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5 hours ago, AOS_Pete said:

Hey all, just wanted to drop in and say hi! Also wanted to thank everyone who supported me on FB with my "shadow rats" army on fb last week - (Pic attached so you know what im talking about :) )

I played a tournament at the weekend and  got stomped - really struggling to deploy "correctly" - I lost my bell and bombardier to a deep striking Rogue idol - my brain didn't register the size of the gap as I had a gnaw hole there and also didn't realise the threat range. 

Apart from Dan's recent video on skaven tactics has anyone got any good guides or advice on deployment - tired of losing my support pieces LOL

117236693_607706513516133_7450084769484721979_o.jpg

what a lazy paintjob, I certainly wouldn't play against you

Aside from being reminded of that absolute tool.. talking about tactics; I would honestly get yourself a 9" measurement gauge (just to make it more accurate\easier than your tape measurer) and always be sure to premeasure the hell out of everything capable of teleporting, run + charge, Bridge\teleport with +'s to charge, Bridge\teleport + range on shooting... etc etc. No competitive opponent should ever care to tell you the threat range of anything in their army as it's an important part of tournament play.. if they do they're being "that guy" and you just need to open your Warhammer app to look yourself and waste their time for wasting yours. Everyone should be "playing with intent" meaning that if you premeasure at any point in the game and say something along the lines of "the intent with this unit is that you won't be able to reach them this turn, correct?" that way there's no gotcha moments; see "that guy" above if that happens anyway.

Playing against Seraphon and some BoC so much in the past has made me ultra aware of deepstriking and Clanrats are wonderful at being strung out to negate it, even while still pushing up the board in units of 40. Skreech is right that the current heavy shooting meta we're in right now doesn't particularly favor us.. hence why I think it's become necessary to use a Grinder team with my 6 Fiends. This is compounded by the fact these types of armies are also going to beat us on drops every time. Even then, the best thing you can do is understand threat ranges and take a quick minute to premeasure everything to ensure nothing can hit you T1.

If you go up against 60 Vanari Sentinels like I did last night playing Tzeentch, good luck to you. 30" range that doesn't require line of sight and will throw out 6-10 MW's at that range per unit of 20 is.. not an enjoyable experience 🙃

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5 hours ago, Gwendar said:

what a lazy paintjob, I certainly wouldn't play against you

Aside from being reminded of that absolute tool.. talking about tactics; I would honestly get yourself a 9" measurement gauge (just to make it more accurate\easier than your tape measurer) and always be sure to premeasure the hell out of everything capable of teleporting, run + charge, Bridge\teleport with +'s to charge, Bridge\teleport + range on shooting... etc etc. No competitive opponent should ever care to tell you the threat range of anything in their army as it's an important part of tournament play.. if they do they're being "that guy" and you just need to open your Warhammer app to look yourself and waste their time for wasting yours. Everyone should be "playing with intent" meaning that if you premeasure at any point in the game and say something along the lines of "the intent with this unit is that you won't be able to reach them this turn, correct?" that way there's no gotcha moments; see "that guy" above if that happens anyway.

Playing against Seraphon and some BoC so much in the past has made me ultra aware of deepstriking and Clanrats are wonderful at being strung out to negate it, even while still pushing up the board in units of 40. Skreech is right that the current heavy shooting meta we're in right now doesn't particularly favor us.. hence why I think it's become necessary to use a Grinder team with my 6 Fiends. This is compounded by the fact these types of armies are also going to beat us on drops every time. Even then, the best thing you can do is understand threat ranges and take a quick minute to premeasure everything to ensure nothing can hit you T1.

If you go up against 60 Vanari Sentinels like I did last night playing Tzeentch, good luck to you. 30" range that doesn't require line of sight and will throw out 6-10 MW's at that range per unit of 20 is.. not an enjoyable experience 🙃

Cheers dude! And @Skreech Verminking - I guess it is all about ensuring I do some efficient pre measuring. Gonna spend an evening just practicing deployment. Won’t be time wasted 

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Just now, AOS_Pete said:

Cheers dude! And @Skreech Verminking - I guess it is all about ensuring I do some efficient pre measuring. Gonna spend an evening just practicing deployment. Won’t be time wasted 

If you have Tabletop Simulator you can message me and I can invite you to some discord groups. I definitely wouldn't mind playing Tzeentch or Fyreslayers against you to help out.

