AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion

[Mizzazz]

So recently I've been doing decently against most armies (local meta includes Slaanesh, DoK, OBR etc) but I have never beaten the Idoneth player. I can't tell if it's just a horrible match up for us or if I just need to git gud.

 

Here is my list:

LEADERS

Clawlord (100) - Mighty Warlord - Command Trait : Verminous Valour

Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (240) - Lore of Ruin : Death Frenzy

Verminlord Warbringer (280) - General - Command Trait : Brutal Fury - Artefact : Things-Bane

Warlock Engineer (100) - Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism : More-more-more Warp Power!

UNITS

20 x Clanrats (120) - Rusty Blade 

20 x Clanrats (120) - Rusty Blade 

40 x Stormvermin (450) - Halberd

6 x Stormfiends (520)

1 x Warpfire Thrower (70)

 

The general tactic is the stormvermin, clawlord and warbringer hang out with the bell and the engineer + stormfiends go and wreck shop elsewhere, so I like to have minimum 2 threats on the board. Problem is the Idoneth player had 18 eels? Plus an eidolon and some guy that let them deepstrike and +3 to charge. They're already so fast that means he can sort of dictate when combat happens, and it was mostly on his terms. Baiting me out into turn 3 for high tide etc. Not sure how to counter this if anyone has ideas? The forgotten nightmares rule really puts a damper on one of the main damage outputs from the stormfiends too.

 

I need to beat this guy eventually so I need help! 😅

[Skreech Verminking]

16 minutes ago, Mizzazz said:

So recently I've been doing decently against most armies (local meta includes Slaanesh, DoK, OBR etc) but I have never beaten the Idoneth player. I can't tell if it's just a horrible match up for us or if I just need to git gud.

 

Here is my list:

LEADERS

Clawlord (100) - Mighty Warlord - Command Trait : Verminous Valour

Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (240) - Lore of Ruin : Death Frenzy

Verminlord Warbringer (280) - General - Command Trait : Brutal Fury - Artefact : Things-Bane

Warlock Engineer (100) - Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism : More-more-more Warp Power!

UNITS

20 x Clanrats (120) - Rusty Blade 

20 x Clanrats (120) - Rusty Blade 

40 x Stormvermin (450) - Halberd

6 x Stormfiends (520)

1 x Warpfire Thrower (70)

 

The general tactic is the stormvermin, clawlord and warbringer hang out with the bell and the engineer + stormfiends go and wreck shop elsewhere, so I like to have minimum 2 threats on the board. Problem is the Idoneth player had 18 eels? Plus an eidolon and some guy that let them deepstrike and +3 to charge. They're already so fast that means he can sort of dictate when combat happens, and it was mostly on his terms. Baiting me out into turn 3 for high tide etc. Not sure how to counter this if anyone has ideas? The forgotten nightmares rule really puts a damper on one of the main damage outputs from the stormfiends too.

 

I need to beat this guy eventually so I need help! 😅

Considering that you opponent will be able to always attack first in some turn sequence, I would try and screen your elite with those petite clanrat u its you have.

ususally you’ll want to keep your stormvermins within 3of them in such a way they can make a pile in, but considering his rule I would just stay 5-6inches out of combat range with your elite and hope he doesn’t get the double turn.

ps: I would also exchange you flamer for another 20rats to put into one of your already existing clanrat units.

a unit of 40clanrats, will hold around 2-3 units of eels from killing your elites, and the unit of 20clanrats will be an incredible nuisance for you enemy and another protective shields for you more elite units

[Mizzazz]

30 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Considering that you opponent will be able to always attack first in some turn sequence, I would try and screen your elite with those petite clanrat u its you have.

ususally you’ll want to keep your stormvermins within 3of them in such a way they can make a pile in, but considering his rule I would just stay 5-6inches out of combat range with your elite and hope he doesn’t get the double turn.

ps: I would also exchange you flamer for another 20rats to put into one of your already existing clanrat units.

a unit of 40clanrats, will hold around 2-3 units of eels from killing your elites, and the unit of 20clanrats will be an incredible nuisance for you enemy and another protective shields for you more elite units

I thought about exchanging that but another 20 clanrats in one of the existing units will put me over by 10pts, so I'd have to shift the list around elsewhere annoyingly. Alternatively I was thinking I could switch the flamer for 5 gutter runners? Otherwise if you have other suggestions for the list I'd be open. I was thinking I could drop the bell and take a grey seer on foot w/ the snoutgrovel robes, but I'm not sure atm.

Open to switch it up! Just wanna keep the base of Stormvermin, Clawlord, Warbringer really. Verminus represent.

