AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion

[Mizzazz]

9 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Well I’m nit sure what kind of list you’re taking (can’t seem to see the picture you’ve send so far) but I do like the sound pf double death frenzied Stormvermins.

Comsidering that’ll you’ll want to get those buffed stormvermins into the frontlines to kill-kill as mich as possible, My advise wpuld be to take a unit of 40 plague monks, a hell pit or anything else, that  will be able to clean up what ever else is still alive on your opponents side.

 

Yeah looks like something went wrong with the upload - I've reattached it now. Already got a hell pit and some ratling guns to clean up after the stormvermin - just tryna figure out what to do with the remaining 150-170 points

Saying that.. I could switch the screaming bell for a foot grey seer and take an extra unit of 40 plague monks? Give the foot guy snoutgrovel robes for some BS immunity

Edited February 7, 2020 by Mizzazz

[Num]

Quick question please: do you think that dealing with battle shock through the snoutgrovel robe artifact is a viable strategy?

I don't think I want to spend the points in a screaming bell or a warpseer. I also don't feel the bell of doom is reliable enough.

This would mean losing the vigourdust injector, but isn't it overkill anyway with 6 stormfiends, MMWP and sparks?

In exchange, I can skitterleap my battle shock immunity in the middle of the units that need it...

Here is the list I have in mind:

Allegiance: Skaventide
Grey Seer (140)
- General
- Trait: Master of Magic
- Artefact: Snoutgrovel Robes
- Lore of Ruin: Skitterleap
Warlock Engineer (100)
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Warlock Engineer (100)
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Spear
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
6 x Stormfiends (520)
- 2x Windlaunchers
- 2x Ratling Cannons
- 2x Shock Gauntlets
Hell Pit Abomination (240)
Warp Lightning Cannon (180)
Warp Lightning Cannon (180)
Warp Lightning Vortex (100)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 159
 

Thanks

Edited February 7, 2020 by Num

[Gwendar]

1 hour ago, Num said:

Quick question please: do you think that dealing with battle shock through the snoutgrovel robe artifact is a viable strategy?

I don't think I want to spend the points in a screaming bell or a warpseer. I also don't feel the bell of doom is reliable enough.

This would mean losing the vigourdust injector, but isn't it overkill anyway with 6 stormfiends, MMWP and sparks?

In exchange, I can skitterleap my battle shock immunity in the middle of the units that need it...

I think it's absolutely viable. The difference between 6 Fiends with\without Vigordust is about 6 damage on average (vs a 4+) but the reason most take Vigordust is to counteract Look Out, Sir. It really helps at shooting Heroes with the Windlaunchers as they'll go to 5+'s without it and even with re-rolls that's not great. I'm with you on the Bell of Doom; too many factors for it to be considered in my lists.. just buying a CP works as I generally have enough heroes to cover any part of the board anyway, though with your strategy you won't even need that and save points to buy toys.

That said with you having 2 WLC's that isn't as huge a deal to have the Windlaunchers with the +1 to hit as you have 2 other anti-hero options. The other great thing about the Windlaunchers as that they're one of the few things left that don't require LoS so there's nowhere for them to hide.. and generally if at least 2 of those 6 shots lands then that's a dead support hero. I dunno, I think it could work fine and I would be willing to try it. I planned to run roughly the same list but using 6 Jezzails instead.. though I may bust the cannon's out at some point and go with what you're doing. I haven't had my guy get back with me yet about ordering the Hell Pit so you may get to test it before I get a chance 😅

Edited February 7, 2020 by Gwendar

[The Red King]

Okay, so someone had an idea on reddit that I just had to explore so what do we think of a REAL skaven TIDE?

 

Greyseer on bell w/suspicious stone, death frenzy, and master of magic

Clawlord on horror w/verminous valor

Clawlord on horror w/savage warlord

Verminlord warbringer

 

Stormvermin ×10

Clan rats ×40

Clan rats ×40

Clan rats ×40

Clan rats ×40

Clan rats ×40

 

I can drop the verminlord for a second grey seer on bell and the vermintide endless spell because I know just one won't have enough aura to keep all those rats from running. Alternatively I can drop one clawlord for 10 more stormvermin and then either buy an extra CP or turn the verminlord into skreech or one of the other higher cost lords.

