AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion

[Kramer]

4 minutes ago, Blisterfeet said:

Thanks Kramer, I do try and use that when I play online 😁 should probably use it on my phone too in real life. 

Yeah and even online. Just print it out and keep it next to you. Works a treat

[Darkhan]

@Verminlord list 1 looks super fun & brutal.

[Coyote]

Anyone ever used 3 or 4 Screaming bells in a list?

[Gwendar]

15 hours ago, Blisterfeet said:

More the merrier when it comes to advice. I think I see the issue. I was using them on TTS to hit.objective sitting blobs and chip damage. Admittedly though the swingy nature can lead to frustrating times and for 300 points it's a very valid point to bring something more consistent.

It's a shame as the model is very cool. 

I calculated them vs Jezzails and WLC's when it came to killing heroes and just... yeah, not great in that capacity either because of my most repeated phrase; Consistency.

Catapults are pretty badass, I agree, Just a shame the mortar teams were usually better and those aren't even a thing anymore.
 

14 hours ago, gronnelg said:

I made a list. Seems kinda fun, and possibly good? I'm not sure what do to with the last 120 points though. Warpfirethrower and a CP?
Or Cogs maybe? Soulsnare shackels?

Honestly I would say a Clawlord is a top pick to give those Stormvermin +1 attack. Without it, they do closer to the same damage as 40 Monks anyway.
 

9 hours ago, Nikobot said:

thanks for the batreps! 

I think a doomwheel + WLC list may combo well, they aren't all clamouring for the same buffs that way

I think where im most concerned my skaven fall down is going up against other competently shooty lists, our shooting units apart from fiends just dont do attrition well as we know, have you played many shooty armies?

True, they do combo well, I just tend to have better luck with Jezzails.. that 4 DW list is really just for fun but I wanted to have Acolytes in there for something that can actually delete things that DW's or WLC's can't.

But yeah, I agree on our bad matchups.. with all the shooting combined with superior mobility\range that's been introduced with CoS, Tzeentch, Seraphon and Lumineth we really fit in best against combat armies who need to come to us and our short-range guns (barring Jezzails\WLC's obviously) that are hiding behind Clanrats, if you're playing purely ranged at least. All the above shooting\magic armies will just target whatever they want and remove it before it can do anything. That can be partially solved with the Bridge still, but with the biggest damage coming from 12" shots with that method then most opponents aren't going to leave you with anything they care about when it comes to target selection. The Bridge works best against things that are already halfway up the board and\or when you want to go big on a double turn.

I have my 4 DW + 40 Acolytes list and this one I've been thinking of trying since all I can do is make meme lists after the last 2 unsuccessful weekend tournaments:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Skaventide

Leaders
Arch-Warlock (160)
- General
- Command Trait: Deranged Inventor
- Artefact: Vigordust Injector
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Warlock Bombardier (120)
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!

Battleline
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade

Units
20 x Skryre Acolytes (200)

Artillery
12 x Warplock Jezzails (560)
12 x Warplock Jezzails (560)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Bell of Doom (40)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 139

Alternatively, drop the Acolytes for 40-60 more Clanrats (60 would mean no Bell though).


Oh, and @Kramer,  the best thing about AoS reminders is that you can actually play an army you've never played before on TTS and just act like you're an expert by taking overly long sips of your drink while you read what you're supposed to do in that phase on your other monitor 😉

Edited July 28, 2020 by Gwendar

[Kramer]

8 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

and @Kramer,  the best thing about AoS reminders is that you can actually play an army you've never played before on TTS and just act like you're an expert by taking overly long sips of your drink while you read what you're supposed to do in that phase on your other monitor

Haha I do random measurements while reading. I once measured the row of dice on the table. Just to hide me checking what inspiring presence did  

threw my opponent of like you wouldn’t believe. 

Edited July 28, 2020 by Kramer

[Skreech Verminking]

15 hours ago, Verminlord said:

Had some time to revisit my lists now that the dust has settled a bit. Very happy about the stormvermin decrease. I feel like our engineers had no reason to increase. They're so fragile, especially in the new shooting/magic meta.

List 1 is my pure glass cannon list. Min battleline and as much firepower as I can get. I could go with stormvermin instead as BL but then it starts to get really difficult to screen a t1 charge. I've run this against slaanesh wish good results. My biggest fear is other shooting armies.

  Reveal hidden contents

Allegiance: Skaventide

Leaders
Warlock Bombardier (120)
- General
- Command Trait: Deranged Inventor
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Warlock Engineer (110)
- Artefact: Vigordust Injector
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: Warp Lightning Shield
Warlock Engineer (110)
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!

