AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion

[gronnelg]

11 hours ago, Icefighter said:

Hey, im thinking about going with a list based on 60 clan rats, arch-warlock, clawlord, 3 stormfiends as a starting point. Is something like this viable? And any ideas how to expand it. Aiming to reach 1500-2000p.

IMO the clawlord primary function is to give +1 attack to either clanrats or stormvermin. Preferably stormvermin (who are too expensive to use). So I would drop the clawlord, unless it's for rule of cool. 
If you go stormfiends I would rather go 6, so that go can buff them, and make them a proper threat. The arch-warlock to buff the fiends is fine though, and 3x20 clanrats is also a good starting point. Though some list want 40 20 20, or even 40 40 20. 
 

Typically with list you want 2 or more threats. 6 buffed stormfiends would be one such threat. Them you could add another threat in the form of 40 plague monks, or a hell pit abomination, 40 stormvermin (and then include the clawlord). Or you could add ranged threat, either in the form of 6-9 jezzails, or 1-2 warp lightning cannons, preferably with and engineer to buff them.
Battleshock immunity is also great, so either the screaming bell or the verminlord warpseer. 
Absolutely get gnawholes if you don't have them, as they don't cost points. The warp lightning vortex endless spell is also worth looking into. 

 

8 hours ago, Malakhov said:

Yeah I will try for other combinations once I get more experience. Ive also found nice conversion kits for jezzails so im seriously considering getting those to add to what I have.

Jezzails are beasts! Do it! 
Edit: What are the conversions kits you've found? Also interested in getting jezzails

Edited March 18, 2020 by gronnelg

[Skreech Verminking]

So I’ve changed my tournament list a bit since my last devastating loss against flesh eaters list.

although I really am trying to get two units of 10 Night runners into my army to keep the rest of the army save for a turn, their points price of 160 really, hurts a lot and is mostly the problem why I have considered not taking them.

Plague monks are fantastic, although I’ve been playing them with foetid blades at a unit size of 40, which really makes live so much harder considering you really want, to get almost all in, to deal damage, so I exchanged  10 of them and the clawlord, which really never has done anything in his whole live for a grey seer with warpgale, a spell that  literally any alpha strike army will hate as hell.

so this is how my list looks like now:

Allegiance: Skaventide
LEADERS
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)
- General
- Command Trait : Master of Magic - Lore of Ruin : Warpgale
Grey Seer (140)
- Lore of Ruin : Death Frenzy
Warlock Bombardier (120)
- Artefact : Vial of the Fulminator
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism : More-more-more Warp Power!
UNITS
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Stormvermin (450)
- Halberd & Shield
30 x Plague Monks (240)
- Foetid Blades
1 x Doomwheel (160)
1 x Doomwheel (160)
1 x Doomwheel (160)
ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN / COMMAND POINTS Malevolent Maelstrom (10)
TOTAL: 2000/2000 EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 0 WOUNDS: 177
LEADERS: 3/6 BATTLELINES: 3 (3+) BEHEMOTHS: 4/4 ARTILLERY: 0/4 ARTEFACTS: 1/1 ALLIES: 0/400

Still going to keep those 40Stormvermins, I’m just such a big fan of them, even if they aren’t worth their points, but at least I’ll be surprising most of my opponents at the esc event, should it still be on.

[Malakhov]

31 minutes ago, gronnelg said:

Jezzails are beasts! Do it! 

Edit: What are the conversions kits you've found? Also interested in getting jezzails

The ones from battle bits, the gunrats bits.

 

Here

[gronnelg]

@Skreech Verminking Wow! 3 doomwheel? How do you find they work for you? Pretty awesome with that skryre artefact! Since you already have the stormvermin, how would you feel about dropping the monks entirely, and replacing them with.... Ranged threat? Or even Thanquol if you drop the monks and a doomwheel?

As form warpgale - do you really find it effective against alphastrike lists? I played FEC once. He went first and killed me. So warpgale wouldn't have made much of a difference. 

[Skreech Verminking]

1 hour ago, gronnelg said:

1)@Skreech Verminking Wow! 3 doomwheel? How do you find they work for you? Pretty awesome with that skryre artefact! Since you already have the stormvermin, how would you feel about dropping the monks entirely, and replacing them with.... Ranged threat? Or even Thanquol if you drop the monks and a doomwheel?

2)As form warpgale - do you really find it effective against alphastrike lists? I played FEC once. He went first and killed me. So warpgale wouldn't have made much of a difference. 