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So, Grinder teams.  Never used them yet, but will now mod as many as we need.

My last scenario was Blades Edge vs Fyreslayers, and we will rematch the two armies and scenario.

Grinder teams would be tremendous against his characters, perhaps with either Jezzails or Stormfiends, and maybe some Bomardiers too.

How many grinders is too many,

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11 hours ago, AOS_Pete said:

thanks dude - here's a few close ups. they're not based yet as waiting on some black sand to arrive :)

IMG_9723.JPG.6e3db33867a7da1b532cea69c58376fe.JPGIMG_2540.JPG.36ef40e860bce25c27acd842b5a09b8a.JPGIMG_6181.JPG.c6bcb60635e720fca741fbb5f5f32a42.JPG

IMG_4941.JPG.fa2772b3beaa6ba88a9ea981cc9c3b5e.JPG

 

IMG_8598.JPG.b93ed6c2bdb84efeec02f20d4748659a.JPGIMG_0168.JPG.34d46a142f430a493360bae3f702ce07.JPG

Sweet looking rats man! Love this theme.

Tactic tips: 

Ask for the opponents maximum threat range. Deploy accordingly.

Ask if they got deep strike. And how far from the enemy they can deep strike.

Ask if they can summon stuff.

Be aware if they have units in reserve (units that are in the air, underground whatever)

 

@Gwendar I always ask about the threat range😂😂😂

Edited by Darkhan
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9 minutes ago, Coyote said:

So, Grinder teams.  Never used them yet, but will now mod as many as we need.

My last scenario was Blades Edge vs Fyreslayers, and we will rematch the two armies and scenario.

Grinder teams would be tremendous against his characters, perhaps with either Jezzails or Stormfiends, and maybe some Bomardiers too.

How many grinders is too many,

To be honest I really think you only want 1-2. 1 For 6 Fiends definitely.. but remember your Gnawholes; you can make do pretty well with Jezzails coming out of them (or have the Skyre Wizard pop up near the Grinder team Fiends) but they would still work well enough.. also doesn't have the risk of killing any models like the Grinder does, and when Jezzails die they really want to run from BS with that 4 Bravery.

After playing as and against Fyreslayers 10 times this past year and late last year I can safely say that 9-12 Jezzails are a huge threat at all times and teleporting them around hasn't really been needed against FS. Their heroes are huge lynchpins and even 9 could easily take out 1-2 of those heroes a turn.. unless they're running the double battalion list where they're stacking +1's to save and have 30 wounds worth of Auric to pass off wounds to. 

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Edit - Correction 

What about 2x12 Jezzails both with a grinder, and a third with a Bombardier for Sparks?

the Fyreslayer list is

 

 

Auric Runefather - General

Auric Runefather

Auric  Runesmiter

Auric Runemaster

Battlesmith

2x 20 Hearthguard Berzerkers - Poleaxes

10 x Vulkite Berzerkers - Warpicks and Sling-shields

10x Auric Hearthguard 

Battalion - Lords of the Lodge

 

 

Edited by Coyote
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54 minutes ago, Coyote said:

Edit - Correction 

What about 2x12 Jezzails both with a grinder, and a third with a Bombardier for Sparks?

Worth trying. 12 Jezzails with just a spark and hit RR's are throwing out around 16 damage on average; works especially well against then as they would only get their 4+\6+ DPR. I just really don't feel that Jezzails need a grinder, especially against Fyreslayers.. that 36" threat range is covering most of the board from T1.

Your entire goal here is basically to kill those heroes to get the HGB to a 6+ DPR and then blow them off the table. I feel like with only 24 Jezzails you may be looking at a minimum of 2-3 turns to do this and if even 10 of those HGB touch 40 Clanrats it could be bad (although in this case Poleaxes are the worse choice, imo). I really think 6 Fiends + Grinder is the way to go with a complementary 6-12 Jezzails, personally.

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Hello,

How would you suggest playing clan pestilen into a Slaanesh match up?

I'm a bit worried that I will not be able to unbind Hysterical Frenzy (D3 mortal wounds on 6s per model in the unit.  When being cast by The Contorted Epitome

 

And 6s for Depravity points x40 coming from a Keeper of Secrets.