Battleline
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade

Units
6 x Stormfiends (520)

Artillery
9 x Warplock Jezzails (420)
Warp Lightning Cannon (180)
Warp Lightning Cannon (180)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 145
 

List 2 is all about flooding the board and playing the tempo game.  Not very punchy but tons of battleshock immune bodies. Warpgrinders are criminally underused imo. A unit of 40 clanrats and the SV will dig. I'll skitterleap the clawlord on the turn I want my stormvermin coming out and save CP for reroll charge and +1 attacks. Hopefully take out w/e horde killing unit or key hammer unit they have. The 40 clanrats digging could be used to screen those SV that just came out or wait until late game when my Frontline is starting to dwindle. If I get a verminlord from the bell ( maybe once every 4 games) I'll be summoning the warbringer for double death frenzy and the like. Movement trays are my friend with this many bodies. 🐀🐀🐀

  Hide contents

Allegiance: Skaventide

Leaders
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)
- General
- Command Trait: Master of Magic
- Lore of Ruin: Death Frenzy
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)
- Artefact: Skavenbrew
- Lore of Ruin: Skitterleap
Clawlord (100)
- Mighty Warlord Command Trait: Verminous Valour

Battleline
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Spear
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Spear
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Stormvermin (400)
- Halberd

Units
1 x Warp-Grinder (80)
1 x Warp-Grinder (80)

Total: 1940 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 237
 

 

I like this list a lot.

although, have you considered dropping the extra cp and a unit of clanrats for 40plague monks?

they do so much damage and with Their counterparts the Stormvermins, they can be a real thread on the table, especially, when your putting both of them into warpgrinders.

ps: Plague monks also get a +1 to the charge rolls, so you basically have to get an 8 to get into combat through a warp grinder.

As for summoning a verminlord, if your lucky then yes you will summon one in the near future, if your unlucky, you won’t even summon him after 13games.

[Laststand]

1 hour ago, Skreech Verminking said:

As for summoning a verminlord, if your lucky then yes you will summon one in the near future, if your unlucky, you won’t even summon him after 13games

I have never managed it! 

Separately what do people feel about min sized rat ogre units babysitting clan rats. 

I have had success with units of 6 but just thinking that 2 could provide a cheap secondary threat that might make non monster heroes think twice about charging, block with their big bases or help to reduce an attacking unit down so that the clan rats still have numbers to hold the objective. 

Edited July 29, 2020 by Laststand
typo

[Skreech Verminking]

2 hours ago, Laststand said:

I have never managed it! 

Nor have I.

But then again, I never used more then 1Screaming bell in my army, since the Battletome drop.

which is pribably a mistake considering that I own 6 of them 

[Blisterfeet]

3 hours ago, Laststand said:

I have never managed it! 

Separately what do people feel about min sized rat ogre units babysitting clan rats. 

I have had success with units of 6 but just thinking that 2 could provide a cheap secondary threat that might make non monster heroes think twice about charging, block with their big bases or help to reduce an attacking unit down so that the clan rats still have numbers to hold the objective. 

Allegiance: Skaventide

Leaders
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)
Plague Priest on Plague Furnace (200)
Verminlord Warbringer (280)

Battleline
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Spear
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Spear
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Spear

Units
2 x Rat Ogors (90)
2 x Rat Ogors (90)
2 x Rat Ogors (90)
40 x Plague Monks (280)
- Foetid Blades
- 2x Standard Bearers
- 2x Plague Harbingers
40 x Plague Monks (280)
- Foetid Blades
- 2x Standard Bearers
- 2x Plague Harbingers
1 x Warp-Grinder (80)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 205
 

@Laststand like this you mean. If you don't want the warp grinder you could just run 20 more wounds and make the clanrats 40 blob 🤣

[Laststand]

3 hours ago, Blisterfeet said:

Allegiance: Skaventide

Leaders
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)
Plague Priest on Plague Furnace (200)
Verminlord Warbringer (280)

Battleline
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Spear
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Spear
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Spear

Units
2 x Rat Ogors (90)
2 x Rat Ogors (90)
2 x Rat Ogors (90)
40 x Plague Monks (280)
- Foetid Blades
- 2x Standard Bearers
- 2x Plague Harbingers
40 x Plague Monks (280)
- Foetid Blades
- 2x Standard Bearers
- 2x Plague Harbingers
1 x Warp-Grinder (80)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 205
 

@Laststand like this you mean. If you don't want the warp grinder you could just run 20 more wounds and make the clanrats 40 blob 🤣

Maybe with a few less bodies but that looks fun! 

[Verminlord]

5 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Nor have I.

But then again, I never used more then 1Screaming bell in my army, since the Battletome drop.

which is pribably a mistake considering that I own 6 of them 

I got it once at two different tournaments in a double bell list when the tome had just come out and probably 3 times since that. I do play a lot of games though. It's a wonderful feeling, though a few of them summoned on too late in the game to matter.