Well  It either works or just goes wrong entirely.

aand as for monks, I’m actually not that greatly interested in getting anything for range thread.

for a 240points you’ll be able to get around 6Hezzails or 4rattlings, which would probably be the better option.

having that much vor range isn’t bad but you’ll really want to invest a bit more into it, something I don’t have much points left for.

Having the option to use warpgale onto a terrorgheist will usually help you keep him for at least a turn away from your lines.

meaning a double turn of your opponent won’t hurt so much, as it would usually when he literally killed all of your frontline meat-shields, and now is targeting your heavy hitters.

 

[Malakhov]

I will actually get a box of skitarii Rangers and use the arquebuses to do a jezzail conversion. The international shipping kills that deal for the bits I've posted above.

 

I can do 9 jezzails that way, just not sure if it's worth to do that many. Is 6 more than enough with let's say 3 stormfiends or a wlc?

[Lazaris]

Fyi, there is only one arquebuse per box of skitarii, hence the price on bits shops. ^^

 

[Icefighter]

2 hours ago, gronnelg said:

IMO the clawlord primary function is to give +1 attack to either clanrats or stormvermin. Preferably stormvermin (who are too expensive to use). So I would drop the clawlord, unless it's for rule of cool. 
If you go stormfiends I would rather go 6, so that go can buff them, and make them a proper threat. The arch-warlock to buff the fiends is fine though, and 3x20 clanrats is also a good starting point. Though some list want 40 20 20, or even 40 40 20. 
 

Typically with list you want 2 or more threats. 6 buffed stormfiends would be one such threat. Them you could add another threat in the form of 40 plague monks, or a hell pit abomination, 40 stormvermin (and then include the clawlord). Or you could add ranged threat, either in the form of 6-9 jezzails, or 1-2 warp lightning cannons, preferably with and engineer to buff them.
Battleshock immunity is also great, so either the screaming bell or the verminlord warpseer. 
Absolutely get gnawholes if you don't have them, as they don't cost points. The warp lightning vortex endless spell is also worth looking into. 

 

Jezzails are beasts! Do it! 
Edit: What are the conversions kits you've found? Also interested in getting jezzails

Can you explain how the arch-warlock buffs the fiends? Also how the engineer would buff warp lightning cannons?

Anyways. List goes something like this now after your tips.

Arch-warlock

1(2?) warlock-engineer

60x clanrats

6x stormfiends

2x warp lightning cannon

screaming bell or the verminlord warpseer sounds cool to maybe include somehow also later on ..

[michu]

44 minutes ago, Lazaris said:

Fyi, there is only one arquebuse per box of skitarii, hence the price on bits shops. ^^

 

That's why I'm going to use Necron Deathmark rifles. And that box will give you bits to make 5 warpfire throwers (gauss blasters) and 5 ratling guns (tesla carbines).

[Gwendar]

2 hours ago, Malakhov said:

I can do 9 jezzails that way, just not sure if it's worth to do that many. Is 6 more than enough with let's say 3 stormfiends or a wlc?

For 2k no.. I can say you really want 1x9 Jezzails and 1x6 Fiends if you're going to use either one of them. 6 Jezzails on average won't even pop a support hero unbuffed (which, aside from a Spark you probably shouldn't be buffing them) and that isn't worth it to me, hence why 9 is generally considered the best number... or 12 if you want to go after bigger targets more reliably. Same with 6 Fiends; 3 just isn't doing anything at all and 6 is what is going to make them viable.

Under 2k? 6 Jezzails would be alright.. personally I wouldn't run with only 3 Fiends though.

1 hour ago, Icefighter said:

Can you explain how the arch-warlock buffs the fiends? Also how the engineer would buff warp lightning cannons?

Anyways. List goes something like this now after your tips.

Arch-warlock

1(2?) warlock-engineer

60x clanrats

6x stormfiends

2x warp lightning cannon

screaming bell or the verminlord warpseer sounds cool to maybe include somehow also later on ..

The AW, Bombardier and Engineer can all take More-More-More Warp Power (MMMWP) which lets a Skryre unit re-roll all hits and wounds. It's literally what makes Fiends and Acolytes so damaging.. if that spell doesn't go off you're losing a rather substantial amount of damage. Many will also take Deranged Inventor which lets a Skryre unit RR all hits; it's a good backup in case MMMWP doesn't go off.

