AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion

[Darkhan]

5 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

Should be enough.. typically you will find your target priorities are going to be different with the Jezzails than with the Fiends. I'm still up in the air about including Bridge, but I'm leaning more towards no just because we've lost some resiliency (wound count) from those 3 Fiends.. and Bridge often puts you into a precarious position if your goal is to get both the Ratling Cannons and the Windlaunchers in range of 2 separate targets. Currently I'm working out what I want to play this weekend.. probably OBR but for our monthly meetup (2-3 games) I will likely go with the above w/ Bridge.

Of course.. I'm also still inclined to test out the old 6-Fiends, 40 Monks route but.. I'm not particularly hopeful with that one.. or maybe I'm just tired of using Monks.

Funnily enough I joined the OBR ranks too and soon Tzeentch. All sorts of betrayal going on here but... that's kind of the Skaven way, isn't it? 😉

Also started with OBR😂 Still have a DoK army, not touched it for over a year.

I always hated monks, but too good to just pass up. If skryre accolytes did not cost a fortune, but sold in packs of 10, I would be all over Skryre, as that is my Skaven love.

Played some with OBR so far, it's fun. But I always miss my sweet sweet skaven hilarious shooting.  Just looking at these bampires makes me think of my rats😂
https://www.greebo-games.com/189-cutiemals

[Gwendar]

37 minutes ago, Darkhan said:

Also started with OBR😂 Still have a DoK army, not touched it for over a year.

I always hated monks, but too good to just pass up. If skryre accolytes did not cost a fortune, but sold in packs of 10, I would be all over Skryre, as that is my Skaven love.

Played some with OBR so far, it's fun. But I always miss my sweet sweet skaven hilarious shooting.  Just looking at these bampires makes me think of my rats😂
https://www.greebo-games.com/189-cutiemals

And I've played with Acolytes a ton.. but as we said they just don't work in conjunction with Fiends very well. I have been considering the old days when our tome first came out. Lots of people were running Acolytes + Jezzails and some were just starting to get onto the Monk hype train and threw those in as well. The points hikes have been just enough though to make it not as easy to do as I would like (40 Monks, 20-30 Acolytes and 9 Jezzails with a Bell + CP).. who knows, maybe I'll go back to running 2 WLC's like the old days and have people check the rules on it because they don't believe me when I say "Welp, that's a 1, so that's 6 MW's".

I don't care for CC armies (IJ, FeC, CoS to some extent.. etc) but I never get into them. I want to do Tzeentch as it was my first interest getting into AoS before I got Skaven and because.. well, it's another magic\shooting based army which suits my playstyle a lot more. I only like OBR because they feel elite and more defensive (despite the astronomical amounts of CC damage they putout, obviously) but.. it's all the hyper aggressive\T1 charge type CC armies I don't care for I guess. I just prefer to play my wargames more defensively\reactionary and magic\shooting leans into that a lot of the time.

[Obeisance]

There's a guy at my tournament today who will be unveiling a heavily converted Warpcog Convocation. I'll take pics for you guys.

I desperately want a fluffy Wyle E Coyote Skyre army. But tabletop efficiency usually outweighs wacky fun.

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

17 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Yeah well you haven’t heard of the Doom brigade!

Can confirm, super fun. I'll whip out my double Whylrblade Threshnik enginecoven for 4 doomwheels! As for Leeroy strategies in general, this one always puts a smile on my opponents face instead of a a feels bad. 

[Ineffectual Clawlord]

On 1/7/2020 at 8:39 PM, The Red King said:

Skreech Verminking

Grey seer on bell

 Clawlord on Brood Horror ×2

Clan rats×40

Clan rats ×40

Stormvermin×40

Clawhorde batallion

Extra CP

 

Alternatively I can drop the extra CP and 20 stormfiends and bring 2 claw hordes with four min sized clanrats and two 10 man stormvermin squads. Same number of CP, one less drop and one more relic. Doesn't seem worth the loss of their horde bonuses though.

 

Thoughts on traits and artifacts? I was thinking Things-bane and Brutal Fury on one clawlord and Verminous Valour on the other. Then Master of Magic and maybe Aetherquartz brooch to keep those CP flowing or Skavenbrew to try to stack obscene numbers of attacks on the storms. 

 

Is this casually playable at least against even mildly competitive armies? I like it for being thematic looking and what I have available mostly.

