestly for the shooting meta, verminous is where its at. double down on bodies and battleshock immunity. we play by challenging the opponent to do 200+ wounds needed to keep us off of objectives. sticking with melee is where i have the most fun any ways. if your opponent wants to dance around objectives let them. in a lot if ways this might be the age of stormvermin for pulling melee and objective holding duty.

[The Red King]

Allegiance: Skaventide
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)
- General
- Command Trait: Verminous Valour
- Lore of Ruin: Warpgale
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)
- Artefact: Skavenbrew
- Lore of Ruin: Death Frenzy
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Spear
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Spear
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Spear
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Spear
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Spear
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Spear
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Spear
10 x Night Runners (80)
Bell of Doom (40)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 316
 

 

Time to bring back the real SkavenTIDE!

 

Alternatively turn one bell seer into a deathmaster with the shadow master trait to ensure at least ONE character survives to give out BS immunity and bring 40 more clanrats instead of 10 gutter runners (who are really there just to fill points and screen your characters even more from deepstrike shooting)

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

44 minutes ago, The Red King said:

Time to bring back the real SkavenTIDE!

My friend, yes-yes. Just go for the third bell at this point. Rolling Peals of Doom is fun (more chances to get a Verminlord Cheeselord)

[Congratz]

I was thinking about going for something like this:
 

Spoiler

Allegiance: Skaventide

Leaders
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)
- Artefact: Skavenbrew
- Lore of Ruin: Death Frenzy
Clawlord (100)
- Mighty Warlord Command Trait: Brutal Fury
Arch-Warlock (160)
- General
- Command Trait: Deranged Inventor

Battleline
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Stormvermin (400)
- Halberd

Units
6 x Stormfiends (520)
- 2x Windlaunchers
- 2x Ratling Cannons
- 2x Doomflayer Gauntlets
1 x Warp-Grinder (80)
1 x Warp-Grinder (80)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 186

or this: better objective maybe?
 

Spoiler

Allegiance: Skaventide

Leaders
Clawlord (100)
- Mighty Warlord Command Trait: Brutal Fury
Warlock Engineer (110)
- General
- Command Trait: Deranged Inventor
Grey Seer (140)
- Artefact: Skavenbrew

Battleline
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Stormvermin (400)
- Halberd

Units
6 x Stormfiends (520)
- 2x Windlaunchers
- 2x Ratling Cannons
- 2x Doomflayer Gauntlets
1 x Warp-Grinder (80)
1 x Warp-Grinder (80)
10 x Night Runners (80)
10 x Night Runners (80)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 197

Used to this list tho, so it will be really weird!
 

Spoiler

Allegiance: Skaventide

Leaders
Clawlord (100)
- Mighty Warlord Command Trait: Brutal Fury
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)
- Artefact: Skavenbrew
Warlock Bombardier (120)
- General
- Command Trait: Deranged Inventor
Warlock Bombardier (120)

Battleline
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Stormvermin (400)
- Halberd

Units
20 x Skryre Acolytes (200)

Artillery
Warplock Jezzails (420)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 186

 

[Coyote]

Roll Skave Tide!

 

@Congratz I think your General should be the Bell, a Verminlord or an Archwarlock.
 

My current list - taking to a tourney in a couple weeks. 

It’s been successful in play testing so far.

 

[Skreech Verminking]

Playing skaven in total is a ton of fun.

having said that, I actually think that we can still play the shooting game, if there are some players who really don’t want to go out on hordes at all (but truly, we all know that that isn’t the case😉)

anyways, next to fielding 200++ bodies, you can always try and take and take some warpgrinder weapon teams into your army.

Next to keeping your heavy shooters save, they will also be a great tool for dealing against those pesky, cannot retreat tzeentch list with a unit of 40pinks.

sure he may get a few units, with that rule.

But hey you still got some stuff to take away the objective.