 

I love how versatile skaven list building is really. The idea behind this is more fun than competitive but a double death frenzied block of stormvermin and 200 clanrats just seems like a LOT of fun lol.

 

Thoughts?

[Skreech Verminking]

So it was a flawless victory for the skaven today.

I’ll give you guys a report of that incredible fun game tomorrow or the day after it.

shortly summarized, the brass orb is probably the greatest artefact in the whole game😂.

After-all it did kill-slay a 460points unit in my second battle-round.

that Doom engineer, or how some of my friends like to call it “Sir. Doom”, really did bring me luck😂😂

 

 

[fishwaffle2232]

22 hours ago, Num said:

Quick question please: do you think that dealing with battle shock through the snoutgrovel robe artifact is a viable strategy?

I don't think I want to spend the points in a screaming bell or a warpseer. I also don't feel the bell of doom is reliable enough.

This would mean losing the vigourdust injector, but isn't it overkill anyway with 6 stormfiends, MMWP and sparks?

In exchange, I can skitterleap my battle shock immunity in the middle of the units that need it...

Here is the list I have in mind:

Allegiance: Skaventide
Grey Seer (140)
- General
- Trait: Master of Magic
- Artefact: Snoutgrovel Robes
- Lore of Ruin: Skitterleap
Warlock Engineer (100)
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Warlock Engineer (100)
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Spear
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Blade
6 x Stormfiends (520)
- 2x Windlaunchers
- 2x Ratling Cannons
- 2x Shock Gauntlets
Hell Pit Abomination (240)
Warp Lightning Cannon (180)
Warp Lightning Cannon (180)
Warp Lightning Vortex (100)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 159
 

Thanks

Had a great game against tzeentch today which came down to a final roll to land an 11 inch charge in the last turn.

What i learnt from this game is how strong the alpha strike is and how quickly it can ruin your army if you don't have ways to deal with battleshock.

My list had a warpseer and I had thankfully paid to take an extra CP which kept my screens up for an extra turn.

The warpseer though was just so expensive and I love your thinking with the snoutgrovel robe. I think dropping vigour dust injector isnt a game breaker. In fact I've put together a couple of lists to try out now taking this option over warpseer or screaming bell and I like where those extra points can be spent.

However I wouldn't recommend dropping deranged inventor. Against any magic heavy army, the chances of MMMWP not going off are increased and today I learnt how important it was the have the deranged inventor as a backup. Stormfiend efficiency drops off really quickly without buffs so I'd be really cautious about dropping off vigour dust injector and deranged inventor. 

Really keen to try out the snoutgrovel robe in my next battle though. 

[Kirjava13]

16 hours ago, The Red King said:

Okay, so someone had an idea on reddit that I just had to explore so what do we think of a REAL skaven TIDE?

 

Greyseer on bell w/suspicious stone, death frenzy, and master of magic

Clawlord on horror w/verminous valor

Clawlord on horror w/savage warlord

Verminlord warbringer

 

Stormvermin ×10

Clan rats ×40

Clan rats ×40

Clan rats ×40

Clan rats ×40

Clan rats ×40

 

I can drop the verminlord for a second grey seer on bell and the vermintide endless spell because I know just one won't have enough aura to keep all those rats from running. Alternatively I can drop one clawlord for 10 more stormvermin and then either buy an extra CP or turn the verminlord into skreech or one of the other higher cost lords.

 

I love how versatile skaven list building is really. The idea behind this is more fun than competitive but a double death frenzied block of stormvermin and 200 clanrats just seems like a LOT of fun lol.

 

Thoughts?

Ask @Skreech Verminking, he's your man rat.

[Skreech Verminking]

16 hours ago, The Red King said:

Okay, so someone had an idea on reddit that I just had to explore so what do we think of a REAL skaven TIDE?

 

Greyseer on bell w/suspicious stone, death frenzy, and master of magic

Clawlord on horror w/verminous valor

Clawlord on horror w/savage warlord

Verminlord warbringer

 

Stormvermin ×10

Clan rats ×40

Clan rats ×40

Clan rats ×40

Clan rats ×40

Clan rats ×40

 

I can drop the verminlord for a second grey seer on bell and the vermintide endless spell because I know just one won't have enough aura to keep all those rats from running. Alternatively I can drop one clawlord for 10 more stormvermin and then either buy an extra CP or turn the verminlord into skreech or one of the other higher cost lords.

