AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion

[Darkhan]

2 minutes ago, Darkhan said:

 

Jesus...can't even edit my own text.

Edited January 15, 2020 by Darkhan
Wrong edit

[Skreech Verminking]

32 minutes ago, Darkhan said:

If he got flamers, running changehost, they will WRECK things in T1 if he decides to send in flamers and bomb you.
Only way I have been theorycrafting to avoid this, is during deployment, "sacrifice" 1 units of clanrats, making a screen for the rest of the army, flamers will port in 9" from the line, they got 18" reach, make sure if have the rest of the army 9" behind that front clanrats meat shield unit.

You turn, burn them away with stormfiends.

 The flamers are EVIL! Two mates of mine played yesterday, Tzeentch vs cities. 9 flamers totally annihilated 20 phoenix guard turn 1, and PG even got a 4+ aftersave😳😳😳

Mmh looking at the rules, 9flamers would do against a unit with 20 or more models that doesn't have a save on average 30wounds.

against phoenix guard that would be on average 7.5damage.

So I’m not sure how he was able to wipe a whole unit of 20Phoenix Guards.

now I don’t know what kind of buff can be applied to those flamers (like more damage buffs or rend buffs or even ignore aftersaves) (which could chance the average damage output in total) but I don’t think that an unbuffed unit of flamers will destroy a whole unit of 40Clanrats unless he is rolling like a god and your luck in total has vanished.

Unless of course he is aiming at those plague monks, or even acolytes.

those guys will literally get destroyed, considering that their save won’t do much good. 

Edited January 15, 2020 by Skreech Verminking

[Darkhan]

54 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Mmh looking at the rules, 9flamers would do against a unit with 20 or more models that doesn't have a save on average 30wounds.

against phoenix guard that would be on average 7.5damage.

So I’m not sure how he was able to wipe a whole unit of 20Phoenix Guards.

now I don’t know what kind of buff can be applied to those flamers (like more damage buffs or rend buffs or even ignore aftersaves) (which could chance the average damage output in total) but I don’t think that an unbuffed unit of flamers will destroy a whole unit of 40Clanrats unless he is rolling like a god and your luck in total has vanished.

Unless of course he is aiming at those plague monks, or even acolytes.

those guys will literally get destroyed, considering that their save won’t do much good. 

On the top of my head:) flamers shooting at a unit with 20+ models, gets 2+ to hit, coven gives them -1 rend. And some +1 to wound from Artefact aura. Rerolling the ones.

So they would look like this: 2+ hit, 2+ wound, 1- rend, D3 dmg.  27 attacks +1 from leader.

Asking now how they managed, All the attacks went through, 2 attacks did not wound. Total of 26 attacks to save. Did 47 wounds something. With the after saves etc, 24 went through.
This was extremely well rolled tho. To save the PG, he needed to do a little above average to save. But failed.

Now....Imagine 2x9 flamers😂

Edited January 15, 2020 by Darkhan

[Skreech Verminking]

24 minutes ago, Darkhan said:

Now....Imagine 2x9 flamers

Sounds like heresy to me😂

[Gwendar]

Here's the thing.. I've been having this discussion in the Tzeentch topic as I planned to play these Flamer heavy shooting lists and I see the huge danger of it. @Darkhan summed it up nicely enough. 9 Flamers against 10+ models (the buffs he as given) are going to do about 30 damage on average against a 4+ save. So yeah, that's going to instantly disintegrate Monks, Clanrats, Acolytes, Stormvermin.. any hordes and even if you IP them, what are you left with?

Now if you take away the +1 to hit (say they're shooting at 6 Fiends or 9 Jezzails) they are still doing about 25 damage on average against a 4+. That means that most of the time, your 9 Jezzails are gone in 1 turn and your Fiends shooting could potentially get damaged. Fiends have a 'buffer' now of 14 wounds before shooting is affected.. so yeah. And that's not even counting the 6 shots at -2 rend that the Exalted Flamer accompanying them can throw in, or the 2d6 shots of the potential Lord of Change that they also bring up to get the +1 to wound aura out (though this can be subbed out with a Fateskimmer\other fast daemon hero). All this is of course using simple Mathhammer math.. but averages are averages.