 

[spacenoido]

Hey, making my first post here to try and get some advice for my 2000 point list now that I've got most of my first 1000 points done. My main conundrum is whether to bring 2 Warp Lightning Cannons or 1 WLC and a Doomwheel. I'd prefer to stick to only bringing one Bombardier since my army is already pretty leader-heavy. I haven't actually played the game yet, but my worry with my 2 WLC list is that I can only buff one per turn and MMMWP! doesn't do anything for a WLC. Additionally, the 2 WLC list doesn't really have anything that can threaten through a Gnawhole, right? That's why I'm considering going for replacing one of the Cannons with a Doomwheel and giving my Bombardier Vial of the Fumigator so he can double buff the Doomwheel before scooting it off through a gnawhole to kill something Turn 1. Only issue then is me not really knowing how to fill out the last hundred or so points  left. I know I can squeeze out some more points by running Skritch as a normal Clawlord, but even then I don't know what to throw in other than maybe a couple Ratling Guns. Anyway here's the lists, ignore the artifact placement on the 2 WLC list since I just quickly modified the Doomwheel list for illustration. Thanks for any help!

2 WLC:

WLC + Doomwheel:

[Gwendar]

5 hours ago, spacenoido said:

I'd prefer to stick to only bringing one Bombardier since my army is already pretty leader-heavy. 

Additionally, the 2 WLC list doesn't really have anything that can threaten through a Gnawhole, right? That's why I'm considering going for replacing one of the Cannons with a Doomwheel and giving my Bombardier Vial of the Fumigator so he can double buff the Doomwheel before scooting it off through a gnawhole to kill something Turn 1.

That's true, you are kind of heavy on them.. not that it's an issue, but your biggest threat here is a double death-frenzied Stormvermin blob and losing that will set you back quite a bit, IMO.

I don't see a point in bringing Vial if your intention is to teleport the Doomwheel through a Gnawhole; once something moves it can't move so the double-speed move is wasted. I'll be honest, that double move is insane to the point you wouldn't even need to think about Gnawholes unless you roll like a 4 for movement. You may actually be better off taking Skavenbrew for another +1 attack on the Stormvermin or even Vigordust Injector to give them +1 to hit & Charge (which you can use on the Doomwheel T1 as well). I enjoy Doomwheels when they're buffed with MMMWP as they're somewhat reliable 5-wound hero killers. I would go with that since you have nothing else that can be buffed with that spell.

As for Skritch.. with those 40 points in the 2nd list.. yeah, hard to say. I've been using Warp-Grinder teams quite a lot to keep a unit off the board against the heavy shooting\magic meta we're in.. alternatively you could get in Night Runners for the pre-game move to zone some stuff out, or Gutter Runners for a backfield threat T1. I don't really rate the Warbringer all that much since he's taking up 280 points and isn't as big of a threat on the board as some might have you think (with the trait and artifact, maybe but without them, nah) but double death-frenzy is very nice.

I'll let other weigh in, but my lists generally cap out at 3 heroes while trying to keep 2-3 big threats on the board.. your WLC and Doomwheel put you at 3, but you'll definitely feel the loss of those Stormvermin if\when it happens. I generally prefer more shooty setups, but a Warp-grinder, 40 Monks + 40 Stormvermin + 9 Jezzails has been a go-to in my head for awhile.

[Coyote]

Ok, I’m dumb please help.  
Where does it say the Brood Horror and Skaven Clawlord (on Brood Horror) are no longer good for matched players?
Thought they weren’t legal for tournaments after the GH2020, but where can I see they are omitted now?

[Gwendar]

1 hour ago, Coyote said:

Ok, I’m dumb please help.  
Where does it say the Brood Horror and Skaven Clawlord (on Brood Horror) are no longer good for matched players?
Thought they weren’t legal for tournaments after the GH2020, but where can I see they are omitted now?

So, if you look in the GHB 2020 they have points listed under the "Legends" Pitched Battle Profile (under the Monstrous Arcanum section) but they don't have points listed under the "Matched Play" Pitched Battle Profile like the other FW stuff is under the Monstrous Arcanum section.