 

I love how versatile skaven list building is really. The idea behind this is more fun than competitive but a double death frenzied block of stormvermin and 200 clanrats just seems like a LOT of fun lol.

 

Thoughts?

Looks good though with so many clanrats You definitely wan’t something that can do some damage.

So pumping up your stormvermins to 40 and maybe taking a cheaper unit of 40plague monks will give you an extremely great list with a ton of bodies.

the list I personally would field, looks like this:

Allegiance: Skaventide
- Mortal Realm: Chamon
LEADERS
Verminlord Warbringer (280)
- General
- Command Trait : Brutal Fury - Artefact : Rune Blade
Clawlord (100)
- Mighty Warlord Command Trait : Savage Overlord
UNITS
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Stormvermin (450)
- Halberd
40 x Plague Monks (280)
- Foetid Blades
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
ENDLESS SPELLS / TERRAIN / COMMAND POINTS
Bell of Doom (40)
Extra Command Point (50)
TOTAL: 2000/2000 EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 1 WOUNDS: 257
LEADERS: 2/6 BATTLELINES: 5 (3+) BEHEMOTHS: 1/4 ARTILLERY: 0/4 ARTEFACTS: 1/1 ALLIES: 0/400

But that’s just me😂.

still you list definitely has some potential, since you seem to be going to make your heroes; the two clawlords  and the Verminlord your damage dealers.

[The Red King]

So I ended up changing the list to be

 

Greyseer on bell

Verminlord warbringer

Clawlord on brood horror

 

4× clanrats ×20

Stormvermin ×40

 

And either the doom bell spell or an extra CP (leaning extra CP)

 

 

I know plague monks are just better than stormvermin but this list is much more for putting 200 rats on the table and winning through style, not gameplay lol.

[Skreech Verminking]

14 minutes ago, The Red King said:

I know plague monks are just better than stormvermin but this list is much more for putting 200 rats on the table and winning through style, not gameplay lol.

Finally somebody who understands the equivalent meaning of expendable.

you are clearly a mastermind and a worthy replacement for Thanqoul at my side.

Yes-yes

Edited February 8, 2020 by Skreech Verminking

[Laststand]

Finally, FINALLY! The Warlock Bombardier is on preorder next week!

 https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/02/09/pre-order-preview-heroes-warbands-gangs-and-more/

[fishwaffle2232]

What do people think about decievers? Given the rise in magic heavy and shooting armies, I've been thinking about how good it is to have a backfield threat that can get stuck into mages, shooting blocks and catapults. 

On paper deciever sounds like an awesome pick against this meta. A teleport that gets you within 6 inches is awesome, take a thermal rider cloak and your opponent has to be super careful setting up their screens. The plus 4 movement and fly means this guy is gonna get where he needs to and jump over screens. 

The -2 to hit from missile attacks also makes him a harder target to snipe off which is a big plus. 

The list im thinking of is:

Arch warlock (deranged inventor)

Engineer

Deciever (TRC)

40 clanrats 

2x20 clanrats 

6 stormfiends

6 jezzails

WLV 

Extra CP

1970 pts

The list has bodies, alpha strike with deciever or skitterleaping WLV bomb, and solid shooting. It may fall down with battleshock but the extra CP should help here. 

What do you guys think? 

Edited February 10, 2020 by fishwaffle2232

[Cosmicsheep]

30 minutes ago, fishwaffle2232 said:

What do people think about decievers? Given the rise in magic heavy and shooting armies, I've been thinking about how good it is to have a backfield threat that can get stuck into mages, shooting blocks and catapults. 

On paper deciever sounds like an awesome pick against this meta. A teleport that gets you within 6 inches is awesome,

The -2 to hit from missile attacks also makes him a harder target to snipe off which is a big plus. 

Since playing against the new Kharadron Overlords book, where they can basically garrison a bulletproof ship and still shoot you from inside, and then run away when it takes a few wounds, I have also been looking at the Deceiver. I can’t see much else we have to counter this type of army. I plan on buying and magnetising a verminlord very soon.