Try out multiple bells, it's a lot of fun.

[Verminlord]

7 hours ago, Laststand said:

I have never managed it! 

Separately what do people feel about min sized rat ogre units babysitting clan rats. 

I have had success with units of 6 but just thinking that 2 could provide a cheap secondary threat that might make non monster heroes think twice about charging, block with their big bases or help to reduce an attacking unit down so that the clan rats still have numbers to hold the objective. 

I think 2 are too inconsistent to be worth it. I would run a minimum of 4 and always with packmaster support. Try 4 with a packmaster screened by 20 clanrats.

[Num]

@Gwendar Reading pour battreps (thanks by the way!), I had the feeling that stormvermins underperformed both times and acted just like a premium bag of wounds.

Isn't it time to bring the stormfiends back? They can put up a rough fight and survive. Or with a melee loadout (2* warpfire) to make them less dependent on buffs?

Or 8 rat ogors. They don't require a lot of babysitting (from 10dmg (2+) to 32 (6+) on their own) but if there is one master moulder/packmaster nearby, the damage can increase significantly... (Rabid crown + whip = from 17dmg(2+) to over 50 (6+))

I think that unbuffed, rat ogors perform better than stormfiends.

 

Edited July 30, 2020 by Num

[Cosmicsheep]

1 hour ago, Num said:

Or 8 rat ogors.  They don't require a lot of babysitting

I'm a big fan of rat ogors for exactly that reason. I find that rat ogors are more focused than stormfiends. They're a melee unit whereas stormfiends tend to be a mixed bag of long range / mid range / melee. A "jack of all trades, master of none" kind of unit.

For 260/270 points i think 6 rat ogors (unbuffed) are putting out more damage  vs 3 stormfiends (unbuffed)

Add in an engineer with vigordust + MMWP / master moulder with rabid crown and yes, the stormfiend damage increases much more than the rat ogors but that's dependent on spells going off, and you're causing yourself damage in the process

[gronnelg]

Our cheapst screen are giant rats. Does anyone use them?

[Nikobot]

Tend to play skaventide and clanrats get that honour usually as they fill battleline too. If additional chaff needed, possible option is night runners for the pregame movement.

[Cosmicsheep]

1 hour ago, gronnelg said:

Our cheapst screen are giant rats. Does anyone use them?

Only in a pure moulder list.... and technically 40 giant rats are the same points as 40 clanrats (which i always found a little unfair) but you can take giant rats in a unit of 10 if you're looking for a wafer thin screen

 

[gronnelg]

@Nikobot @Cosmicsheep Yeah, sorry I meant to say in units of 10. Clanrats are clearly superioder otherwise. 
And yeah, I think I would also favor night runners over giant rats. They are more expensive though. So I wonder, does anyone out there use giant rats?

[Nikobot]

the mentioned units tend to fill the role of screening i.e. clanrats x20 etc, and i tend to not build lists with even more screens than 3x20 clanrats + 1-2 units of night runners. But 10 strong rat units are a good speed bump, they do a good job at that.

[Gwendar]

5 hours ago, Num said:

@Gwendar Reading pour battreps (thanks by the way!), I had the feeling that stormvermins underperformed both times and acted just like a premium bag of wounds.

Isn't it time to bring the stormfiends back? They can put up a rough fight and survive. Or with a melee loadout (2* warpfire) to make them less dependent on buffs?

Or 8 rat ogors. They don't require a lot of babysitting (from 10dmg (2+) to 32 (6+) on their own) but if there is one master moulder/packmaster nearby, the damage can increase significantly... (Rabid crown + whip = from 17dmg(2+) to over 50 (6+))

I think that unbuffed, rat ogors perform better than stormfiends.

 

Thanks! I had that feeling too but I mean.. I can admit I didn't use them as well as I could have. They were often out of range of +1 attack after they charged which is what elevates them above Monks in my opinion. The fact that I felt like I had to keep them back multiple turns because Death Frenzy would absolutely not go off hurt them as well. I may give them another chance in a Double DF list with a Warbringer, but outside that I still think they're overcosted compared to just running Monks.. hell, I would even consider running 2 HPA's over them.

Funny you mention that about Fiends though.. had some more Discord discussion last night. I think I'll be giving 2x6 Stormfiends a shot, honestly. No matter what we're always going to have issues with things like Kroak and Tzeentch wiping heroes off the board easily, but against anything else? Man.. they would shred. Even if you're careful with T1 movement and using Bridge then you can give those armies a run for their money. If you count the damage in melee as well then 6 Fiends (Shock Gauntlets) can easily be putting out ~70 damage vs a 4+ with all 3 buffs. Even buffed with just Deranged and a Spark, you're looking at ~50 damage.