 

It's not that Verminus units are bad, it's simply that they cost too much, both when compared to other options inside as well as outside our battletome. I'd drop one Clawlord, and put Verminous Valor (+ ethereal amulet if you are really concerned) on him. If you want to use Skreetch, I'd spend the points on a Grey Seer to Skitterleap him turn 1 to get in range for his spell, possibly another endless spell like Vermintide. Just take care to actually block the summoned rats instead of providing a charge target and extra movement for your opponent. 😉

Also, a couple of pages back there has been a discussion about whether a Clawlord on Brood Horror is a valid choice for Clawhorde. I still consider it to be the case, but maybe be prepared for the question should it appear.

On 1/9/2020 at 10:58 AM, Darkhan said:

This has probably been answered before. But here we go again.

For some reason I always ate a token before a cast roll (reason I do not remember). But reading the rules again, it does not say that you have to eat it at the start of the hero phase. Does this mean! That I can cast a spell with a regular warlock engineer, and if it fails, I can then decide to eat a token to reroll that spell?

 

As others have stated, the argument is that throughout the book the "subphases"-doctrine had been established. Whenever they specifically want you to use an ability before another, the start-phase-construction is used. Therefore, it is at least valid to eat it after your roll, in the same way as using e.g. the Deceiver CA after you rolled the wounds (unless I am missing an FAQ?).

On 1/10/2020 at 11:43 AM, Obeisance said:

How do you guys think competitive Skaven is going to trend post the nerfs/changes we received? I'm interested to see the results from whatever the next big event is.

Still good, but more middle-of-the-road-good than before. It's good to see that the wrinkles that made Skaven ridiculous at release have been ironed out.

The issue is currently that Skaven are essentially stale. If you look at lists from the release, the same units that are used now are to be found. Besides the initial point drops for Stormvermin (500pt being rather absurd) and Ratlings, nothing has been done to encourage diversity and internal balance.

Arguments can be made for units that provide some utility (e.g. Doomwheels), but others, like Rat Ogors have one purpose: dealing damage, and other units simply do it better for less points.

Apart from that, we have no allies, the mercenary companies are ... bland, the meta hasn't significantly shifted in any direction. So, list building stays the same, centered on a couple of archetype (Fiends/ Jezzail shooting/ Horde/Magice). This is vastly better than many other factions, mind you, and I certainly can't complain as there are still a lot of fun lists around. I have a lot of fun with my "Smashbros", Deceiver and Warpgnaw, leaping around the field, all jolly and ******.

 

The new Tzeentch tome looks delightful though, and I might just unpack my old 40k Tzaangors, and craft some Chaos spawn.

[The Red King]

I appreciate the reply but I'm wondering, I already have a grey seer in the list so do you think it's still worth dropping a clawlord to squeeze in the vermintide? Alternatively is an endless spell worth dropping the extra CP? I hadn't considered the summoned clanrats offering a movement boost to my opponent and screening out with vermintide does sound effective.

[Ineffectual Clawlord]

4 hours ago, The Red King said:

I appreciate the reply but I'm wondering, I already have a grey seer in the list so do you think it's still worth dropping a clawlord to squeeze in the vermintide? Alternatively is an endless spell worth dropping the extra CP? I hadn't considered the summoned clanrats offering a movement boost to my opponent and screening out with vermintide does sound effective.

You didn't mention the spells in your list, so I just assumed you took Death Frenzy, which is what lets Skaven compete in melee. Pretty much what I cooked up was this:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Skaventide
Mortal Realm: Shyish
Skaven Clawlord on Brood Horror (180)
- Mighty Warlord Command Trait: Verminous Valour
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (240)
- General
- Trait: Master of Magic
- Lore of Ruin: Death Frenzy
Grey Seer (140)
- Lore of Ruin: Skitterleap
Lord Skreech Verminking (320)
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Blade
40 x Stormvermin (450)
- Halberd & Shield
Claw-horde (180)
Extra Command Point (50)
Vermintide (40)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 158
 

Obviously you should fine tune it to your local meta (e.g. Ignax's Scales over Ethereal if you face a lot of MW) and to your liking (e.g. Cunning is unreliable, but gives you some additional CP). @Skreech Verminking likes Warpflamers; a Doomwheel, fighty Verminlord, cheap shooting etc. are all options you can play around with later on.

The Clawlord is very survivable by default (not a monster, so look-out-sir! applies), but putting him in combat still means that your positioning can be awkward as your other troops are deceptively mobile. This is the additional benefit of Skitterleap, besides 1st turn shenanigans, as it allows in-combat repositioning.

