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I've been playing Skaven for a while. They were my first army in AoS (I've been playing and collecting for about a year but only really got playing regularly in December) and I love them, but I've grown rather frustrated with a few parts of the roster. After trying perhaps a few too many times to figure them out, I figured it was time to ask people who are much better than I am.  I love the listbuilding theory and finding the proper balance for various lists in Skaven, but actually playing them I'm finding is very difficult. Primarily, using Clanrats to the best effect. Obviously, you're not trying to put them toe-to-toe with other infantry in the hopes of winning that engagement. However, I find that they cannot be a meatshield or screen. When a lot of what we're protecting is fragile units like Jezzails, and 40 rats evaporate in a single turn, it's becoming less of screen and more of a tax. It just seems like the unit is incapable of fulfilling it's purpose. I'm willing to believe a lot of this is poor positioning on my part, since positioning with Skaven is one of the most important parts of playing them, and admittedly the weakest part of my play.  Am I doing something wrong? I saw earlier someone say Clanrats are in a great spot and I can't help but disagree, but that is most likely my inexperience and poor play talking.

Edited by CavalryWolfPack
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2 hours ago, CavalryWolfPack said:

However, I find that they cannot be a meatshield or screen. When a lot of what we're protecting is fragile units like Jezzails, and 40 rats evaporate in a single turn, it's becoming less of screen and more of a tax.

It just seems like the unit is incapable of fulfilling it's purpose.

positioning with Skaven is one of the most important parts of playing them, and admittedly the weakest part of my play.

I think this is where proper pre-measurement of your opponents threat ranges and deployment as a whole comes into play. 40 Clanrats are some of the best objective snatchers and anchors in the game for their price. I think 20 of them as tax fits better into the 1-turn meatshield role, however.

With 40 of them, you can quite easily string them out to deny board space, or force your opponent into moving a certain way (think killing zones), more or less. I think you need to start viewing them not as meatshields in larger units, but as what I stated above; objective snatchers and anchors. Now, when I say anchor, I don't mean a wall that is going to stick around for 2+ turns like 30 Phoenix guard or 20 Hearthguard Berserkers (who are both also very killy, unlike Clanrats). I mean that with Retreat + charge they can keep a hammer unit in combat for longer than they want to be by you simply tagging the unit. Once they pile in, they'll kill some Clanrats, sure, but likely not all of them.. and you now have a few options:

  1. Retreat + charge right back into them, reforming your line and ensuring the minimal amount of the tagged unit is able to hit you in combat keeping them held up longer.
  2. Retreat + charge another unit that's on an objective and do the same thing. 
  3. Run + retreat wherever needed as Clanrats have a 14" move if you auto-run them 6" with a CP


To pull any of this off, you need to understand positioning and of course think ahead of where you want them to be next turn and where your hammers are to clean up what they're holding up. Having BS immunity is also 100% necessary.. whether that's from a Warpseer or a Bell of Doom is up to you. I don't think a Screaming Bell is good in this scenario as it forces you to keep a blob of Clanrats nearby rather than strung along. I think one weakness is against heavy shooting\magic armies, but then again that seems to be everyone's weakness in the current meta, so I don't really hold value there anyway.

It's hard to explain.. I think it's something you need to see to try to understand so here's 2 videos (both Dan Brewer) which give's some wonderful insight into how this is done:

Spoiler


And a battle report showcasing more Clanrat tactics:

 

 

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49 minutes ago, CavalryWolfPack said:

Yeah I see what you mean now. Thanks for the help! I've been eyeing Bell of Doom recently, and being less clunky than a Screaming Bell is pretty nice. I'll take one in my next game and see how it goes.

Yep, for it's cost it's good to have if you're running 80+ Clanrats I feel.. although it won't protect you against any T1 charges like a Bell would.

Of course, in that scenario I think you'll find you messed up deployment or those Clanrats were doomed no matter what.

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So tonight I played against KO at 1500 points. I decided to try a non shooty list because I've always been outgunned by KO. 