Anyway.. there are deadlier shooting units out there (like 20-30 fully buffed Irondrakes) and the most they have access to is the Bridge.. which in CoS has a long range. You can make a case for Shootcast lists being as bad, but even 2 Ballistas or 9 Longstrikes are not equaling the same kind of damage.  However what you get with Changehost is the ability to teleport two units per turn anywhere outside 9". When you combine that with the fact that Changehosts are 99% of the time going to be a 1-drop army and that the deployment space on most battleplans are going to leave you in range even if you keep your important stuff way back.. yeah, it's not good. If you do keep everything farther back, you're now at a disadvantage from being huddled into a corner. On the other side of this, they could always give you the first turn, but you then risk getting doubled against all that shooting.

So yeah, I think it's quite strong but that lies more in the power of Changehost than the Flamers themselves.

EDIT: It's worth noting that this is also assuming they're running the Conflag Coven for the +1 rend on Flamers\Exalted Flamers and the Horrors shooting attack. This can actually make units of 20 Horrors (effectively 100 wounds\bodies) actually pretty deadly themselves when it comes to shooting and they'll stick around far longer than 9 Flamers will.


TLDR: @Cosmicsheep assuming you're playing against the above type of Changehost\Flamer list, you better hope you play a battleplan in which you can keep Fiends\Jezzails\Engineer out of range. You're best bet is to go with full shooting Fiends (Launchers and Ratlings) and I strongly encourage you to bring another Engineer or Arch-Warlock for MMMWP redundancy; without it the Fiends damage output is not great. On that same note, having a Bridge to get closer would be nice to have.. though you of course risk it getting unbound, so stay out of range of that. If you can take out the heroes (the LoC in particular if it's a Changehost as it shuts down the teleporting) then you should be good, honestly.. 2nd priority going to those Flamers of course.

Units of Horrors will be time-consuming to kill, so don't let them go for too long (a unit of 10 is effectively 50 bodies\wounds to get rid of) and sit on an objective.

Edited January 15, 2020 by Gwendar

[Darkhan]

And their destiny dice makes pinks/blues/brims never run in battleshock😂That thing got to get FAQ'ed.

[Gwendar]

1 minute ago, Darkhan said:

And their destiny dice makes pinks/blues/brims never run in battleshock😂That thing got to get FAQ'ed.

Yeah... that whole unmodified thing is incredibly powerful but knowing GW, I couldn't really say whether or not that's intended as they do some bonkers stuff now and again.

I won't say anything is OP until I've properly played it or the higher-level tournament guys have and can see the issues.. but it's definitely strong (which isn't a bad thing).

[Skreech Verminking]

18 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

Yeah... that whole unmodified thing is incredibly powerful but knowing GW, I couldn't really say whether or not that's intended as they do some bonkers stuff now and again.

I won't say anything is OP until I've properly played it or the higher-level tournament guys have and can see the issues.. but it's definitely strong (which isn't a bad thing).

Comsidering the damage potential of those flamers, does anybody know how many points they cost by now??

[Darkhan]

4 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Comsidering the damage potential of those flamers, does anybody know how many points they cost by now??

360 for 9.

[Skreech Verminking]

4 hours ago, Darkhan said:

360 for 9.

Damm,

that really is like nothing, considering that our most elite Infantry units known as stormvermins, almost cost a 100points more when taken in it’s full strength.

Well hoping here that this’ll mean a huge points reduction on our infantry units (excluding plague monks)  and war machines.

[Heaven_lord]

Hey,

What would be the most competitive 1000 pts list WE Can build with our Battletome ?

[Skreech Verminking]

11 hours ago, Heaven_lord said:

Hey,

What would be the most competitive 1000 pts list WE Can build with our Battletome ?

180 clanrats and a plague priest as the general.😉

while using the infamous onion formation, this list will literally become unstoppable 

[Congratz]

4 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

180 clanrats and a plague priest as the general.😉

while using the infamous onion formation, this list will literally become unstoppable 

Onion formation? Can you explain why this list is good? 

[HarbingerGaming]

I'm also curious about this "onion formation".

[Skreech Verminking]

I’ll give you guys a good explanation tomorrow.

[Cosmicsheep]

On 1/15/2020 at 9:40 AM, Darkhan said:

If he got flamers, running changehost, they will WRECK things in T1 if he decides to send in flamers and bomb you.
Only way I have been theorycrafting to avoid this, is during deployment, "sacrifice" 1 units of clanrats, making a screen for the rest of the army, flamers will port in 9" from the line, they got 18" reach, make sure if have the rest of the army 9" behind that front clanrats meat shield unit.