Points in Legends but not in normal\matched play pitched profiles means they're illegal for tournaments unless given permission.

[spacenoido]

5 hours ago, Gwendar said:

That's true, you are kind of heavy on them.. not that it's an issue, but your biggest threat here is a double death-frenzied Stormvermin blob and losing that will set you back quite a bit, IMO.

I don't see a point in bringing Vial if your intention is to teleport the Doomwheel through a Gnawhole; once something moves it can't move so the double-speed move is wasted. I'll be honest, that double move is insane to the point you wouldn't even need to think about Gnawholes unless you roll like a 4 for movement. You may actually be better off taking Skavenbrew for another +1 attack on the Stormvermin or even Vigordust Injector to give them +1 to hit & Charge (which you can use on the Doomwheel T1 as well). I enjoy Doomwheels when they're buffed with MMMWP as they're somewhat reliable 5-wound hero killers. I would go with that since you have nothing else that can be buffed with that spell.

As for Skritch.. with those 40 points in the 2nd list.. yeah, hard to say. I've been using Warp-Grinder teams quite a lot to keep a unit off the board against the heavy shooting\magic meta we're in.. alternatively you could get in Night Runners for the pre-game move to zone some stuff out, or Gutter Runners for a backfield threat T1. I don't really rate the Warbringer all that much since he's taking up 280 points and isn't as big of a threat on the board as some might have you think (with the trait and artifact, maybe but without them, nah) but double death-frenzy is very nice.

I'll let other weigh in, but my lists generally cap out at 3 heroes while trying to keep 2-3 big threats on the board.. your WLC and Doomwheel put you at 3, but you'll definitely feel the loss of those Stormvermin if\when it happens. I generally prefer more shooty setups, but a Warp-grinder, 40 Monks + 40 Stormvermin + 9 Jezzails has been a go-to in my head for awhile.

I see, thanks for the help. I'm generally trying to avoid buying the old metal/resin kits, but I think the easiest way to make the Doomwheel list work is to run Skritch as a normal clawlord, take a Warpgrinder, and then buy a command point for an even 2000. 

If I were to drop the Warbringer, what would you suggest I bring? 

[Gwendar]

28 minutes ago, spacenoido said:

I see, thanks for the help. I'm generally trying to avoid buying the old metal/resin kits, but I think the easiest way to make the Doomwheel list work is to run Skritch as a normal clawlord, take a Warpgrinder, and then buy a command point for an even 2000. 

If I were to drop the Warbringer, what would you suggest I bring? 

And no-one would fault you for that because he's a great model. I happen to have the one from Isle of Blood\Spire of Dawn which is plastic but if I didn't I'd 100% be using Skritch as a proxy.

That's worth a shot though. And honestly, I would look at 40 Monks so you have another melee threat. Monks and Stormvermin both want Death Frenzy obviously, but if I take both in a list then I can determine who will need it more that turn if they plan to charge into something deadlier than the other. Remember, Death Frenzy is as much of a deterrent as it is a "damage boost".

You could do 20 Acolytes if you want to convert them, but I find them difficult to use... would give you Engineer more of a purpose, but once he dies they lose 80% of their damage output via the Warpspark and MMMWP.

[spacenoido]

7 hours ago, Gwendar said:

And no-one would fault you for that because he's a great model. I happen to have the one from Isle of Blood\Spire of Dawn which is plastic but if I didn't I'd 100% be using Skritch as a proxy.

That's worth a shot though. And honestly, I would look at 40 Monks so you have another melee threat. Monks and Stormvermin both want Death Frenzy obviously, but if I take both in a list then I can determine who will need it more that turn if they plan to charge into something deadlier than the other. Remember, Death Frenzy is as much of a deterrent as it is a "damage boost".

You could do 20 Acolytes if you want to convert them, but I find them difficult to use... would give you Engineer more of a purpose, but once he dies they lose 80% of their damage output via the Warpspark and MMMWP.