[Skreech Verminking]

And here we have the battlereport, of my last battle at friday:

Amidst the ruins of Avelheim, A small but vile creature scurries with haste towards what seems to be some kind of a camp.

guided towards the biggest tent, the Creature stumbles towards a rat-man, bigger and burlier than most of his own kind.

 

“M-master Bloodtail”, it squeaked with fear in a high pitched voice, “I-I bring grave news!”

 

The ratman stood up slowly walked towards an axe, which was inscribed with what seems to have been runes of a ones ancient race.

Holding the Axe high and mighty in his right paw the Rat-man slowly turned back with a bloodthirsty look in his eyes to the messenger, “What does a weak-thing like you-you think-sees in himself that it dares to interrupt-disturb me-me?, but go on, should you-you please me with your answer,. I-I will let you scurry-life  for another day”.

 

 “I-I thank you f-for your-your kindn-ness”, it stumbled.

A-a Warband of-of hated fat-things is Scurry-marching towards us-us!”

 

Skaa Bloodtail vaguely smiled,” Yes-yes I am very pleased with your message, let those fat-things scurry-stumble towards us-us, let them see-feel what it means to-to mess with Skaa Bloodtail, right claw of Clan Mors!”

 

With a sign of his finger, the two Stormvermins scurried towards a gigantic war-machine, that was carrying a gigantic brass bell which would toll through the uneven swings of a not so unimpressive chained beast itself.

With their rusty halberd the two Guards made sure the rat-ogre would start swinging.

 

with the third toll of the bell the skittering masses of vile Rat-man assembled themself around the Screaming bell, where The mighty Clawlord was now awaiting them.

 

“We are-are at War! 

 

Stupid fat-things are run-scurrying our way as we-we speak-squeak. 

Now let them suffer die-Die!!”.

 

With a scream of joy and fear the Skaven Swarm, scurried towards the beast riding Ogors.

 

“What do you see-see Sniketrikk”, Skaa asked nervously.

 

“I see beasts oh mighty Clawlord, a lot of beast and fat-things.”

 

  “Good-good”,squeaked Skaa, let Warlock Skallog know that it is Time”.

 

 

Skallog dropped the far-squeaker to his feets.

 “Get me-me the Messenger of doom, and don`t forget to wake-wake the pilot Snaktat is still needed”, he ordered to his nearby students, who soon came back with a Wheel powered by a few rats, and a mad Warlock.

 

“Here I-I am”, Snaktat Squeaked with disturbing smile.

 

“Yes-yes you know the trill my most treasured students, no go-send Doo...”

With a loud mechanical scream the Doom-wheel, drove forward with an incredible speed that could even stupefy even the most dedicated slaaneshi speed-freak.

In No time The messenger of Doom has Arrived in the enemy lines, with a fanatic laugh the Warlock Send some overloaded War-bolts to the enmy`s General, wounding the Stonehorn significantly, while overrunning the stupefied Huskard.

 

“See that?”,boasted Skallog the Mad, while looking at his right towards the Doom engineer.

 

“My-My inventions are-are much better-deadlier than yours!” 

 

“So you squeak-say” replied the Doom Engineer with a slight smile.

 

Recovered from the devastating blow the doomwheel has caused in their lines, the ogors

marched with their growling stomaches towards the enemies first wave of clanrats.

With a devastating charge and the right to feast on the dead bodies first, the Frostlord brutally killed a few hundred clanrats, while the rest where given the choice to either die, brutally or be used for the next science project, the last few remaining clanrats chose to stay.

 

The Doom engineer started to laugh in a mad way, took some kind of a brassen orb out of his hidden stack of poisoned wind globes and threw it directly in to the face of the Frostlord.

At first nothing happened, but suddenly a rift opened and the sucked the giant beast with its owner into the Realm of chaos.

With a satisfied look in his eyes the Doom engineer looked back towards Skallog.

 

“I squeak-told you-you that nobody is better then me-Me!”

 

The battle went on and on for ours the clanrats Scurried in a frenzy forward, and Skaa Bloodtail waited with his Red Guards for the right moment.

Both the Warlock Bombardier and Doom engineer fired their weapons ofDestruction at a nearby Ogor cannon, both missing and blaming each other for it.

The man-things flayers on the other hand marched forward and were able poison the Ogor with the giant canon.