As for Rat Ogres.. I would've like to have seen them at 70-80 points, but that isn't to say they're bad at all. Completely unbuffed Fiends vs unbuffed Rat Ogres (including the Fiends in melee with Shock Gauntlets) is actually the same damage on average (20). Giving them +1 to hit brings them up by about 5 which isn't huge, but being able to counter all of the -1 to hit running around is useful. I really like the thought of them, it's just that I keep coming back to 40 Monks. They're cheaper than 8 Rat Ogres and will put out more damage until they drop below 30.

All that said, sitting here for the last 30 minutes practicing mathhammer has led me to the following. Fiends don't get hurt too much from losing that +1 to hit from Vigordust so long as they still get MMMWP (and even with just Deranged + Spark they get ~50 damage vs 4+) and Rabid Crown boosts Rat Ogre damage by a decent amount. I think you can really make the two work together:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Skaventide

Leaders
Warlock Bombardier (120)
- General
- Command Trait: Deranged Inventor
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Warlock Bombardier (120)
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Master Moulder (100)
- Artefact: Rabid Crown

Battleline
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade

Units
6 x Stormfiends (520)
- 2x Windlaunchers
- 2x Ratling Cannons
- 2x Shock Gauntlets
8 x Rat Ogors (360)

Artillery
6 x Warplock Jezzails (280)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Bell of Doom (40)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 175

Now.. the next question is what would be better; 8 Rat Ogres + MM or 2 HPA's? Average damage say's the HPA's, but 2d6" movement and being heavily bracketed can change that real quick. Best against hordes as you can get a lot of bases within 3" and re-rolling those MW dice on the charge means they can do a ton of impact damage, unlike the Rat Ogres. They also ignore spells on a 4+ which is nice, as well as potentially coming back to life and keeping a unit tied up another turn.

[Cosmicsheep]

6 hours ago, Gwendar said:

as well as potentially coming back to life and keeping a unit tied up another turn.

Don’t underestimate the master Moulder ability to bring back the unit of 8 rat ogors on a 5+ 😁

[Gwendar]

4 minutes ago, Cosmicsheep said:

Don’t underestimate the master Moulder ability to bring back the unit of 8 rat ogors on a 5+ 😁

Oh I don't, but the HPA one is free, even if they don't come back at full strength 😉

[Kramer]

7 hours ago, gronnelg said:

@Nikobot @Cosmicsheep Yeah, sorry I meant to say in units of 10. Clanrats are clearly superioder otherwise. 
And yeah, I think I would also favor night runners over giant rats. They are more expensive though. So I wonder, does anyone out there use giant rats?

In moulder list I did right after the book dropped. They actually surprised me in a big unit. It’s just such a swarm. And on top of the normal bonuses the range increase for numbers means you get a lot in as well. 
especially if you manage to buff them from a master moulder and even death frenzy. it’s pretty doable to get the to 

“3  range, 1 attack, 2+, 4+, -, 1 damage. Re-rolling wounds if rabid crown is near...

Quite impressive, super thematic, not at all points efficient especially outside of a clan moulder army. 

all that said its been a minute since I played Skaven. But the itch is back 💪🐀
 

[Arzalyn]

Hi Everyone! I recently started Skaven with some second-hand models/3d printed proxys and i'm looking to turn it all into a functional list. So far I have the following list:
 

Spoiler

Allegiance: Skaventide

Leaders
Grey Seer (140)
Warlock Engineer (110)

Battleline
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Spear
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Spear
40 x Stormvermin (400)
- Halberd

Units
1 x Doomwheel (150)
20 x Skryre Acolytes (200)

Total: 1240 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 118
 

Looking at other lists on the last pages most unities seens usable (maybe the greyseer/doomwhell not so much), Im' looking to get at the 1500 points range. I thought of some options:

-Clawlord to buff the vermins
-Deathmaster+10 Gutter Runners, for some extra deepstrike
-Verminlord Warbringer/Warpseer (droping some acolytes) for utility
-Jezzails, in place of the Doomwheel

Any other sugestion? I'm okay droping a unit or two for something that works better

Edited July 31, 2020 by Arzalyn

[Cosmicsheep]

11 hours ago, Arzalyn said:

-Jezzails, in place of the Doomwheel

Jezzails are popular, and if you're on a budget can be made from old clanrats and Skitarii Ranger rifles (a few quid on eBay)

See my previous post (page 147) for a picture of how they look

 

11 hours ago, Arzalyn said:

-Clawlord to buff the fiends

Assume you're talking about the stormvermin, but yes that would take advantage of their fighting prowess