You turn, burn them away with stormfiends.

 The flamers are EVIL! Two mates of mine played yesterday, Tzeentch vs cities. 9 flamers totally annihilated 20 phoenix guard turn 1, and PG even got a 4+ aftersave😳😳😳

He had flamers.... 12 of them 😭😭😭 And I completely forgot your advice @Darkhan  I let my stormfiends and jezzails get too close to the front line and he pretty much burned them away. I got turn 1, managed to get off MMWP on the fiends and used the vigordust on the jezzails. Took out the exalted flamer but only got 3 of his flamers. They roasted my jezzails and he magicked my fiends with some D6 MW shenanigans. Pretty much game over at that point 😩 Very strong army but not helped by my lousy setup. Really need to watch the vid on deployment 😂 

[Darkhan]

1 hour ago, Cosmicsheep said:

He had flamers.... 12 of them 😭😭😭 And I completely forgot your advice @Darkhan  I let my stormfiends and jezzails get too close to the front line and he pretty much burned them away. I got turn 1, managed to get off MMWP on the fiends and used the vigordust on the jezzails. Took out the exalted flamer but only got 3 of his flamers. They roasted my jezzails and he magicked my fiends with some D6 MW shenanigans. Pretty much game over at that point 😩 Very strong army but not helped by my lousy setup. Really need to watch the vid on deployment 😂 

D6 mortal wounds on 6 fiends is nothing to be afraid of;)

Next time!:) you could also try and skitterleap a engineer ahead to cast WLV, and tag off a couple more flamers T1. If your 9 jezzails snipes down hes LoC T1, I dont think he can teleport anymore.

[Skreech Verminking]

1 hour ago, Darkhan said:

LoC

LoC?

what’s exactly is that pr what’s it’s fullname??

 

14 hours ago, HarbingerGaming said:

I'm also curious about this "onion formation".

So I hear there are a few people here wondering how the onion formation works.

well the Onion formation is a great way in keeping those pesky objective in your hand for multiple turns.

it basically consists of multiple expendable units, of which one is basically the core, that is surrounded by multiple layers of expendable clanrats, that are exactly 3.1- or more inches away (depended in which kind of situation your in!) from each other.

with this strategy, your enemy will have to peel each expendable unit of of the formation If he/she wants to gain the control of the objective.

which will take a few turns, and sometimes even till the end.

it’s an interesting formation which the grand master maple or mable (I’m probably spelling it wrong)  has introduced to us int this forum a long long time ago.

Edit: and since we’re already at it, those anybody know, how the formation that let’s those pesky flamers teleport 9inches away from your lines.

I’m just wondering what is exactly needed for those guys to be able to teleport,

just so I can somewhat prepare myself for a probably very deadly and soon coming fight between my skaven or gobbos of lurktobia, with this evil beings, that do not serve the true and only real chaos deity of all 13Realms!!! 

Edited January 17, 2020 by Skreech Verminking

[Darkhan]

4 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

LoC?

what’s exactly is that pr what’s it’s fullname??

Hehe, soz, Lord of Change.

[Darkhan]

@Skreech Verminking If I'm not mistaken, with changehost, the Tzeentch player can teleport 2 units each turn, 9" away from you, anywhere. He can't teleport the Lord of Change tho. If you take out the Lord of Change, he can't teleport units anymore.

Ill double check with my Tzeentch mate.

[Darkhan]

Looking at the Las Vegas Open lists, James Crocket got 2x9 Jezzails, 18 jezzails!😂

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Byw7UYxkGtjSTU9yZmd3bk5LOFpvUUNpNmM4N0VScURRNU9F/view

Edited January 17, 2020 by Darkhan

[Skreech Verminking]

1 hour ago, Darkhan said:

Looking at the Las Vegas Open lists, James Crocket got 2x9 Jezzails, 18 jezzails!😂

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Byw7UYxkGtjSTU9yZmd3bk5LOFpvUUNpNmM4N0VScURRNU9F/view

Considering how many bonereaper players we have here, using 3units of 20 guard-things each, I think he has chosen wisely to take 2flamers with him.

it will give him some protection of those catapults aiming at his jezzails in the first turn,  and should that happen anyways he will be able to destroy-kill most of those guard-things  without much thought.

although I’m not a big fan of the rest of his army.

there aren’t enough bodies for my taste 

[Ineffectual Clawlord]

As there are no Tzeentch players in my area that I know of, I can test this properly, but just from reading the book and writing lists there are some that I wouldn't know how to beat. At least with a Flamer list in some scenarios you can deploy further back, have your Fiends absorb damage etc.