Yeah, I think I'll build my list with the Verminlord at the moment since I really like the model. If it doesn't work out I'll definitely look into running the monks, though unfortunately I'm not a huge fan of the models. I'm not super worried about playing to the meta since third edition will probably be out by the time I finish my 2000 point list lol.

[Gwendar]

7 hours ago, spacenoido said:

Yeah, I think I'll build my list with the Verminlord at the moment since I really like the model. If it doesn't work out I'll definitely look into running the monks, though unfortunately I'm not a huge fan of the models. I'm not super worried about playing to the meta since third edition will probably be out by the time I finish my 2000 point list lol.

And that's as good a reason as any to run it. I don't mind the Monks so much... But Night/Gunner runners are worse for the monkey sculpt look.

Can't wait for 3rd.. and eventually our updated tome with some potentially updated Eshin/Moulder.

[Coyote]

@GwendarBe careful what you wish for.

 Points never really go down for useful units.  Best I would hope for would be Archwarlock, Bombadier and Engineer able to effect Skavenride units, not just Skrye; that would help Eshin with almost no changes.

[Gwendar]

16 minutes ago, Coyote said:

@GwendarBe careful what you wish for.

 Points never really go down for useful units.  Best I would hope for would be Archwarlock, Bombadier and Engineer able to effect Skavenride units, not just Skrye; that would help Eshin with almost no changes.

I'm not talking about points changes, all of Eshin and Moulder need far more than points changes to be useful. They need a wave of warscroll changes that either comes with a new tome or a new edition of the game altogether. They literally couldn't make either clan any worse than it already is.

Based on math alone, MMMWP and their other various buffs wouldn't be anywhere near enough to make them useable in a competitive environment if nothing else changed. I have enough problems with our Fiends\Acolytes losing 60% of their damage from a spell not going off as is.. I'd rather see some changes there.

[Skreech Verminking]

19 hours ago, Coyote said:

@GwendarBe careful what you wish for.

 Points never really go down for useful units.  Best I would hope for would be Archwarlock, Bombadier and Engineer able to effect Skavenride units, not just Skrye; that would help Eshin with almost no changes.

 

19 hours ago, Gwendar said:

I'm not talking about points changes, all of Eshin and Moulder need far more than points changes to be useful. They need a wave of warscroll changes that either comes with a new tome or a new edition of the game altogether. They literally couldn't make either clan any worse than it already is.

Based on math alone, MMMWP and their other various buffs wouldn't be anywhere near enough to make them useable in a competitive environment if nothing else changed. I have enough problems with our Fiends\Acolytes losing 60% of their damage from a spell not going off as is.. I'd rather see some changes there.

Yeah, points really isn’t the problem here.

I really do think that night/g

utter runners could really use a better sculpt.

they could also use some new rules that personalizes them better.

in Fluff they are basically ninjas in training.

infiltrating Armies, killing heroes from the back, and even using cunning tricks to outsmart the enemy.

In the game, basically night runners are your protective first line of defense, or in this case meat-shields, that die instead of your clanrats.

Gutter runners, are basically worse Stormvermin, but unlike their hero counterpart at least able to destroy characters. 
 

the Assassin is sadly nothing special at all, and doesn’t do the thing he should be able to do.

and the only reason I would consider him is, if I really need a hero to give me those juicy command abilities, without being sniped turn 1.

Clans moulder is a pretty fun one.

it is not bad, but gets left behind by all those other great options we have.

and the only really terrifying thing is also just the hell pit abomination.

But Rat ogres are not only to expensive, but worse then their ogor counter parts.

They could really

They could really use a speed buff. 

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

I would offer up the following: completely abandoning clans as a core function of the book. Thats controversial so let me explain. What we have currently is really just copy and paste from pre-book (for the most part) and thus our books current design is just a hellpit abomination with pages. The designers never had cross clan synergy in mind (controversial too) AND didnt fully update the individual scrolls/clans to be stable on their own.

Hence why most of us play good stuff soup lists. 