For the WLC's, they can overcharge them to make them roll 12 dice instead of only 6 when firing; but for every 1 you roll it takes d6 MW's. Note that if you roll a 1 on power level, you still have to roll all 12 dice if you overcharge it to see if it hurts itself despite knowing that it automatically does 12 MW's. If you're running 2 WLC's, I would keep 2 Engineers which gives you 3 sources of MMMWP as redundancy and ability to stick with each WLC to buff it. Otherwise, 2 Engineers (or Engineer + AW) is generally enough. If you really want something dead, you should overcharge it 90% of the time.. this game is all about trades. If you trade a 180p unit for something that is buffing the hell out of your opponents army or is a threat to yours directly then it's generally worth trading even if it blows itself up afterwards.

[Gypsy_Pistolero]

1 hour ago, michu said:

That's why I'm going to use Necron Deathmark rifles. And that box will give you bits to make 5 warpfire throwers (gauss blasters) and 5 ratling guns (tesla carbines).

I was thinking of using deathmark rifles too be very interested to see how yours turn out, are you planning to extend them at all to make them longer? 

[michu]

6 minutes ago, Gypsy_Pistolero said:

I was thinking of using deathmark rifles too be very interested to see how yours turn out, are you planning to extend them at all to make them longer? 

No, I was planning a simple kitbash... are they that short?

[Gypsy_Pistolero]

10 minutes ago, michu said:

No, I was planning a simple kitbash... are they that short?

Don't think they are short but not aslong as the admech sniper people often use, been awhile since I played against necrons 

 

Was just curious really should look ace either way in my opinion 👍 

[Damprag]

Still list brewing before I invest in a competitive Skaven Horde, & having already had help previously narrowing down a list, I’ve got another heads up round of culling.  Still intend to play 2000pt ITC, & looking for criticism/critique.

List 1

Grey Seer on SB 

Plague Priest on Plague Furnace - General, Liber Bubonicus, Master of Rot & Ruin

120 Plague Monks (40, 40, 40) - Foetid Blade & Woe-stave

140 Clanrats (40, 40, 40, 20) - Rusty Blades

*Strategy for this list can be found in prior post; altered to make Plague Furnace General.  Can the Plague Furnace be General under the circumstances of this build; haven’t currently found an issue?  

List 2

Master Moulder - General, Hordemaster

Master Moulder - Rabid Crown

2 Hell Pit Abomination 

2 Pack Masters

240 Giant Rats (40, 40, 40, 40, 40, 40)

* List 2, is the new build.  Currently worried if there may be a deficit of Pack Masters/Leadership, but feeling great on the impact.  Can drop a Hell Pit Abomination, but what to include instead?  Found an alternate sculpt for the Giant Rats that I’m loving, so it spurred me to create.

I’ve bought some Seraphon, but am going to resell.  Can’t shake the betrayal of the Great Horned Rat.

Who doesn’t love seeing swarms of rats fighting, killing, & dying in droves!

[Gwendar]

6 minutes ago, Damprag said:

Still list brewing before I invest in a competitive Skaven Horde

I think based on the 2 ideas given, the Plague Monk one is the most reliably competitive in my opinion. The amount of bodies for objective control and the 3 units of Monks can handle a lot.. though you're going to struggle against anything with high saves (Fyreslayers, Stormcast, OBR, etc). The Moulder list would not perform particularly better in this case though, even with the 2 HPA's. And yes, you could roll those 5's to get unit's back but overall that isn't something you can count on; running the battalion would be best if that's your strategy. Skryre shooting builds with\without 40 Monks are still sitting at the top spot for us.

All I can say is either way, I hope you enjoy painting all that.. that's a nightmare come true for me 😉

[Cosmicsheep]

Just started working on my clanrat skitarii ranger jezzail conversion. Came out OK I think. 

Picked up 10 rifles from eBay for £7.50 👍

[The Red King]

Hmmm those rifles are longer than I thought. I like them.

[Malakhov]

10 hours ago, Lazaris said:

Fyi, there is only one arquebuse per box of skitarii, hence the price on bits shops. ^^

 

I will fiddle with the other rifles as well, they're not that shorter from the arquebuses 

8 hours ago, Gwendar said:

For 2k no.. I can say you really want 1x9 Jezzails and 1x6 Fiends if you're going to use either one of them. 6 Jezzails on average won't even pop a support hero unbuffed (which, aside from a Spark you probably shouldn't be buffing them) and that isn't worth it to me, hence why 9 is generally considered the best number... or 12 if you want to go after bigger targets more reliably. Same with 6 Fiends; 3 just isn't doing anything at all and 6 is what is going to make them viable.

