AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion

[Skreech Verminking]

3 hours ago, Kirjava13 said:

Why not just take the Engineer down to 90, like, say the Hag Queen, who is a much more survivable and valuable character? Instead the Bombardier is now 20 more points than a Slaughter Queen! I can only assume someone in the rules department came in hungover, or high, or just mashed the keypad of a calculator at random.

Well then at least we can be assured that the next ghb will have a points decrease for our warlock bombardier.

I’ts funny how gw is trying to convince us players into buying their old metal over costed miniatures, that nobody ones.

[gronnelg]

16 hours ago, Ineffectual Clawlord said:

Try to approach this from the perspective of the OBR player. Pretty much everything that Skaven normally bring is really scary, except for Plague Monks, and Crawlers are the only real answer against most of the threats. They are a good unit that is exceptional against Skaven. In your list however, his one or two catapults have to: kill the AW, Warpfire throwers and SF. They also want to shoot the SV and maybe kill some Clanrats to protect objectives.

You can either just take the damage and ignore the catapults, or change your list in order take a counter unit (Doomwheel, Deceiver, Gutter Runners, Pistoleers, Warpgrinder...) and force him to put Guards there to protect it. If you put one or two offensive Gnawholes, depending on the scenario, that's already a lot of board space to protect for your opponent.

 You can take a look at this damage table. Yes, prayers increase their damage by a lot, and it can put out a surprising number of mortal wounds. However, Bells are just great for their price and I prefer them both for the aura and thematic reasons.

Death Frenzy is the only spell you need from the lore of ruin, Warpgale or Plague are just nice things to have.

Both are popular options, but it's not mandatory as PM are great even without buffs.

 

Those are some very valid points! So I guess unless he goes all in on the crawlers I should be able to cope. Also an insightful point about crawlers being good in general, but very good against Skaven. In tournament settings an OBR player would still have to make a balanced all round list, and not go all in on crawlers.

[Laststand]

On 12/10/2019 at 7:24 PM, Laststand said:

Played a Christmas 3,000pt game today v khorne. Practically my whole collection on the table and despite the fact I don't have any verminlords and my plague monks are still in a box I managed to chew chew chew through most of his army including taking down 4 bloodthirsters (including Skarbrand). 

List/review up in a day or two when my brain is less fuzzy or you can watch it soon on the Log Cabin Gaming youtube channel. 

I didnt manage to write up a report in the end as I kept finding gaps in my notes but the batrep is up so you can watch at your leisure.

 My list was:

Allegiance: Skaventide

Leaders
Arch-Warlock (160)
- General
- Trait: Deranged Inventor
- Artefact: Vigordust Injector
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (220)
- Lore of Ruin: Death Frenzy
Master Moulder (100)
Thanquol on Boneripper (400)
- Lore of Ruin: Warpgale
Warlock Engineer (100)
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Battleline
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Spear
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Spear
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Spear
20 x Clanrats (120)
- Rusty Spear
Units
6 x Rat Ogors (300)
1 x Ratling Gun (60)
6 x Stormfiends (520)
6 x Warplock Jezzails (280)
War Machines
Doomwheel (160)
Warp Lightning Cannon (180)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Vermintide (40)

Total: 3000 / 3000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 500
Wounds: 213
 

[W33daxe]

I was sort of hoping for Plaguemonks to go up a base size.
Their are my favourite unit in the whole Chaos range, but after having seen them in Vermintide 2, I really want them to be bigger.
I wouldn´t mind a little tweak to the Plagueclaws neither, they can be a "bit" swingy to say the least.
Still, when they hit a big blob of models they can really do some damage. Problem is they rarely hit  

[Darkhan]

My favourite list was with 9 stormfiends, DAMNIT!!!
I could still sneak them to "act" like 9...one unit of 6 and one unit of 3, MMWP the 6 for rerolling everything, Deranged Inventor to make the 3 re-roll hits.
May avoid overkilling stuff, but still...DAMNIT!!! I was super fond of 9 stormfiends.

[Bald Guy Gaming]

That was a bit of  a bummer. the bell at 240 is still pretty great but it's pricey enough that I'm considering what else I could have in my list for that 240. I just swapped Bombardiers for regular engineers though...not like the damn bombardier ever hit anything with his rocket...

I'm actually starting to think of taking the Bell of Doom for potential battleshock mitigation, or just buying a command point.  I feel like the warpseer and bell are getting too pricey at this point to be as auto-include as they once were.

[Coyote]

Still no Updated Plague Monk Warscroll?

[Clinch]

One thing that surprises me with the point changes that are out so far at least, is that there were (for all factions combined) 4 units that were made more expensive, and around 40 that were made cheaper. All 4 of the ones made more expensive belong to Skaven, and 0 of the 40ish made cheaper belong to Skaven. I'd have liked to see more of an incentive to bring units that see no play whatsoever, similarly as what they did for some other factions.

[Skreech Verminking]

34 minutes ago, Coyote said:

Still no Updated Plague Monk Warscroll?

Nop it is still not up yet, unless they haven't changed a thing with the plague monk warscroll

11 minutes ago, Clinch said:

One thing that surprises me with the point changes that are out so far at least, is that there were (for all factions combined) 4 units that were made more expensive, and around 40 that were made cheaper. All 4 of the ones made more expensive belong to Skaven, and 0 of the 40ish made cheaper belong to Skaven. I'd have liked to see more of an incentive to bring units that see no play whatsoever, similarly as what they did for some other factions.

Yeah, I was actually hoping for a few points reduction.

for example units like night runners, Doom flayers (especially this one) Doomwheels, Stormvermins, warlock engineers, rat swarm (although a max. Pointsreduction would do probably) and almost all battalions are literally just overcosted.