[Skreech Verminking]

35 minutes ago, Mizzazz said:

I thought about exchanging that but another 20 clanrats in one of the existing units will put me over by 10pts, so I'd have to shift the list around elsewhere annoyingly. Alternatively I was thinking I could switch the flamer for 5 gutter runners? Otherwise if you have other suggestions for the list I'd be open. I was thinking I could drop the bell and take a grey seer on foot w/ the snoutgrovel robes, but I'm not sure atm.

Open to switch it up! Just wanna keep the base of Stormvermin, Clawlord, Warbringer really. Verminus represent.

Well 5gutter runners or 10giant rats might be a good option to swap  flamer out.

although The flamer is definitely a great tool for dealing with almost any death army and some armies of orders, etc.

[Mizzazz]

21 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Well 5gutter runners or 10giant rats might be a good option to swap  flamer out.

although The flamer is definitely a great tool for dealing with almost any death army and some armies of orders, etc.

That is also true. The flamer rarely is able to get in range of stuff though, realistically it needs to be hidden behind some clanrats to keep it safe, and even still that doesn't stop it getting sniped by people that know what it could do. Just wondering if there's more value in the anti-horde of the warpfire thrower, or more value in the objective capping of the gutter runners? Maybe I'll try some games with each.

[Firefrog]

3 hours ago, Lazaris said:

With the spell for extra attacks, a command point to fight twice, a varghulf courtier, rerolling hits of 1 and a double turn, I suffered 101 attacks that cleared my clanrats, then the guy proceeded to wreck the juicy targets behind the screen.

I did try to charge his ghouls with my stormfiends after gunning down some heroes/monsters, but the clubbing blows are not reliable enough to clear the unit entirely (and then on the next turn he brings back the dead models).

Fun fact: I tried to fight him with another army (Legion of Chaos Ascendant), but whatever I do, the double turn gives him the victory.

If he summons 20 ghouls and a varghulf, he couldn't have had the extra attack spell on him, as he summons on the end of his movement.

But yes, if he managed to put that on 20 ghouls, with feeding frenzy and a king wholly within 18" he'd be able to reroll 1's to hit. Basically, you'd have to be wary of pile-in ranges, you know FEC by now. Just place your juicy targets further behind your clanrats so he can't possibly pile-in and be able to hit, so you get an free attack with your juicy stuff behind if he does.

Another tip, shoot his leaders. Death armies in general fall apart without leaders, he'd lose the 6++ save, the ability to feeding frenzy, etc. And with MMWP you should be able to kill the courtiers from a distance at relative ease.

MMWP/Vigordust melee stormfiends should be able to kill plenty ghouls, as they have a save of 6+ and 6++. Also, a terrorgheist falls fairly easy to 40 plague monks. All in all, I don't know how I'd fare (quick math, you'd kill 17 ghouls on average with buffed clubbing blows, that's without the 2 actual melee stormfiends, considering you play them as a unit of 6)

 

[Lazaris]

Quote

If he summons 20 ghouls and a varghulf, he couldn't have had the extra attack spell on him, as he summons on the end of his movement.

He summoned, got double turn and then buffed everything... It's really frustrating. 😢

The only way I can avoid getting flanked that way is either to roll better (lel) or to park my units in the center of the board, so that the summoned units can't reach me. Problem: I won't be able to contest objectives that are close to an edge of the board, and I make myself more vulnerable to charge from the front.

Quote

Another tip, shoot his leaders.

I'll try that.
Hopefully Windlaunchers will be enough to deal with multiple archregents. I never manage to be in range of Ratling guns without putting myself at serious risk.

[Firefrog]

3 minutes ago, Lazaris said:

He summoned, got double turn and then buffed everything... It's really frustrating. 😢

The only way I can avoid getting flanked that way is either to roll better (lel) or to park my units in the center of the board, so that the summoned units can't reach me. Problem: I won't be able to contest objectives that are close to an edge of the board, and I make myself more vulnerable to charge from the front.

Yea getting double turned on such aggresive lists is really terrifying, can't do anything about that and it's really frustrating. FEC has high movement so it's not like you could deploy outside of that.

Quote

I'll try that.
Hopefully Windlaunchers will be enough to deal with multiple archregents. I never manage to be in range of Ratling guns without putting myself at serious risk.

No clue what kind of lists he's running, but maximum ghouls aren't really competetive, nor running more then 1 archreagents. He's gonna have a tough time against many other lists. You could consider dropping the WLC and Warpseer, going for horde clearing options like Thanquol or Warpfire Throwers if it's just against him. Or put in plague monks. You basically have 1 threat, and that's the Stormfiends as the bell and warpseer do no damage and are basically there for support. Checking your list again, I see no reason to bring the bell as it fits the same role as the Warpseer for battleshock immunity. And I'd rather run the bell with 40 monks then a verminlord as they've always disappointed me in both support and damage for the price. Killing the clanrats in your list which is quite easy also makes your bell immobile.