Under 2k? 6 Jezzails would be alright.. personally I wouldn't run with only 3 Fiends though.

The AW, Bombardier and Engineer can all take More-More-More Warp Power (MMMWP) which lets a Skryre unit re-roll all hits and wounds. It's literally what makes Fiends and Acolytes so damaging.. if that spell doesn't go off you're losing a rather substantial amount of damage. Many will also take Deranged Inventor which lets a Skryre unit RR all hits; it's a good backup in case MMMWP doesn't go off.

For the WLC's, they can overcharge them to make them roll 12 dice instead of only 6 when firing; but for every 1 you roll it takes d6 MW's. Note that if you roll a 1 on power level, you still have to roll all 12 dice if you overcharge it to see if it hurts itself despite knowing that it automatically does 12 MW's. If you're running 2 WLC's, I would keep 2 Engineers which gives you 3 sources of MMMWP as redundancy and ability to stick with each WLC to buff it. Otherwise, 2 Engineers (or Engineer + AW) is generally enough. If you really want something dead, you should overcharge it 90% of the time.. this game is all about trades. If you trade a 180p unit for something that is buffing the hell out of your opponents army or is a threat to yours directly then it's generally worth trading even if it blows itself up afterwards.

I did this list, let me know if it's any good

++ **Pitched Battle** 2,000 (Chaos - Skaven) [2,000pts] ++

+ Leader +

Grey Seer on Screaming Bell [240pts]: 5. Master of Magic, General - Masterclan

Warlock Engineer [100pts]: 1. More-more-more Warp Power!, 6. Vigordust Injector

Warlock Engineer [100pts]: 1. More-more-more Warp Power!

+ Behemoth +

Hell Pit Abomination [240pts]: Warpstone Spikes

+ Artillery +

Warp Lightning Cannon [180pts]

Warplock Jezzails [420pts]: 3x 3 Warplock Jezzails

+ Battleline +

Clanrats [200pts]: 2x 20 Clanrats, Bell Ringer, Clanshields, Rusty Spears, Standard Bearers

Clanrats [120pts]: 20 Clanrats, Bell Ringer, Clanshields, Rusty Blades, Standard Bearers

Clanrats [120pts]: 20 Clanrats, Bell Ringer, Clanshields, Rusty Blades, Standard Bearers

+ Other +

Plague Monks [280pts]: 4x 10 Plague Monks, Foetid Blade and Book of Woes, foetid blade and staff, Plague Harbingers, Standard Bearers

+ Allegiance +

Allegiance: Allegiance: Skaventide

+ Game Options +

Game Type: 2000 Points - Battlehost

+ Realm of Origin +

Realm of Origin

++ Total: [2,000pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe

Edited March 18, 2020 by Malakhov

[The Red King]

So I had typed out a big long battle report but halfway through the text box started doing this weird thing where hitting enter deleted my last paragraph so I'm going to recreate the post succinctly. 

 

I had my first full 2k game with skaven and like my 6th game overall. I had to bring some sub optimal choices to pad points because I havent got my second battle box in yet but my basic list was

 

Furnace

Seer

Clawlord on broodhorror

Skreech

Engineer

 

80 clan rats

3 rattling guns

20 monks

1 cannon

Warp lightning vortex

 

Enemy was 

 

Archaon

2 sorceror

Chaos lord on karkadrak 

 

20 warriors

5 knights

Warshrine

 

On duality of death and ended up winning by playing to the mission instead of trying to kill anything (which seemed like a solid plan through the nurgle minus 1 to hit in shooting and the rerolling 4+ saves and the ignore mortal wounds on a 5+  and 2 wounds apiece all on his most basic troop.) In the end I was completely tabled with archaon killing 1300 points on his own due to my not understanding that terrain didn't matter at all to his ability to land places I thought were blocked off but won by 2 VP becaus he deployed all on one side and I sniped his teleport caster with the cannon the one time it got to shoot.

 

Question, how does one even kill Archaon? It felt nearly impossible to screen him out with cheap units because of the 14 inch flight and the weird "wobbly model/climbing terrain with a flying model" rules of AoS. The vortex couldnt even stop the flight because his tzeentch head can auto dispel it... I guess I could've taken warpgale and then screened normally. When do you have to pick your spells? In list building or at the start of the game?

[Gwendar]

18 hours ago, Malakhov said:

I will fiddle with the other rifles as well, they're not that shorter from the arquebuses 

I did this list, let me know if it's any good

-snip-

Solid enough, 2 CC units and 2 shooting units.. overall though you don't really have a big "heavy hitter" unit like 6 Fiends, 20-30 Acolytes or Ratling Guns, but that isn't to say you absolutely need one at all. I assume your Bell has Death Frenzy as it's spell?