For Skreetch, his spell is amazing, but what you do with the summoned Clanrats is really dependent on the board. If you only get 2 and can't block anything, you can always position them to the side and threaten backline objectives in conjunction with other mobile elements (Skreetch primarily). It's very versatile, and Skreetch is actually a good unit. For me, I never use him outside of Bell-summoning because he doesn't do anything I absolutely need, like battleshock-immunity, and I always find myself strapped for points.

 

[The Red King]

That was a lot of really good info and I see what you're saying now.

Doesn't Skreech get to pick a lore spell meaning he could be his own skitterleap or death frenzy caster?

[Vesper]

Next time I play I'm taking this @Gwendar

 

[Ineffectual Clawlord]

43 minutes ago, The Red King said:

That was a lot of really good info and I see what you're saying now.

Doesn't Skreech get to pick a lore spell meaning he could be his own skitterleap or death frenzy caster?

Verminlords don't get to pick a spell from the lore of ruin, unfortunately, as they aren't Grey Seers.

[The Red King]

12 minutes ago, Ineffectual Clawlord said:

Verminlords don't get to pick a spell from the lore of ruin, unfortunately, as they aren't Grey Seers.

Doh!

 

I'm coming from Cities and Sylvaneth so I completely blanked.

[Gwendar]

@Vesper Largely what I run with, though I typically rub a Bell, WLV and Bridge. 2 Engineers over the single AW for redundancy is nice to have. Likewise, you running Warpseer is great for BS coverage but not starting with a CP is scary if you aren't careful.

Just make sure you deploy properly against armies that can probably outdrop you and charge you T1 and without that BS immunity you could lose your screens, so always premeasure and ask questions about their units threat ranges if you don't already know.

Otherwise, curious to hear how it goes.

[Death1942]

10 hours ago, Vesper said:

Next time I play I'm taking this @Gwendar

 

I played a shooty list similar to this but it was way worse.  I think based on that game I would say you definitely have enough screens to cause people problems.  I won the game by getting into his Jezzails and warp lightning cannons on turn 2 so he was struggling to shoot.  If you can block out your opponent long enough the stormfiends and Jezzails will probably wipe out almost any threat.

[Vesper]

11 hours ago, Gwendar said:

@Vesper Largely what I run with, though I typically rub a Bell, WLV and Bridge. 2 Engineers over the single AW for redundancy is nice to have. Likewise, you running Warpseer is great for BS coverage but not starting with a CP is scary if you aren't careful.

Just make sure you deploy properly against armies that can probably outdrop you and charge you T1 and without that BS immunity you could lose your screens, so always premeasure and ask questions about their units threat ranges if you don't already know.

Otherwise, curious to hear how it goes.

The other option is to drop three of the jezzails and upgrade the grey seer to a screaming bell. Then use the last forty points to take vermintide. Put it somewhere it'll ****** with movement.

[Heaven_lord]

Hi,

I want to start a Skaven army for 1k pts games (mostly for doubles). Would you have ideas of low count model lists (Clan Skyre?) to share?

Thanks!

[Skreech Verminking]

1 hour ago, Heaven_lord said:

Hi,

I want to start a Skaven army for 1k pts games (mostly for doubles). Would you have ideas of low count model lists (Clan Skyre?) to share?

Thanks!

3units of stormfiends: 780p

1 Arch warlock: 160p

1 Ratling gun weapon team: 60p

Total: 1000points

or 

1bombardier:120p

1warblightning cannon:180p

1Doomwheel:160p

3Stormfiends:260p

3Stormfiends: 260p

total: 980p

or anything else you’d like to take into your low morde l count skryre army 

[Heaven_lord]

Thanks

2 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

3units of stormfiends: 780p

1 Arch warlock: 160p

1 Ratling gun weapon team: 60p

Total: 1000points

or 

1bombardier:120p

1warblightning cannon:180p

1Doomwheel:160p

3Stormfiends:260p

3Stormfiends: 260p

total: 980p

or anything else you’d like to take into your low morde l count skryre army 

Hey, thanks for your reply. I really like your second list ! Is this list also good for meeting engagement games?

Would you have artifacts/warlord traits to suggest for the bombardier ?

[Darkhan]

On 1/10/2020 at 10:28 PM, Obeisance said:

There's a guy at my tournament today who will be unveiling a heavily converted Warpcog Convocation. I'll take pics for you guys.

I desperately want a fluffy Wyle E Coyote Skyre army. But tabletop efficiency usually outweighs wacky fun.

Where are those pictures!;p

[Gwendar]

5 hours ago, Vesper said:

The other option is to drop three of the jezzails and upgrade the grey seer to a screaming bell. Then use the last forty points to take vermintide. Put it somewhere it'll ****** with movement.