This would be my alternative: How 'bout a book designed around "schemes" of the skaven as a basis for the subfaction design of most other books.

Imagine a "scheme" of assasinate from afar where theres clear synergy and buffs specifically with eshin units and skryre. Clearly this would lean on jezzails to pop heroes in eshin fashion. Or perhaps a scheme of verminous hiring pestilens to coat their blades. clanrats with mortal wound potential on wound rolls? Sounds fun. 

Since we already play mixed lists why not lean into it? The leftover design space for pure clan factions can then be left to battalions and general battle traits. The moulder battalion is a great example of this, and ive said before, but the menagerie is the best designed battalion in the book. 

Bonus: Ill repeat what has been said so many times but please make clanrats battleline everwhere. my goodness.

 

 

[gronnelg]

How do you guys feel about the HPA? I got one for my birthday. I like the model. And it hits like a truck for those 240 points. But super squishy, brackets hard, a somewhat slow/unreliable movement. 

Does it work? 

[Gwendar]

17 minutes ago, gronnelg said:

super squishy, brackets hard, a somewhat slow/unreliable movement. 

Does it work? 

For all of these reasons, no it doesn't work reliably well in a competitive environment... usually.

They're fantastic all in all though I would like to see them be closer to 200 points.. if they do get into something (horde or elite unit) then they tend to do exceptionally well if they haven't bracketed. It's just getting them their intact that can be problematic. I find they work best against melee threats\armies that have few\little shooting or magic whittle it down. Good thing about the latter is that it can ignore magic altogether.

Edited November 4, 2020 by Gwendar

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

23 hours ago, gronnelg said:

Does it work? 

The following advice I give to any of my friends who have non-hero monsters that aren't quite "there" yet: Re-think their role in your lists. Across the board, GW hasn't cracked the code on how non-hero monsters should operate (see Beasts of Chaos). Effectively, they don't beat face (reliably as mentioned by @Gwendar), they can't take objectives, can't use command points and the "monster" chart mechanic, while flavorful in theory, overvalues the need to nerf the only things a monster is good at. 

That said, the rule of cool remains, so of course you should field 'dem monsters, especially the A-Bomb. This brings me to my advice: Despite game-wide disappointment with monsters, they still look intimidating and important. The rule of cool can  be used for mind-games even when playing against experienced players. Take advantage of this.

Will it get shot at? Of course, it'll take shots for your other more important troops. Put it front and center to lead the army. Will your opponent swarm/surround an HPA to take advantage of a low save? Of course they will, thats why you plan on hugging the back-half of it with your own troops or putting an endless spell (like vermintide) up against it to minimize surface area to be charged or piled into. Alternatively, when you make a charge, you can hug up against a building when you tag a unit, so they can't pile-in that direction. Do you have shooting of your own? Flank HPA with shooting as the distraction piece will draw out a hammer unit that's ready for melee but not shooting. If a horde unit that knows it can take on a monster, instead flank it with your horde-killing spells/magic. 

My favorite concept, because positioning and movement is king, is throwing a monster up the side of the board away from objectives altogether. Inevitably, your opponent will want to commit something to it and have to move WAY over there. The theory is your try hard friends are thinking tactically and don't want to be "flanked" even though thats not my intention. Sometimes its a chaff unit that the monster can absolutely deal and is a win for you because the chaff unit isn't chaffing your actual main force/hammers. If you're fortunate they send a slow moving elite unit, think brutes, hammer-cast or necropolis stalkers. This is great. Fly casually, but not too casually that they don't take the bait. If they charge you out in the middle of nowhere, they're on an island and will take the rest of the critical rounds not being on objectives and not killing your other objective grabbing troops. 

Notice how I didn't mention a monster doing ANY damage or heavy lifting? In fact, in most above scenarios, they probably still derp hard and die. Hell, may never even get to attack. That said, when we think about a units "value" in its ability to kill as many points as its worth, its a crime not to consider "did I get X points worth of distraction/trickery/positioning or rule of cool outt'ive it?"