 

Thanks 

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13 hours ago, Darkhan said:

Sweet looking rats man! Love this theme.

Tactic tips: 

Ask for the opponents maximum threat range. Deploy accordingly.

Ask if they got deep strike. And how far from the enemy they can deep strike.

Ask if they can summon stuff.

Be aware if they have units in reserve (units that are in the air, underground whatever)

 

@Gwendar I always ask about the threat range😂😂😂

Thanks dude and thanks for advice!

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31 minutes ago, AOS_Pete said:

What's the current consensus on how many "threats" you need to be competitive? 

Would Thanqoul, 6 Jezzails, 40 Stormvermin, 20 Acolytes be enough threats? (supported by Bell and Bombardier)

No

Acolytes will die through a light breeze.

Stormvermins die extremely fast and loose all their value as a thread immediately after loosing halve their numbers.

and Jezzails will literally just run.

Thanqoul is somewhat great, but it is extremely hard to keep him alive.

with only 13wounds a 4+ 5++ save, who also doesn’t get the  look out sir rule, he will die extremely fast.

At least against the current shooting meta.

But then again there is a reason why we can take grinders.

I think a save bet was taking 3-5 threads into your army bevor the current meta.

and how it is currently, I think we really need to be at least able to take 5-7Threads to somehwo compete against armies like tzeentch, seraphons and Ko, if we’re not interested in using grinders as a Save-keeper

edit: although as long as your not playing against a tzeentch tournament player, Ko or Seraphons in total.

you should be fine with those threads😉.

Edited by Skreech Verminking
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5 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

No

Acolytes are dead through a light breeze.

Stormvermins die extremely fast and loose all their value as a thread immediately after loosing halve their numbers.

and Jezzails will literally just run.

Thanqoul is somewhat great, but is is extremely hard to keep him alive.

with only 13wounds a 4+ 5++ save, who also doesn’t get the  look out sir rule, he will die extremely fast.

At least against the current shooting meta.

But then again there is a reason why we can take grinders.

I think a save bet was taking 3-5 threads into your army bevor the current meta.

and how it is currently, I think we really need to be at least able to take 5-7Threads to somehwo compete against armies like tzeentch, seraphons and Ko, of we’re not interested in using grinders as a Save-keeper

GW totally screwed us, is what you're saying😂

Skaven is my number 1 army, but can't really hold the fort anymore. So started picking back up on my Dok & OBR:/

Last week I did a 40 man mortek guard blob, and was like "man this is so good and so fun". They obliterated 9 crypt horrors.

Also picked up Necrons to start 40k, I like the rules for 9th edition better than the rules in AoS.

 

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1 minute ago, Darkhan said:

1)GW totally screwed us, is what you're saying😂

Skaven is my number 1 army, but can't really hold the fort anymore. So started picking back up on my Dok & OBR:/

2)Last week I did a 40 man mortek guard blob, and was like "man this is so good and so fun". They obliterated 9 crypt horrors.

3)Also picked up Necrons to start 40k, I like the rules for 9th edition better than the rules in AoS.

 

1)No not really.

We still have options.

And depending how great these new giants will be against the current shooting meta,

their might be hope that we will see a huge shift, benefiting us again.
 

as for now, I’m basically thinking of going with style, so my next list I’ll be using for future tournaments will at least have 200bodies (mixture of Clanrats, stormvermins, plague monks ans Acolytes) with a screaming bell, furnace and a Warlock bombardier joining them)

Our threads might not be great against most units that basically do it better, but Any army will struggle to get through that many bodies, no matter how mich shooting it has.

2)that’s great mate, at least somebody had fun with his new toys.

Last time I played against them, I used 2units of clanrats of which I each charged his units in the flanks.

The only damage he did with his 80Morteks (2x40) was 2-3damage per round.

he wasn’t to fond of it, especially after I got my Warlock Bombardier in his backline, keeping one of his catapults from shooting at my true threads the clanrats.

This way of playing kept me alive and even won me the The game😜

3)that is great.

9th edition 40k really does seem great.

Although it might depend for how long the other armies will have to wait till they get the same treatment as the space marines, considering that those guys are literally getting a huge buff.

 

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29 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

No

Acolytes will die through a light breeze.

Stormvermins die extremely fast and loose all their value as a thread immediately after loosing halve their numbers.

and Jezzails will literally just run.