 

With a hungry bellow, the ogors crash into the line of clanrats, filling their bellies with the dying vermin.

 

The looses were immense, and in delight of the Warlock Skallog even the doom engineer lost his life in that brutal charge.

 

“Yes-yes”, thought Skaa.

Weak-meat, must be kill-slain, only the biggest and strongest shall live”.

 

With a uttering of His voice the Red Guard, the elite of the elite of clan Mors was send forward, and with a brutal charge the last few ogors were killed by a thousand cuts.

[Gwendar]

2 hours ago, fishwaffle2232 said:

What do people think about decievers? Given the rise in magic heavy and shooting armies, I've been thinking about how good it is to have a backfield threat that can get stuck into mages, shooting blocks and catapults. 

On paper deciever sounds like an awesome pick against this meta. A teleport that gets you within 6 inches is awesome, take a thermal rider cloak and your opponent has to be super careful setting up their screens. The plus 4 movement and fly means this guy is gonna get where he needs to and jump over screens. 

The -2 to hit from missile attacks also makes him a harder target to snipe off which is a big plus. 

 

What do you guys think? 

It makes sense.. but that's kind of the thing for me; on paper he seems great but in practice he often doesn't do much for me besides being a Skitterleap machine for the Corruptor w/ SoJ in my magic list. The problem I have with him is the average damage output isn't great but it is enough to take out squishy wizards and the like on average. I just don't know that I would find his points cost justifiable for that role compared to bringing more shooting. Still, he has some mental threat from the fact he can teleport 6" away which can cause opponents to be extra careful of allowing it in anywhere.. maybe even clustering things together more for a better WLV, but I wouldn't bank on that; any reasonably competitive player is not going to allow you to charge any of his support heroes and screen them off. -2 to hit from ranged is nice, but the threat of magic and heavy hitting combat units will still end him quite quickly... hell, 12 Flamers + Exalted and Irondrakes\Sisters of the Watch are examples of some things that can still 1-shot if properly buffed through that -2 to hit. Even WLC's\Jezzails\Fiends are still a threat if you mirror match.

Not saying he's a bad choice for what you're suggesting, I would love to see it tried and tested.. just for me personally I don't care for him. Now.. if he could double-pile in on a kill or something... 😉

Honestly, I think we may see a resurgence of 1-3 units of 5-20 Gutter Runners or Night Runners as a counter. Null deploying or pre-game movement can be huge when we're going to be made to go first a lot of the time, especially against things like Changehost or other null deploy\deepstriking lists.. just a bit unfortunate that Gutter Runners have to come in on the 1st turn.

[fishwaffle2232]

6 hours ago, Gwendar said:

It makes sense.. but that's kind of the thing for me; on paper he seems great but in practice he often doesn't do much for me besides being a Skitterleap machine for the Corruptor w/ SoJ in my magic list. The problem I have with him is the average damage output isn't great but it is enough to take out squishy wizards and the like on average. I just don't know that I would find his points cost justifiable for that role compared to bringing more shooting. Still, he has some mental threat from the fact he can teleport 6" away which can cause opponents to be extra careful of allowing it in anywhere.. maybe even clustering things together more for a better WLV, but I wouldn't bank on that; any reasonably competitive player is not going to allow you to charge any of his support heroes and screen them off. -2 to hit from ranged is nice, but the threat of magic and heavy hitting combat units will still end him quite quickly... hell, 12 Flamers + Exalted and Irondrakes\Sisters of the Watch are examples of some things that can still 1-shot if properly buffed through that -2 to hit. Even WLC's\Jezzails\Fiends are still a threat if you mirror match.

Not saying he's a bad choice for what you're suggesting, I would love to see it tried and tested.. just for me personally I don't care for him. Now.. if he could double-pile in on a kill or something... 😉

Honestly, I think we may see a resurgence of 1-3 units of 5-20 Gutter Runners or Night Runners as a counter. Null deploying or pre-game movement can be huge when we're going to be made to go first a lot of the time, especially against things like Changehost or other null deploy\deepstriking lists.. just a bit unfortunate that Gutter Runners have to come in on the 1st turn.

I guess this is the problem I see with skaven at the moment. We don't have much that can really threaten the backline t1-2 at least not without some lack and deployment error from opponent with gnawholes. 