[Lazaris]

You're right. I tend to take Verminlord + Bell for the rule of cool (and the Warpseer is a pretty good tank), but they both lack a punch.

I have 20 half-painted plague monks, so maybe it's time to invest more in them and take them out on a ride.

I have to say that Thanquol is also very appealing to me. I like low-model counts.

[Firefrog]

6 minutes ago, Lazaris said:

You're right. I tend to take Verminlord + Bell for the rule of cool (and the Warpseer is a pretty good tank), but they both lack a punch.

I have 20 half-painted plague monks, so maybe it's time to invest more in them and take them out on a ride.

I have to say that Thanquol is also very appealing to me. I like low-model counts.

You won't regret either, moving a unit of 40 monks is a hassle, but damn do they pack a punch

For Thanquol I've always ran him with 2 ranged 2 melee weapons, you still do immense horde damage and your melee damage isn't completely gimped.

[Gwendar]

@Lazaris I would agree with Firefrog; you have too many points in heroes and not enough threats on the board. I've been doing quite well using 3, but having a minimum of 2 is still great.. but a single WLC is not a threat really.

If you're in it for competitiveness, I would drop both and bring at least 40 Monks and\or 9 Jezzails.. worth considering a 2nd Warlock for redundancy and\or a regular Grey Seer for Skitterleap\Death Frenzy. If you're in it for rule of cool.. well, by all means bring what you want, but I'd say Thanquol would be a bit better than a Warpseer or Bell. Neither are going to be particularly useful at mitigating BS when you have so few Clanrats and things will likely get 100% wiped when touched by anything from FeC. Your best bet really is to keep as far back as possible and deploy your heavy hitters more than 3" back so they can't double-pile in to them with Feeding Frenzy.. and hope you get turn priority.

I really do wonder if\when they'll change the double turn mechanic.. not much you can do to setup against something so fast\damaging, and the rise in shooting armies makes them even worse.. I really think using 40k's method or a slightly modified version of it would be much better... But I won't get stuck on that conversation again 😉 good luck on what you decide to try next time, be sure to let us know how it goes.

[Darkhan]

@Gwendar list thoughts?

 

Leaders: 1x engineer, 1x Bell, 1x Arch-warlock.

Battline: 20x3 clanrats.

Artillery: 9x Jezzails.

Behemoths: 1x HPA, 1x Doomwheel.

Other units: 30x Acolytes.

2000p

It looks perfect😂

Edited March 9, 2020 by Darkhan

[Gwendar]

27 minutes ago, Darkhan said:

@Gwendar list thoughts?

 

Leaders: 1x engineer, 1x Bell, 1x Arch-warlock.

Battline: 20x3 clanrats.

Artillery: 9x Jezzails.

Behemoths: 1x HPA, 1x Doomwheel.

Other units: 30x Acolytes.

2000p

 

I like it honestly.. kinda tempted to give something similar a go with the Doomwheel. It's incredibly useful at killing those support heroes or taking lightly guardian objectives... assuming you roll high enough on movement. Curious how you do with it.

[Darkhan]

2 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

I like it honestly.. kinda tempted to give something similar a go with the Doomwheel. It's incredibly useful at killing those support heroes or taking lightly guardian objectives... assuming you roll high enough on movement. Curious how you do with it.

Ill let you know when that day comes;p

[Gwendar]

7 minutes ago, Darkhan said:

Ill let you know when that day comes;p

Look forward to it. I may give it a go in this months meetup.. but I haven't decided if I want to give my Hallowheart list it's first run or not 😉.

Jezzails teleporting between Gnawholes (with a Skitterleaped Warlock to keep them company and teleport again next turn if needed) combined with a backline\edge of the board Doomwheel doesn't leave much room for things to hide most of the time. If you aren't used to using Acolytes, you really have to be careful with them. If they're touched by nearly anything they will crumble. Once that unit drops below 20 it starts to get pretty dicey with the damage they can throw out with MMMWP + Vigordust hurting them.

[Darkhan]

10 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

Look forward to it. I may give it a go in this months meetup.. but I haven't decided if I want to give my Hallowheart list it's first run or not 😉.

Jezzails teleporting between Gnawholes (with a Skitterleaped Warlock to keep them company and teleport again next turn if needed) combined with a backline\edge of the board Doomwheel doesn't leave much room for things to hide most of the time. If you aren't used to using Acolytes, you really have to be careful with them. If they're touched by nearly anything they will crumble. Once that unit drops below 20 it starts to get pretty dicey with the damage they can throw out with MMMWP + Vigordust hurting them.

Need to run various test runs for sure. Always wanted to go 30 Acolytes, but never done it to be honest! 9 stormfiends took their spot, but now😭

Got OBLITERATED by a hallowheart list yesterday, ran OBR melee only. Not the perfect matchup at all😂
The whole hallowheart army hugging a bridge, porting around wherever the F he wanted to go. 30x buffed up Irondrakes.....omfg. Had to go for the double turn twice, did not get it. 