Here's what I ran: 

Spoiler

LEADERS
Verminlord Warpseer (320) 
- Artefact : Suspicious Stone
Skaven Clawlord on Brood Horror (160) 
- General
- Mighty Warlord Command Trait : Verminous Valour
UNITS 
20 x Clanrats (120) 
- Rusty Blade
- 1 x Standard Bearers
- 1 x Standard Bell Ringers
20 x Clanrats (120) 
- Rusty Blade
- 1 x Standard Bearers
- 1 x Standard Bell Ringers
1 x Warp-Grinder (80) 
40 x Plague Monks (280) 
- Woe-stave
- 4 x Standard Bearers
- 4 x Plague Harbingers
ARTILLERY 
Warplock Jezzails (420) 

The KO player went first, used fly high and took out my Jezzails and 10 clan rats.

On my  first turn, my Warpseer took out a Gunhauler. I brought out the Monks and WG near an objective and failed my charge to get onto it. 

He won the next priority roll and went next. He flew high and then took out 28 Monks with shooting and I lost the remainder to Battleshock. 

So, I know that the Monks needed some kind of support (a hero would have been nice to pass battleshock), but not sure what would work. A Grey Seer and something to Skitterleap? Swap the Warpseer for a Deceiver and send the Clawlord along? 

Any other advice for handling KO? I tried to protect my backline (failed with the Jezzails, kept the Deceiver and Clawlord fine), but the range on those ships is brutal. 

Also, Warscroll Builder says that the Skaven Clawlord on Brood Horror is 160, Azyr says 180. Which is right? I don't see it listed in the Errata. 

Thanks!

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2 hours ago, jaWn said:

So tonight I played against KO at 1500 points. I decided to try a non shooty list because I've always been outgunned by KO. 

Here's what I ran: 

  Hide contents

LEADERS
Verminlord Warpseer (320) 
- Artefact : Suspicious Stone
Skaven Clawlord on Brood Horror (160) 
- General
- Mighty Warlord Command Trait : Verminous Valour
UNITS 
20 x Clanrats (120) 
- Rusty Blade
- 1 x Standard Bearers
- 1 x Standard Bell Ringers
20 x Clanrats (120) 
- Rusty Blade
- 1 x Standard Bearers
- 1 x Standard Bell Ringers
1 x Warp-Grinder (80) 
40 x Plague Monks (280) 
- Woe-stave
- 4 x Standard Bearers
- 4 x Plague Harbingers
ARTILLERY 
Warplock Jezzails (420) 

The KO player went first, used fly high and took out my Jezzails and 10 clan rats.

On my  first turn, my Warpseer took out a Gunhauler. I brought out the Monks and WG near an objective and failed my charge to get onto it. 

He won the next priority roll and went next. He flew high and then took out 28 Monks with shooting and I lost the remainder to Battleshock. 

So, I know that the Monks needed some kind of support (a hero would have been nice to pass battleshock), but not sure what would work. A Grey Seer and something to Skitterleap? Swap the Warpseer for a Deceiver and send the Clawlord along? 

Any other advice for handling KO? I tried to protect my backline (failed with the Jezzails, kept the Deceiver and Clawlord fine), but the range on those ships is brutal. 

Also, Warscroll Builder says that the Skaven Clawlord on Brood Horror is 160, Azyr says 180. Which is right? I don't see it listed in the Errata. 

Thanks!

You had a Warpseer:/ the ultimate BS immunity tool. Should have saved the CP for the monks if you wanted to keep some around. Monks hugging a bell also helps.
What I would try out tho is the bell endless spell, BS immunity for any unit within 13", not wholly, so 1 pesty rat can be within with the tip of the base, and your immune, costs 40 points.