 

16 minutes ago, The Red King said:

Question, how does one even kill Archaon?

Archaon can be tough, but it's generally going to come down to turn priority (which he can somewhat control if running Host of the Everchosen). He still dies to any heavy rend combat\shooting but that's really dependent on how close he is and if you get the next turn priority instead of him... which unfortunately is how AoS tends to work out. You shouldn't have issues screening Archaon with Clanrats so long as you place things in such a way to where he can't charge over them, IE keep everything close enough to where he has no-where to land except in front of some Clanrats. If you get the next turn, you should be able to shoot him off with Jezzails, 3 buffed Ratling Guns (requires Overseer of Destruction from a Skryre General), 6 Fiends and an overcharged WLC or 2.. or any combination of the above.

All in all, yeah your list is wholly un-optimized due to what you have available to you. See some lists I and others have posted and you can get a sense of something a little more competitive.. if that's what you plan to do anyway 😉

Also on your spell question, you pick it in the list building stage.

Edited March 19, 2020 by Gwendar

[The Red King]

Oh I'm well aware this isn't  the final list I want to run as I've read all 147 pages of this thread almost so feel free to educate me on that front lol.

 

As for killing him though, 3 buffed rattling guns (if I mathed right) only end up dealing like 4 wounds when he has -1 to hit and +1 armor save from nurgle buffs. I mean theres always WLC but the 4+ shrug makes me hesitate to target him with those. I guess if I just point every mortal wound in my army at him at once maybe?

 

Bummer on the spell thing but I guess warpgale is rarely going to have no target that you want to slow down.

 

Actually on the topic of the final 2k list I think I want to run its:

 

2 bells

Skreech (rule of cool means I like skreech over the warpseer)

Mounted clawlord

Engineer (or bombadier)

 

80 clanrats

 

2 cannons

 

Now the question is do I buy the warp lightning vortex (so many casters) or do I drop the bombardier to an engineer and bring 2 rattling guns so the engineer can do something besides overcharge cannons?

Edited March 19, 2020 by The Red King

[Gwendar]

1 hour ago, The Red King said:

2 bells

Skreech (rule of cool means I like skreech over the warpseer)

Mounted clawlord

Engineer (or bombadier)

 

80 clanrats

 

2 cannons

 

Now the question is do I buy the warp lightning vortex (so many casters) or do I drop the bombardier to an engineer and bring 2 rattling guns so the engineer can do something besides overcharge cannons?

With your current list, you likely won't be doing much to kill him since he ignores spells too.. you just don't have enough reliable firepower to really deal with him in my opinion. The math on Ratlings is odd to calculate due to the random rolls.. I mean, you're always going to be doubling their shots (remember you roll 2d6 then double the result) so the mathed out average of 3 of them is going to be 42 shots, which with Overseer (RR all hits) and a Spark to all 3 will be ~20 damage vs a 4+ if I remember correctly.

I wouldn't go with the WLV in the current meta anymore.. there's far too many things that can deny it\auto-unbind it as you've found out and it's CV of 8 is difficult, even with the RR's of a Spark. If you're going to bring Ratlings, you really want to have at least 3 and run the Engineer\Bombardier as General so they can have Overseer of Destruction.. I would also recommend Bridge in that setup but it isn't necessary. 

Your proposed list lacks any semblance of threats other than the 2 WLC's to kill heroes with.. but you also only have minimal Clanrats to take\hold objectives with. Even if you summoned in 2 VL's from the Bells (which is highly unlikely) none of them are inherently threatening when it comes to killing potential on their own. Bottom line with your final list is that I think it's more of a fluff list; which is totally fine if that's what your going for and I don't mean to be rude about so sorry if I'm coming off that way 😅. I just don't think it will hold up well in a competitive environment if that's what you're aiming to do.

Edited March 19, 2020 by Gwendar

[The Red King]

Oh no I won't be taking it to tournaments for sure. The nice thing about skaven though is how variable the lists can be. I can swap things around pretty easily if I did want to be more competitive. Example a bell and an HPA are the same points so I can easily swap them when I get the model (because I do love that model) and it feels like I have that experience a lot with skaven were dropping X unit and support is exactly enough points for Y unit and support. 

 

I just don't want it to be wildly unoptimized is all. The list in question isn't for killing Archaon either. I'd just try to warpgale him and screen I suppose.