I listened to a podcast the other day discussing the warpgnaw, which was quite interesting, because this thing is an absolute boss if it sees combat...if.

The problem again is the delivery method. A greyseer is going to drop it 9inches away which is a low chance charge. And if you take a deciever to drop it in with dreaded skitterleap I think it's too much of a points investment.

I think I might still test the deciever out in my next game. At the very least it looks like it would be a fun list to play.

Gutter runners and nightrunners is an interesting choice. Don't have the models to try this out though. Have you tried them out yet?

[Gwendar]

1 hour ago, fishwaffle2232 said:

I guess this is the problem I see with skaven at the moment. We don't have much that can really threaten the backline t1-2 at least not without some lack and deployment error from opponent with gnawholes. 

I listened to a podcast the other day discussing the warpgnaw, which was quite interesting, because this thing is an absolute boss if it sees combat...if.

The problem again is the delivery method. A greyseer is going to drop it 9inches away which is a low chance charge. And if you take a deciever to drop it in with dreaded skitterleap I think it's too much of a points investment.

I think I might still test the deciever out in my next game. At the very least it looks like it would be a fun list to play.

Gutter runners and nightrunners is an interesting choice. Don't have the models to try this out though. Have you tried them out yet?

Yeah, I never use Gnawholes in that manner, 99% of the time 1 or 2 out of 3 go in my deployment and other times it's 1 in deployment and the other 2 on the sides of the table. I think what we do have that can deploy off the table isn't too great, unless you go with the Warp-grinder + Skitterleap (for the hero) combo on Fiends or something... but then you're missing key buffs and can only throw out Deranged + Spark.

I love the idea of the Warpgnaw.. but your thoughts pretty much sum up my own. The only reason the Deceiver is in my magic list is to deliver the SoJ equipped Corrupter 6" away. He's worth his points in that scenario because he can also cast an Endless Spells afterwards and is extra nice on Hero controlled objectives which is where that list shines anyway thanks to running 3 VL's. Definitely give it a shot though, as I always say.

I haven't ran Night Runners yet, but I have done MSU's of 10 or 1-2 big units of 20 Gutter Runners before and they didn't shake out super well but.. that was only 2 games probably 9+ months ago so I need to try it again. The problem is finding room in lists; I like having Jezzails + Fiends\Acolytes with a 3rd threat of Monks\Hell Pit.. but I could see 2x10\1x20 Gutter Runners in that place.

[Nikobot]

1 hour ago, Gwendar said:

Yeah, I never use Gnawholes in that manner, 99% of the time 1 or 2 out of 3 go in my deployment and other times it's 1 in deployment and the other 2 on the sides of the table. I think what we do have that can deploy off the table isn't too great, unless you go with the Warp-grinder + Skitterleap (for the hero) combo on Fiends or something... but then you're missing key buffs and can only throw out Deranged + Spark.

I love the idea of the Warpgnaw.. but your thoughts pretty much sum up my own. The only reason the Deceiver is in my magic list is to deliver the SoJ equipped Corrupter 6" away. He's worth his points in that scenario because he can also cast an Endless Spells afterwards and is extra nice on Hero controlled objectives which is where that list shines anyway thanks to running 3 VL's. Definitely give it a shot though, as I always say.

I haven't ran Night Runners yet, but I have done MSU's of 10 or 1-2 big units of 20 Gutter Runners before and they didn't shake out super well but.. that was only 2 games probably 9+ months ago so I need to try it again. The problem is finding room in lists; I like having Jezzails + Fiends\Acolytes with a 3rd threat of Monks\Hell Pit.. but I could see 2x10\1x20 Gutter Runners in that place.

Agree with these thoughts.

Gnawholes are far from an automatic movement advantage or spellcasting buff. Their positioning restrictions really pull you off in directions you probably don't want to be in, either sitting back in your deployment waiting  for an opening or trying to get +1 cast with spells that are mostly short range or off to the side of the field not that close to objectives. The enemy is forced to babysit gnawholes in their deployment at times, but you have to sit back to take advantage or crawl up the side with multiple units, and these days, Skaven is bubbling tight behind screens more than a lot of the enemy does. It needs to be quite the orchestrated ballet of movements at times to eeek out any beenfit, which isn't bad, but its benefits are not as transparent as some faction terrain and often goes missed in battles, which is a slight shame. It would be good to see more interaction with them.