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@jaWnAlso keep in mind that when the monks pop up they need a 9" charge, which is about 27% probability I believe. Even with reroll it's around 50%. So if the monks charge is essential in you list (and they are you main hammer unit) setting them up to fail either half the time (with reroll) or 3/4 of the time (without reroll) is going to lose you a lot of games.  You could ditch the warp grinder, and bump a unit of clanrats up to 40. That might make it easier to screen the jezzails.  And making a juicer target for the brood horrors +1 attack, if the clanrats do not get targeted. 

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4 hours ago, Darkhan said:

You had a Warpseer:/ the ultimate BS immunity tool. Should have saved the CP for the monks if you wanted to keep some around. Monks hugging a bell also helps.
What I would try out tho is the bell endless spell, BS immunity for any unit within 13", not wholly, so 1 pesty rat can be within with the tip of the base, and your immune, costs 40 points.

Well, I'm a dummy. I was thinking that the "Forth-forth, Children" ability was on the Clawlord, not the Warpseer. That's a huge mistake. :)

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2 hours ago, gronnelg said:

@jaWnAlso keep in mind that when the monks pop up they need a 9" charge, which is about 27% probability I believe. Even with reroll it's around 50%. So if the monks charge is essential in you list (and they are you main hammer unit) setting them up to fail either half the time (with reroll) or 3/4 of the time (without reroll) is going to lose you a lot of games.  You could ditch the warp grinder, and bump a unit of clanrats up to 40. That might make it easier to screen the jezzails.  And making a juicer target for the brood horrors +1 attack, if the clanrats do not get targeted. 

They have a 1+ to charge;) Details details;p
 

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On 5/15/2020 at 10:25 AM, Darkhan said:

Any other advice for handling KO? I tried to protect my backline (failed with the Jezzails, kept the Deceiver and Clawlord fine), but the range on those ships is brutal. 

 

I play against a KO player a lot, and he runs 2 battalions and always has the first turn. With fly high he can put his Frigate and Ironclad 9” away from my lines. My new tactic  (when we’re allowed to go out and play again) will be to run a unit of 10 night runners which will advance 2D6” before his turn and hopefully put some of his mid range guns out of range 😀

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@Cosmicsheep I think that's about the best defense we have against it, although the big guns can still be in range to pop something unless you roll quite high on that 2d6"

Hell, the thing I hate about them most isn't that their shooting\mobility is good, it's that they can make use of WLV better than we can most of the time 😉

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@Gwendar yeah, I saw a KO list on the honest wargamer with the WLV that confused me at first, until I read the rules for the artefact.

With a 12” deployment zone, and an average 7” move for the NR, the KO dropping 9” away should leave only the 30” guns in range. I have 12 jezzails that would have something to respond with 😬

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54 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

@Cosmicsheep I think that's about the best defense we have against it, although the big guns can still be in range to pop something unless you roll quite high on that 2d6"

Hell, the thing I hate about them most isn't that their shooting\mobility is good, it's that they can make use of WLV better than we can most of the time 😉

Although they seem to be debating that the comet might be a better steal then the vortex

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1 hour ago, Cosmicsheep said:

@Gwendar yeah, I saw a KO list on the honest wargamer with the WLV that confused me at first, until I read the rules for the artefact.

With a 12” deployment zone, and an average 7” move for the NR, the KO dropping 9” away should leave only the 30” guns in range. I have 12 jezzails that would have something to respond with 😬

True, I would just hope they don't use that 30" range to take out those Jezzails; especially if it's T1 and you're without a CP to make them stay put if they kill 2 or more of them.

 

1 hour ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Although they seem to be debating that the comet might be a better steal then the vortex

They have quite a few options that work well honestly. Darkfire Daemonrift has been a popular choice lately with all the HH, Seraphon and Tzeentch running around.. probably will continue to be the case with Lumineth. There's also a combo with WLV + Comet by taking an allied SC Wizard, but I think that's more gimmicky than something that would work well in tournaments. 