Thanqoul is somewhat great, but it is extremely hard to keep him alive.

with only 13wounds a 4+ 5++ save, who also doesn’t get the  look out sir rule, he will die extremely fast.

At least against the current shooting meta.

But then again there is a reason why we can take grinders.

I think a save bet was taking 3-5 threads into your army bevor the current meta.

and how it is currently, I think we really need to be at least able to take 5-7Threads to somehwo compete against armies like tzeentch, seraphons and Ko, if we’re not interested in using grinders as a Save-keeper

edit: although as long as your not playing against a tzeentch tournament player, Ko or Seraphons in total.

you should be fine with those threads😉.

5-7 threats is HARD LOL

 

What about:

Bombadier

Screaming Bell

Clawlord

2 x 20 clan rats

Doomwheel/WLC

Hellpit

40 stormvermin

20 Acolytes

6 Jezzails

Vermintide (dropped if going for WLC)

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6 minutes ago, AOS_Pete said:

5-7 threats is HARD LOL

 

What about:

Bombadier

Screaming Bell

Clawlord

2 x 20 clan rats

Doomwheel/WLC

Hellpit

40 stormvermin

20 Acolytes

6 Jezzails

Vermintide (dropped if going for WLC)

Looks interesting.

Why not try it out.

It should do fine against most factions (seraphons, ko, and tzeentch not included )

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This is probably a List I would consider using in Future events.

Allegiance: Skaventide
Mortal Realm: Chamon

Leaders
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)
- General
- Command Trait: Master of Magic  
- Lore of Ruin: Death Frenzy
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)
- Lore of Ruin: Plague
Grey Seer (140)
- Artefact: Staff of Rightful Supremacy  
- Lore of Ruin: Skitterleap

Battleline
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade

Units
40 x Plague Monks (280)
- Woe-stave
40 x Plague Monks (280)
- Woe-stave
1 x Warpfire Thrower (70)
1 x Warpfire Thrower (70)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Warp Lightning Vortex (80)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 237
 

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4 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

This is probably a List I would consider using in Future events.

Allegiance: Skaventide
Mortal Realm: Chamon

Leaders
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)
- General
- Command Trait: Master of Magic  
- Lore of Ruin: Death Frenzy
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)
- Lore of Ruin: Plague
Grey Seer (140)
- Artefact: Staff of Rightful Supremacy  
- Lore of Ruin: Skitterleap

Battleline
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade

Units
40 x Plague Monks (280)
- Woe-stave
40 x Plague Monks (280)
- Woe-stave
1 x Warpfire Thrower (70)
1 x Warpfire Thrower (70)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Warp Lightning Vortex (80)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 237
 

Now that's a LOT of bodies LOL

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3 hours ago, Darkhan said:

So started picking back up on my Dok & OBR:/

Hence my reasoning for getting back into Tzeentch and dabbling in Fyreslayers (although I still consider getting back into OBR myself...kinda wish I didn't sell them)

I just got a bit burnt out playing against all the KO, 60+ Sentinels in Lumineth and 12+ Flamers Changehost that are all nearly inescapable. The worst part about Seraphon now isn't the Salamanders as that seems to have dropped off; now it's the -1 damage allegiance with Kroak just wiping your 5 wound heroes off the board while he sits in an unreachable corner.

My local meta is incredibly casual aside from ~3-4 guys including myself so these kinds of lists don't show up.. but TTS has definitely been good for the tournament practice were these things are 100% going to in abundance and tough for us to deal with (though not impossible).
 

2 hours ago, AOS_Pete said:

5-7 threats is HARD LOL

 

What about:

Bombadier

Screaming Bell

Clawlord

2 x 20 clan rats

Doomwheel/WLC

Hellpit

40 stormvermin

20 Acolytes

6 Jezzails

Vermintide (dropped if going for WLC)

2-3 is still fine; 2 if you're using Grinders to keep 1-2 of them off the board and 3 at a minimum for anything else.. hell, even in those situations I still say bring a Grinder. There are flat out just going to be bad matchups and there isn't much getting around that, but having 1-2 Grinders to keep things off the board is helpful so far.