However, how would I play against a Duplicituos Host- Changehost list with 2x20 Horrors? With destiny dice it's almost impossible not to roll enough for at least 1 9" auto-charge, quite possibly 2. Besides the fact that that's 120 shots that do an average of 20 damage vs 4+ save (with selfbuff) or annihilate a group of Monks, I'm effectively boxed in my starting zone by 200 wounds. The banner replenishes if I don't kill 20 Horrors on T1, or at least they are immune to battleshock. With the LoC and battalion that still leaves 640 points open.

No Skaven list that I've seen has enough damage output to get out of this before turn 3, probably even more as Tzeentch can deny important buffs like MMMWP. I don't want to sound negative, but I just can't quite figure out how I would win against this.

[Darkhan]

10 minutes ago, Ineffectual Clawlord said:

As there are no Tzeentch players in my area that I know of, I can test this properly, but just from reading the book and writing lists there are some that I wouldn't know how to beat. At least with a Flamer list in some scenarios you can deploy further back, have your Fiends absorb damage etc.

However, how would I play against a Duplicituos Host- Changehost list with 2x20 Horrors? With destiny dice it's almost impossible not to roll enough for at least 1 9" auto-charge, quite possibly 2. Besides the fact that that's 120 shots that do an average of 20 damage vs 4+ save (with selfbuff) or annihilate a group of Monks, I'm effectively boxed in my starting zone by 200 wounds. The banner replenishes if I don't kill 20 Horrors on T1, or at least they are immune to battleshock. With the LoC and battalion that still leaves 640 points open.

No Skaven list that I've seen has enough damage output to get out of this before turn 3, probably even more as Tzeentch can deny important buffs like MMMWP. I don't want to sound negative, but I just can't quite figure out how I would win against this.

Thanquol with 4x flamers will shred em;)

Fully buffed stormfiend unit of 6 will also make a racket.

Maybe..shot them with stormfiends, make them multiply into blues, let Thanquol finish the job, as he gets to roll more dices the more units he torches.

I had a scenary way back, Thanquol flaming 40 skellies. Thats 160 dice....😂

Edited January 17, 2020 by Darkhan

[Gwendar]

7 hours ago, Cosmicsheep said:

Really need to watch the vid on deployment 😂 

Yeah.. 12 Flamers is tough to deal with but I'm building the same thing as I have no shame and love them. Deployment is something you definitely learn with time, but that discussion video may get you thinking about it and specific scenarios a bit harder.

Like I've said, I think Changehost/Conflag is hard to to do much of anything against.

5 hours ago, Darkhan said:

@Skreech Verminking If I'm not mistaken, with changehost, the Tzeentch player can teleport 2 units each turn, 9" away from you, anywhere. He can't teleport the Lord of Change tho. If you take out the Lord of Change, he can't teleport units anymore.

Ill double check with my Tzeentch mate.

Correct, once that LoC is gone that's it for the teleporting... Though Changehost gives you several priorities. Do you focus the Flamers? Even without the teleport they're dangerous (27" threat range) and the same can be said for large Horror units. Or do you just focus the LoC? No more teleporting but those lists can still wipe you off the table easily.

17 minutes ago, Ineffectual Clawlord said:

No Skaven list that I've seen has enough damage output to get out of this before turn 3, probably even more as Tzeentch can deny important buffs like MMMWP. I don't want to sound negative, but I just can't quite figure out how I would win against this.

I've been having the same problem. I can see ways to deal with it, but the control that Changehost allows leaves you with few realistic options. 1 drop and board control means any decent Tzeentch player is going to shut you out of doing anything out of fear or denying outright.

I'm interested to see how lists evolve.. already at LVO the lists are continuing the trend Monks + 6 Fiends.. or some jezzails in other cases. Right now the big bad is Bonereapers which can melt to Fiends.. but Changehost shooting lists? I really don't see what I can do with Fiends lists unless they give me T1 and deploy things in range of the Bridge teleport. But they also can auto deny this (and WLV) at any time, really.

Edited January 17, 2020 by Gwendar