Edited by Gwendar
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Anyone thought of running a Verminlord list in Legion of Chaos Ascendant? Sounds really cheeky. It is not pure Skaven at all, but looks interesting if you start digging into it. Verminlord and pinks, who would've thought😂

I just tossed up a fast list, but it is kind of hilarious:

1x Verminlord corruptor (Fourfold blade)

1x Verminlord Deceiver

1x Vermindlord Warpseer

1x Gaunt Summoner

1x Gaunt Summoner on disc

3x10 Daemonettes

Endless spells:

Pendulum.

WLV.

Darkfire Daemonrift.

Vermintide.

This is probably not optional at all. The two gaunts lets you summon 20 pinks for free. Also the undying legions battletrait:

Undying Legions: At the end of each movement phase, one Chaos Ascendant Daemon Hero can summon 10 Bloodletters, Daemonettes, Plaguebearers, or Pink Horrors based on the hero's mark, wholly within 12" on 10+ roll on a 3d6, but hero takes 1MW on doubles and D3 on Triples.

 

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35 minutes ago, Darkhan said:

Anyone thought of running a Verminlord list in Legion of Chaos Ascendant?

I've been heavily considering it for quite awhile now, but with the recent string of the allegiance doing quite well in TTS tournaments has solidified that choice... though I really only want to run 1 VL. A Corruptor with Fearfold Blade is just a better version of one with a SoJ in my opinion. I think running  what you have is nice, but yeah there are more "optimal" choices.. but this is the Skaventide thread after all 😉

Many run Kairos (his power level for 400 points is incredible and he fits in perfectly to this type of list), but after that is where it varies it bit. The goal altogether is attrition with free Pinks and everything having a 6+ FNP (or 5+ with the Aura) from the Gaunt's warscroll spell and Legions.. it's kind of absurd really, being able to throw out 50 wounds a turn really. The better this allegiance becomes in the tournament scene, the quicker I see it getting changed. Perhaps only rolling 2d6 and needing a 10+ to get the summon? It's quite the anti-meta altogether, and playing reactively with an attrition based list is definitely my style.

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So I had a little squeak-talk with a buddy if mine, who really liked to go with his skaven onto tournaments before the covid-19 epidemic.

we mostly talked about the skaven in the events and I well asked him what he thought might work greatly in our favor against the meta we might be seeing soon.

His answer wasn’t really what I was hoping to get, since it somewhat ended in him explaining to me why Seraphon do everything the skaven do, just better.

in the end he told me that the skaven are more or less a dead faction when it comes to tournament play.

So I thought exchanging some ideas and bringing our hopes back up might not be a bad Idea.

and since I started with all of that, I can tell you guys this much.

skaven will be rising up soon again.

people are literally forgetting that we exist, something we really can use as an advantage.

And army consisting of units that your foe has literally no knowledge of will let him struggle a lot.

they will start to shoot down what they think might be an extremely dangerous units, while leaving anything else that could and can be threat to them alive.

bringing lists that have literally never seen the table might now actually become an incredible choice for our army, and we have a ton of units that are potential damage dealers, but never saw the table because other options just where somewhat better or their points were just at a to extreme level of cost

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2 hours ago, Darkhan said:

Im curious what builds you have in mind @Skreech Verminking😜

Well one of my lists looks something like this right now:

Allegiance: Skaventide
- Mortal Realm: Chamon
LEADERS
Skarn, engineer of Dooooom!! (120)
Warlock Bombardier
- General
- Command Trait : Deranged Inventor
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism : More-more-more Warp Power!
Snag an gruk (120)
Warlock Bombardier
- Artefact : Vial of the Fulminator
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism : More-more-more Warp Power!
disciples of Skarn (120)
Warlock Bombardier
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism : More-more-more Warp Power!
UNITS
Shreeks mighty vermins (200)
40 x Clanrats - Rusty Blade
The black furred gnawers of the deep warrens (200)
40 x Clanrats - Rusty Blade
The backstabbing backstabbers (200)
40 x Clanrats - Rusty Blade
Stalkers of galgatresh (80)
10 x Night Runners
The mysterious mystery (80)
10 x Night Runners
Skarns miserable experiments (240)
20 x Skryre Acolytes
The deathvermins (240)
20 x Skryre Acolytes
The wheels of Doom (160)
1 x Doomwheel
The Messenger of Dooooooooooom!!! (160)
1 x Doomwheel
ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN / COMMAND POINTS
   Bell of Doom (40) Vermintide (40)
 TOTAL: 2000/2000 EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 0 WOUNDS: 211
LEADERS: 3/6 BATTLELINES: 3 (3+) BEHEMOTHS: 2/4 ARTILLERY: 0/4 ARTEFACTS: 1/1 ALLIES: 0/400