The Deceiver is the same for me, just feels like paying 320pts for that spell. He "should" kill a 5w hero or wizard, but its close enough to be a concern, and putting him into combat with anything larger without support is risky. He just doesn't have enough bite for a Lord of Assassins in my mind, and skaven doesnt have access to more than 1 artefact usually, but 320pts it shouldnt need an artefact to auto-pop a 5 wound wizard. The spell is great, but a little more kill-kill wouldnt be out of place. A "deadly strike" on 6's to hit or something similar is needed.

Night runners i have used simply to push back alpha-striking and gutter runners i have yet to get decent results out of. Im still working on it.

 

[Gwendar]

29 minutes ago, Nikobot said:

Agree with these thoughts.

Gnawholes are far from an automatic movement advantage or spellcasting buff. Their positioning restrictions really pull you off in directions you probably don't want to be in, either sitting back in your deployment waiting  for an opening or trying to get +1 cast with spells that are mostly short range or off to the side of the field not that close to objectives. The enemy is forced to babysit gnawholes in their deployment at times, but you have to sit back to take advantage or crawl up the side with multiple units, and these days, Skaven is bubbling tight behind screens more than a lot of the enemy does. It needs to be quite the orchestrated ballet of movements at times to eeek out any beenfit, which isn't bad, but its benefits are not as transparent as some faction terrain and often goes missed in battles, which is a slight shame. It would be good to see more interaction with them.

The Deceiver is the same for me, just feels like paying 320pts for that spell. He "should" kill a 5w hero or wizard, but its close enough to be a concern, and putting him into combat with anything larger without support is risky. He just doesn't have enough bite for a Lord of Assassins in my mind, and skaven doesnt have access to more than 1 artefact usually, but 320pts it shouldnt need an artefact to auto-pop a 5 wound wizard. The spell is great, but a little more kill-kill wouldnt be out of place. A "deadly strike" on 6's to hit or something similar is needed.

Night runners i have used simply to push back alpha-striking and gutter runners i have yet to get decent results out of. Im still working on it.

 

Gnawholes have honestly lost a lot of luster with the WLV range nerf. Now-a-days you're most likely throwing out a T1 MMMWP using the spark rerolls along with the +1 from the Gnawhole and then.. yeah. You move away from it for the rest of the game. You can of course use the Skitterleap + WLV combo by setting them up on the sides.. but again, that's about it afterwards. All that said I have definitely made use of the teleport with Jezzails more than anything and I think they work best with it; but it still isn't something I necessarily set up. On long deployments like Battle for the Pass I do set it up with Jezzails as it's harder for them to dedicate something to block it off... unless you're playing Tzeentch or Seraphon 😉

For the Deceiver, I think an instant x mortals on a 6 (like, a built in mini-SoJ) or being able to immediately pile in again on a kill would be the best options off the top of my head.. but if you go with the latter I think he would still need another attack or two as the average damage is abysmal. As much as I love Gutter Runners, I really think being forced onto the table T1 is what kills it, especially when we go 1st a lot of the time. Night Runners probably are the better option, but at that point I would rather have 2x10 for pre-game screens rather an investing into them as damage like you can with Gutter Runners.

[Nikobot]

3 hours ago, Gwendar said:

Gnawholes have honestly lost a lot of luster with the WLV range nerf. Now-a-days you're most likely throwing out a T1 MMMWP using the spark rerolls along with the +1 from the Gnawhole and then.. yeah. You move away from it for the rest of the game. You can of course use the Skitterleap + WLV combo by setting them up on the sides.. but again, that's about it afterwards. All that said I have definitely made use of the teleport with Jezzails more than anything and I think they work best with it; but it still isn't something I necessarily set up. On long deployments like Battle for the Pass I do set it up with Jezzails as it's harder for them to dedicate something to block it off... unless you're playing Tzeentch or Seraphon 😉

For the Deceiver, I think an instant x mortals on a 6 (like, a built in mini-SoJ) or being able to immediately pile in again on a kill would be the best options off the top of my head.. but if you go with the latter I think he would still need another attack or two as the average damage is abysmal. As much as I love Gutter Runners, I really think being forced onto the table T1 is what kills it, especially when we go 1st a lot of the time. Night Runners probably are the better option, but at that point I would rather have 2x10 for pre-game screens rather an investing into them as damage like you can with Gutter Runners.