[Hannibal]

16 hours ago, Icefighter said:

Hello, new skaven player here. Im building a 1k list and was wondering what different metas/ways to play there are because i know nothing about skaven I just need something casual and fun to play atm. Thanks!

You´ll need 2 battleline units to start and some hero to be your general.

I think consensus is that 2 units of 20 clanrats is the "best" battleline tax you can get. Simply due to the fact that you´ll get numbers as well as the option to include everything else into your army without the need for special battleline units.

From there it´s up to you. Hellpit Abomination, Jezzails, Stormfiends, PLaguemonks and Warpfire Cannons are named to be the damge dealers in this faction. Depending on which unit(s) you like here you should select the right hero(s) to support your army. It´s that simple.

[Gwendar]

3 hours ago, Darkhan said:

Had to go for the double turn twice, did not get it. 

Yeah.. that's kind of what they hope for. Many HH lists are going for table clearing as they tend to be lighter on melee bodies that can contest objectives. I run something similar but I'll be sure to post a batrep here even if it isn't Skaven 😉

[Gypsy_Pistolero]

3 hours ago, Hannibal said:

From there it´s up to you. Hellpit Abomination, Jezzails, Stormfiends, PLaguemonks and Warpfire Cannons are named to be the damge dealers in this faction. Depending on which unit(s) you like here you should select the right hero(s) to support your army. It´s that simple.

Do gutter runners fall under "damage dealers"? Their warscroll doesn't look bad to my untrained eyes especially if getting reroll wounds from deciever/eshin bonus

[Coyote]

No.

[Gwendar]

1 hour ago, Gypsy_Pistolero said:

Do gutter runners fall under "damage dealers"? Their warscroll doesn't look bad to my untrained eyes especially if getting reroll wounds from deciever/eshin bonus

Yeah... pretty much what Coyote said. They certainly do decent damage but it's nowhere near the level of an HPA, Monks, Stormvermin, etc.. and that's with their shooting and Deceiver buffs and the battalion being accounted for. If you're set on using Eshin for fluff and don't want to invest into shooting via Skryre then it's the best you can do really. 

Edited March 9, 2020 by Gwendar

[Gypsy_Pistolero]

38 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

Yeah... pretty much what Coyote said. They certainly do decent damage but it's nowhere near the level of an HPA, Monks, Stormvermin, etc.. and that's with their shooting and Deceiver buffs and the battalion being accounted for. If you're set on using Eshin for fluff and don't want to invest into shooting via Skryre then it's the best you can do really. 

Cheers for the explanation, I'm definitely investing in shooting just curious really about things a bit outside of the usual stuff like monks 😅 

[Hannibal]

16 hours ago, Gypsy_Pistolero said:

Cheers for the explanation, I'm definitely investing in shooting just curious really about things a bit outside of the usual stuff like monks 😅 

There are always reasons why the "usual stuff" ist THE usual stuff.

[michu]

I have two ideas for 1250 pts army. I'm not sure which one is better.

Mortal Realm: Hysh (not actually used, just a lore thing)
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)
- General
- Command Trait: Master of Magic
- Lore of Ruin: Death Frenzy
Warlock Engineer (100)
- Artefact: Vigordust Injector
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: Warp Lightning Shield
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Spear
- 2x Standard Bearers
- 2x Standard Bell Ringers
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
- 1x Standard Bearers
- 1x Standard Bell Ringers
40 x Plague Monks (280)
- Woe-stave
- 4x Standard Bearers
- 4x Plague Harbingers
1 x Warp Lightning Cannon (180)
1 x Warpfire Thrower (70)
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 1240 / 1250
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 129
 

Allegiance: Skaventide
Mortal Realm: Hysh (same)
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)
- General
- Command Trait: Master of Magic
- Lore of Ruin: Death Frenzy
Warlock Engineer (100)
- Artefact: Vigordust Injector
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: Warp Lightning Shield
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Spear
- 2x Standard Bearers
- 2x Standard Bell Ringers
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
- 1x Standard Bearers
- 1x Standard Bell Ringers
40 x Plague Monks (280)
- Woe-stave
- 4x Standard Bearers
- 4x Plague Harbingers
1 x Warp Lightning Cannon (180)
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 1250 / 1250
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 200
Wounds: 146
 

[Darkhan]

On 3/9/2020 at 7:57 PM, Gwendar said:

Yeah.. that's kind of what they hope for. Many HH lists are going for table clearing as they tend to be lighter on melee bodies that can contest objectives. I run something similar but I'll be sure to post a batrep here even if it isn't Skaven 😉

Another version of the list, is swapping out the AH and Doomwheel for a verminlord deceiver with gnawbomb, to get that HPA right in the face of the enemy;p