Eh, I wouldn't do that. Like I said, you just need to be mindful of deployment and understanding threat ranges to ensure you aren't getting a whole unit of Clanrats wiped by a T1 charge when you don't have a CP available.

I will say, if anyone is interested in some deployment talk, The Honest Wargamer did a nice talk about the subject and it was worth a watch for anyone competitively minded: 

 

[Obeisance]

8 hours ago, Darkhan said:

Where are those pictures!;p

I forgot to take photos at all.

The guy won best painted. It was a Skryre/Skitarri conversion.

Here's a photo the TO posted.

[Skreech Verminking]

19 hours ago, Gwendar said:

Eh, I wouldn't do that. Like I said, you just need to be mindful of deployment and understanding threat ranges to ensure you aren't getting a whole unit of Clanrats wiped by a T1 charge when you don't have a CP available.

I am actually banging for my meatshield screen to die-die in turn 1

it basically gives me the option to scurry-pile into the enemy with my stormvermins or plague monks, who are then able to basically attack with no damage taken.

although I’m usually hoping to deny the next turn for my opponent. In such cases.
 

or give it to them unless they have a unit that can snipe those still barely alive clanrats or even attack in the hero phase again.

[Gwendar]

6 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

I am actually banging for my meatshield screen to die-die in turn 1

it basically gives me the option to scurry-pile into the enemy with my stormvermins or plague monks, who are then able to basically attack with no damage taken.

although I’m usually hoping to deny the next turn for my opponent. In such cases.
 

or give it to them unless they have a unit that can snipe those still barely alive clanrats or even attack in the hero phase again.

Right, and that works for melee based armies quite well. See Blood Sisters or Enlightened attacking over top their respective screens while they're just 2" behind them. 

But when I have mostly shooting, I'm aiming to keep those screens\objective holders alive as long as possible. And yeah, as you said, the double pile-in can be detrimental so you have to watch out for that.. and a lot of the armies that can do that are also fastest (Terrorgheist with run + charge, Keeper of Secrets, etc) and capable of T1 charges. Hell, even IJ getting into you with those double Maw-Krusha + Pigs lists can charge you T1 and when smashing & bashing goes off, it can wipe out your front line in (effectively) one go.

[Skreech Verminking]

2 hours ago, Gwendar said:

Right, and that works for melee based armies quite well. See Blood Sisters or Enlightened attacking over top their respective screens while they're just 2" behind them. 

But when I have mostly shooting, I'm aiming to keep those screens\objective holders alive as long as possible. And yeah, as you said, the double pile-in can be detrimental so you have to watch out for that.. and a lot of the armies that can do that are also fastest (Terrorgheist with run + charge, Keeper of Secrets, etc) and capable of T1 charges. Hell, even IJ getting into you with those double Maw-Krusha + Pigs lists can charge you T1 and when smashing & bashing goes off, it can wipe out your front line in (effectively) one go.

Yeah but thankfully my knowledge of the all the enemy-things, scurry-fighting out there, is immense.

Fighting against so many different players with their different types of armies and play-style, can really be helpful when it comes down to deployment.

[Cosmicsheep]

Got my first match up against Tzeentch tomorrow having never played them before. I can’t decide how to play against them.

My starting list is:

120 Clanrats

6 Stormfiends (can’t decide between flamers or launchers)

6 jezzails

1 engineer 

Then, I either add Thanquol for some magic unbinding, or bell + Abom for magic resistance ?

Thoughts please 🤔

Edited January 15, 2020 by Cosmicsheep
Typo

[Darkhan]

1 hour ago, Cosmicsheep said:

Got my first match up against Tzeentch tomorrow having never played them before. I can’t decide how to play against them.

My starting list is:

120 Clanrats

6 Stormfiends (can’t decide between flamers or launchers)

6 jezzails

1 engineer 

Then, I either add Thanquol for some magic unbinding, or bell + Abom for magic resistance ?

Thoughts please 🤔

If he got flamers, running changehost, they will WRECK things in T1 if he decides to send in flamers and bomb you.
Only way I have been theorycrafting to avoid this, is during deployment, "sacrifice" 1 units of clanrats, making a screen for the rest of the army, flamers will port in 9" from the line, they got 18" reach, make sure if have the rest of the army 9" behind that front clanrats meat shield unit.

You turn, burn them away with stormfiends.

 The flamers are EVIL! Two mates of mine played yesterday, Tzeentch vs cities. 9 flamers totally annihilated 20 phoenix guard turn 1, and PG even got a 4+ aftersave😳😳😳

Edited January 15, 2020 by Darkhan
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