Everything in our army dies to a stiff breeze as by nature we're squishy. The "glass cannon" method we're used to works, but it's hinged on lynchpin models such as 5-6 wound Skryre Wizards giving a spell buff (easily dispelled nowadays) onto units that do next to no damage without it and those wizards are incredibly easy to kill with no means of defense (which is why I've preached to have 40k's version of Look out, Sir be a thing). In your case, if you're set on Acolytes then it isn't as huge of a blow as they can still function relatively well as anti-everything (primarily horde with the +1 to hit) and 6 Jezzails even without a spark have about a 50/50 chance at deleting a 5 wound hero, assuming they have no form of DPR.

Anyway, ranting aside, I would agree with Skreech that it's worth trying; if after 3-5 games (against different armies preferably) you find it isn't working for you then you can re-evaluate and change. I've ran 5-threat lists before and they worked okay, but I wouldn't say they were better.. I'd much rather have fewer, larger threats (6 Fiends, 6-9 Jezzails and 40 SV\Monks) and minimum Clanrats.

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5 hours ago, Coyote said:

This is why I’m kind of excited to try my 2x12 Jezzails with Grinders SWAT team 

Like I said, it's worth trying and I still totally love seeing people try it out (I mean, it's fun as hell to run a real backfield gunline 😉) but I want you to consider these scenarios:

1. They will likely outdrop you and can choose to go first to move everything further up the board to prevent you getting in range with the Jezzails and cover Gnawholes (in case you decide to use those instead). You now have to spend your turn killing Skink hordes in order to hopefully get him next turn if you win priority, which means your Jezzails are probably near your deployment edge on board after deploying via Grinder which has, more or less, rendered it useless for it's purpose. If you have other threats in the army that start on the board then they can clear said Skinks for them to deploy next turn.. but now Kroak may have 1-2 turns to start deleting stuff.

2. Alternatively you could be given the first turn and you bring down all 24 Jezzails right away to be in range. What you would do in this situation is kill all the Guard first with 1 block of 12 and then try to kill Kroak with the other block of 12.  You will 100% kill the 5 Guard unless you roll horrifically (believe me it happens when you least need it to with Jezzails and you'll RR 6 1's into 2's and 3's 😅) but Kroak still has a decent chance, although not a great chance.. usually if you both roll average you will maybe have just enough damage output to kill him (6-9 wounds going through on average after rolling this 15 times on TTS just now rather than using mathhammer).

Oh, and none of these calculations were done using the Coalesced rule of -1 damage taken.. so if you include that, even if you split 24 Jezzails evenly you wouldn't kill Kroak but you may still kill the Guard.



In the end however, you still may end up being the loser:
You have now put your 24 Jezzails in threat range of their Salamanders, 40 blocks of Skinks (which can do 15-20 MW's on average when buffed) or double-shooting Bastiladons or -insert 1 of 5 threats they can easily have on the board at a time due to most things being undercosted-. They will likely not survive any of those things.. and definitely not if they get a double turn. Not to mention you'll probably only have enough CP to save 1 block if it doesn't get wiped out, but not the other.. unless you're running the Bell of Doom and put it up the board. You just spent 1200 points worth of stuff (not counting the Engineer here) to kill 420 points and their army can still function at nearly 100% without him.

I guess what I'm saying is that it probably isn't super worth it to kill him unless you're certain you can do it with no retaliation to your Jezzails. I find with Seraphon that their other heroes are the ones to kill along with their units who are mostly glass (barring the Bastiladon obviously... but MW's take care of that thing anyway) and die to a stiff breeze just like we do. Because of this, I feel that Stormfiends are just the better choice as they're more likely to stick around from getting counter punched if you mess up or lose the priority roll and 6-9 Jezzails are good to have as a secondary threat to plink wounds off things or kill those small heroes that actually do most of the buffing.

If you play against the tournament standard Lumineth lists (60-80 Sentinels) you'll likely have about the same situation as they'll knock your 2 threats out with the remaining 2+ that they have. KO actually have a hard time against what you're doing; you keep both of your threats off the board and when they drop down to shoot at everything else, you drop yours down and take out their boats.



Definitely give it a shot cause I'm curious to see how it works for you.. hopefully better than it did for me even though I didn't have Grinders  🤣

also, sorry for the text wall.. all of you should be used to me going overboard with explanations and all that by now. I don't mean any of what I said as rude, so I apologize if it came off that way

Edited by Gwendar
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