although I’m really not sure if I’d consider dropping, vermintide and bith doomwheels for some heavy shooting and mortal wound output from two warplightning cannons, or just exhcange all of those things plus a unit of 20 clanrats and a bombardier for 9Jezzails and a grey seer with warpgale.

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I don't know that I agree we're a dead faction in the tournament scene. We certainly need to adapt and probably get over the 100% "need" to bring 6 Fiends and all that, that's for sure... but the issue is that while we have a lot of units available, most of them simply aren't good. You just can't buff Rat Ogres, Monks or Gutter Runners to achieve anywhere near the damage numbers capable like you can with Skryre. It's all cheaper, sure.. but is that enough?

There is definitely some level of unexpectedness when it comes to bringing lesser known factions to the table.. I mean, just look at how well Chaos Legion Ascendant is doing all of a sudden. Until we get other units buffed or points drastically reduced then I don't think much is going to change. Every army has good and bad matchups.. but it seems to me that more and more are becoming bad one's for us. We still are quite good at hero sniping (and hence why I've leaned more towards 2 WLC's over 9 Jezzails) which things like Seraphon rely on.. but they have their own ways to out-range or out-gun us.

I like the list idea though.. I've put more trust in Doomwheels lately; it's just things like Acolytes that I struggle with due to the large footprint and reliance on a single spell going off in a game that has made it increasingly hard to get things off successfully (Seraphon, Tzeentch, HH, Lumineth potentially... etc). The amount of things that can 1-shot those Acolytes or 40 Clanrats or out-attrition is on objectives just feels bad.

I dunno, weird day today.. sorry for being bleak. I'm going to eat lunch and my mind may change. 😉

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19 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

I dunno, weird day today.. sorry for being bleak. I'm going to eat lunch and my mind may change. 😉

No problem mate.

any comment on the upper list is welcome.

I’m after all just trying to get my list up and running and if possible surprise and outplay the better faction with cunningness.

and what better way then to ask my fellow skaven companions

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2 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

No problem mate.

any comment on the upper list is welcome.

I’m after all just trying to get my list up and running and if possible surprise and outplay the better faction with cunningness.

and what better way then to ask my fellow skaven companions

No no, I don't think there's anything wrong with it.. honestly it's nice to see something different than what we're used to. It's always best to think anti meta and what can counter that. It's just difficult when many things (like Seraphon, HH, Tzeentch) can blast things like the Acolytes off the table before they can really act. Having 120 Clanrats will certainly keep you up on the objective game which is obviously how this game is won after all... master them and many people will underestimate what they can do.

At the same time, quite a lot of units can crash into them and wipe them. I think it will depend on who gets the double turn but I mean.. that's largely my biggest issue with the game anyway; not overly strong units that can 1-shot other units.

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3 hours ago, Gwendar said:

You just can't buff Rat Ogres.... to achieve anywhere near the damage numbers capable like you can with Skryre

I would somewhat disagree with this. I think Rat Ogres are one of our most under estimated units. Throw in a unit of packmasters or a Master Moulder to double their bravery and give a +1 to hit and they cause a lot of damage for their price point. A MM with the rabid crown is great too, although I normally reserve that for the giant rats, and the chance of bringing back a unit after death on a 5+ can often turn a game around.

Edited by Cosmicsheep
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