Gnawholes just seem to have a lot more potential for interaction that goes beyond 1 or 2 cool/gimmicky tricks, like whack-a-mole with the WLV. The jezzails prob are 1 of the best uses of them, and beyond that it tends to be requiring combined efforts, in concert, to get some real mileage out of them, e.g. combo of gnawhole and/or successful teleport and/or warp grindering a unit close to screen etc

In future it would be nice to see a few more options to enhance this sort of play, which i think can be satisfying and rewarding, but at the moment is limited to being mostly gimmicky, such as:
- Verminlords getting a spell deck and 1 of those spells being able to open a gnawhole like the gnawbomb for 1 turn
- Warpgnaw verminlord being able to "call" a unit through a gnawhole, i.e. opposite to a hero sending one now, they help a unit through from the destination end without need of a hero at the gnawhole of origin
- Warpgnaw taking a unit with him at deployment again

Things like this could really setup some great opportunities for strategy and rewarding tricks

Yes those are 2 good options for the Deceiver, i can see ... Coup De Grace or Deadly Strike... on an umodified '6' do a flat 3 MW and possibly 7 attacks. Would really bolster confidence in being able to assassinate a minor hero, especially once the Deceiver has taken some damage.

I agree night runners are probably my preferred option as well in that capacity. 

[Kirjava13]

I would really, really love the Warpgnaw to be worth taking... it's hard to justify bumping him up the production queue when he's been nerfed to his current point.

[Nikobot]

He's all right for his points, only 260pts. 

I'm merely commenting on the loss of a real  sweet ability that could add more tactically to Skaven. But he can do some work if he gets the drop on someone 

[fishwaffle2232]

1 hour ago, Nikobot said:

He's all right for his points, only 260pts. 

I'm merely commenting on the loss of a real  sweet ability that could add more tactically to Skaven. But he can do some work if he gets the drop on someone 

Where are you finding the points for this guy. I can't add him to lists on azyr and cant find it listed anywhere. Warscroll builder says he costs 320 pts.

 

Edit: Never mind I found it. Jeeze 260 pts is pretty good for what this guy can do. Huge damage and an awesome sniping spell that can break unit coherency. 

Edited February 11, 2020 by fishwaffle2232

[Skreech Verminking]

11 minutes ago, fishwaffle2232 said:

Where are you finding the points for this guy. I can't add him to lists on azyr and cant find it listed anywhere. Warscroll builder says he costs 320 pts.

The aos aop

[Gwendar]

3 hours ago, Kirjava13 said:

I would really, really love the Warpgnaw to be worth taking... it's hard to justify bumping him up the production queue when he's been nerfed to his current point.

47 minutes ago, fishwaffle2232 said:

Jeeze 260 pts is pretty good for what this guy can do. Huge damage and an awesome sniping spell that can break unit coherency. 

I think the loss of his true deepstriking potential with a unit is a major contributer to him not seeing play. Coming through a Gnawhole is just.. not that great considering their positioning. To be honest, using a Gnawbomb in conjunction with him is probably the best bet, but considering it's short range you'll have to set this up T2 or Skitterleap something to get it near your selected terrain. And then you have the issue of getting 2 artifacts (Ghyrstrike on the Warpgnaw + Gnawbomb).

Giving him Ghyrstrike amounts to about 11.5 wounds on average against a 4+ save which is okay but.. that generally isn't killing any big monsters and is overkill against support heroes so he fits somewhere in-between. Without it he's back down to 7.5 wounds done. So you send him at hordes.. but for 20 more points you could get 40 Monks who can handle hordes better. Splinter-Screech wants a scenario in which your opponent is conga-lining a unit but outside of that it's on luck to kill a hero with it and using it against something that's already in combat is likely wasted as it can pile-in to reform.

All that said, I know Dan Brewer was running it a lot and apparently doing well with it but he also runs Verminous heavy where I think it fits in a bit better.. this would allow you to run Claw-Horde for the 2 mentioned Artifacts.