 

But if I did want to build a list for killing him what do you recommend that would actually be enough firepower?

 

Heres a shooting list for general consideration.

 

Warlock bombadier w/ overseer & MMMWP

Warlock engineer w/ vigordust injector and MMMWP

 

Acolytes ×30

Acolytes ×30

Stormfiends ×6

 

Warp cannon

Warp cannon

 

Rattling gun ×3

 

Soulscream bridge

 

Alternatively I could drop 10 acolytes and turn the cannons into 9 jezzails and turn the engineer into a bombadier but I feel like I'd have very little potential for MW in the list if I did that. Though maybe the snipers make up for it with their 6's.

 

The list feels like technically it's nothing but threats and as stuff dies I just start buffing other stuff (assuming I can keep the heroes alive of course). So at first I'm buffing stormfiends and rattlings and overcharging cannons for alpha strike and then if they die the 60 acolytes arent shabby with warp sparks and MMMWP so you really have to kill everything before you can feel safe. Not that anything there is hard to kill.

Thoughts?

Edited March 19, 2020 by The Red King

[Malakhov]

4 hours ago, Gwendar said:

Solid enough, 2 CC units and 2 shooting units.. overall though you don't really have a big "heavy hitter" unit like 6 Fiends, 20-30 Acolytes or Ratling Guns, but that isn't to say you absolutely need one at all. I assume your Bell has Death Frenzy as it's spell?

Haven't looked in spells yet for bell, I looked at spells for shooting units. Lots of stuff to read and learn.

 

I was also considering dropping an engineer since you can't use more more warp power on the warp lightning canon. Also considering dropping vigordust.

 

That would free up 100 points and a warp lightning vortex sounds fun 

[Gwendar]

2 hours ago, The Red King said:

Heres a shooting list for general consideration.

-snip-

The list feels like technically it's nothing but threats and as stuff dies I just start buffing other stuff (assuming I can keep the heroes alive of course). So at first I'm buffing stormfiends and rattlings and overcharging cannons for alpha strike and then if they die the 60 acolytes arent shabby with warp sparks and MMMWP so you really have to kill everything before you can feel safe. Not that anything there is hard to kill.

Thoughts?

Well... that would certainly do it 😅

I prefer 9 Jezzails for various reasons.. but 2 WLC's overcharing every turn against something like Archaon could work out well. If you need to get MW's out, then just use those RR's to fish for 6's. You kind of have too many threats and no screens, so I'd try to have at least 60 Clanrats in there somewhere. 30 Acolytes will out-damage everything else by a substantial amount with MMMWP so you need to assess the situation and what they will be in range of with run + shoot.

The problem I see you having is if you play something very capable of T1 charging you and the like. As said above, you don't have anything to screen (unless you planned to use one of those 30 units of Acolytes to do that) and with our naturally high drops you often won't be deciding who goes first. You can always deploy back, but then you have to hope that they don't get that double turn as they will be in range no matter how far back you deployed... and likely have full objective control. If you're given first turn, any decent player will deploy far enough back to negate the abundance of short range shooting you have which is the main threat compared to the 2 WLC's; lists like these do well with playing it back for 1 turn and getting a double once everything is in range. I try to always include 3 threats at a minimum but have recently moved to trying to have 4 and planning to give Ratling Guns plenty of time this month and next before I take a break from Skaven for a month or so.

Anyway, sorry for the ramble... I do that a lot and my thoughts just sort of spill out 😉
 

32 minutes ago, Malakhov said:

a warp lightning vortex sounds fun 

Oh and it is.. when it goes off.. sometimes. The problem it's currently facing is this magic heavy meta; Nagash\Arkhan in OBR, Tzeentch\Archaon and auto-dispells\unbinds, New Seraphon (who I believe will be quite popular in the competitive scene) and even some CoS armies can do well to disrupt magic. With having a high CV, a Skryre Wizard with a RR next to a Gnawhole (they still get the +1 after RR's unlike Thanquol\Grey Seers) is the best option to cast it with but.. if it doesn't go off it's a 100 point paperweight for your cheat sheet.

Even if it does go off, you can have abysmal luck with it by rolling 1's on d6 MW's or rolling a 1-3 four times in a row when you needed a 4 to do d3 MW's.. but it's a dice game after all and that's the nature of it  in your case, yeah if you don't have anything that needs an Engineer then I wouldn't bother.. but always try to have at least 3 heroes\wizards for when those certain battleplans pop up.. and to spend CP obviously.