I really would have loved seeing a few pointsreduction for those units, especially the never used battalions.

Well I guess this just means we’ll have another year to look forward to 

Edited December 17, 2019 by Skreech Verminking

[Gwendar]

7 hours ago, gronnelg said:

Those are some very valid points! So I guess unless he goes all in on the crawlers I should be able to cope. Also an insightful point about crawlers being good in general, but very good against Skaven. In tournament settings an OBR player would still have to make a balanced all round list, and not go all in on crawlers.

Except a lot of OBR players are bringing 2 Crawlers, though I expect this to be more limited in the future; they're good, but not against everything like other options. Honestly, their bread and butter lies within the Mortek Guard and spamming those with a lot of RDP for their CA's is likely the best thing to do.


As for the above, yeah 9 Stormfiends is a bummer, but I think coupling that with nothing else in the army getting a decrease is what was lackluster. But honestly, I think that was the case for almost all of the changes. So many factions got changes to things that aren't used and will continue to not be used due to their function, how it fits within typical lists, etc (DoK are a good example) so overall I really think this pass of FAQ's was pretty 'meh' for almost everyone and not much is going to change... aside from Slaanesh getting nerfed which I'm 100% okay with..

..Now if we could just get our updated Monk scroll...

[Zanzou]

13 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Well then at least we can be assured that the next ghb will have a points decrease for our warlock bombardier.

I’ts funny how gw is trying to convince us players into buying their old metal over costed miniatures, that nobody ones.

What do you mean, acolytes are a steal! /s 😒

[Verminlord]

Here's a moulder list I'm working on:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Skaventide
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Leaders
Thanquol on Boneripper (400)
- General
Master Moulder (100)
- Artefact: Ignax's Scales

Battleline
20 x Giant Rats (120)
20 x Giant Rats (120)
2 x Rat Ogors (100)

Units
3 x Packmasters (60)
6 x Stormfiends (520)


Behemoths
Hell Pit Abomination (240)

Battalions
Fleshmeld Menagerie (160)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Soulscream Bridge (80)
Aethervoid Pendulum (50)

Total: 1950 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 120

I lose an artifact and a trait with thanquol, but this list is really an excuse to buy and use him /shrug. 

I'm not sure if I should do msu giant rats for respawnable speed bumps or take the 20s for more wounds.

Also considerring taking another unit of giant rats or ogors instead of soulscream bridge.

How are people equipping their stormfiends? ratlings and warpfire and...?

[Death1942]

13 hours ago, Gwendar said:

As for the above, yeah 9 Stormfiends is a bummer, but I think coupling that with nothing else in the army getting a decrease is what was lackluster. But honestly, I think that was the case for almost all of the changes. So many factions got changes to things that aren't used and will continue to not be used due to their function, how it fits within typical lists, etc (DoK are a good example) so overall I really think this pass of FAQ's was pretty 'meh' for almost everyone and not much is going to change... aside from Slaanesh getting nerfed which I'm 100% okay with..

Honestly this has been the last 2 FAQs plus the handbook.  Small drops to units no one was taking (hello Blood Knights and Turtles) doesn't actually impact them as they needed to drop by a much much larger amount and it seems like GW would rather take the slow and steady approach instead.  I wouldn't get frustrated that [insert your faction here] didn't drop enough points for those units, it seems to be universal across all the armies.

One of the big reasons for me not pulling the trigger on Skaven atm is a lot of my favourite units/models are the rubbish ones that are too expensive for what they do.  I genuinely don't understand what any of the assassins are supposed to do?  Their scrolls seem trash.

Edited December 18, 2019 by Death1942

[Ineffectual Clawlord]

Bombardier: one of the overall nerfs to the faction as every mixed list that didn't use an AW used a Bombardier. Now they will use an Engineer.

I only ever picked him over an AW to babysit a unit of Jezzails. Therefore, he got a shot off maybe once or twice per game and in most situations an Engineer would have been in range as well. He killed 8 skinks once though. More relevant for the Fiend lists that ran with two, as I they now miss out on some damage.

Bell/Warpseer: this is a more or less big nerf to pretty much every list. It definitely disincentivizes 4 Bell, 200 model lists, but for most creates a 20-40 point tax. They are still good at this price level, but many lists will probably go from two to one bells, depending on how much you have that is susceptible to battleshock and you care about. 

As I will continue running two Bells, this means that I'll have to shift around endless spells a bit and probably try alternatives to Geminids.

Deceiver: the price increase is just a continuation of GW's vendetta against clan Eshin. It found some popularity recently, primarily as a Gnawhole vehicle to transport Monks or Fiends. I'm really puzzled by this decision.

Fiends: speaking of strange decisions, it's not as if 9 SF lists outperformed 6 SF lists. If anything the 6er lists were a bit more consistent, as the additional unit of Monks proved a greater buffer in case of being double turned by an alpha strike list.

My speculation would be that 9er lists proved too much of a negative play experience, as being double turned by such a list could mean a quick end to the game. However, the same would be true for every other high damage list out there. I'm sure reasons existed.

 

[Ineffectual Clawlord]

8 hours ago, Verminlord said:

Thanquol on Boneripper (400)
Master Moulder (100)
- Artefact: Ignax's Scales
20 x Giant Rats (120)
20 x Giant Rats (120)
2 x Rat Ogors (100)

3 x Packmasters (60)
6 x Stormfiends (520)

Hell Pit Abomination (240)
Fleshmeld Menagerie (160)

Soulscream Bridge (80)
Aethervoid Pendulum (50)

Stormfiends without Skryre buffs are a waste of points (maybe a bit harsh).  With Moulder i feel that you have two options,

a) play the units you like in mixed Skaven. Typically this means that you choose your melee hammers from Moulder while still keeping some shooting, Clanrats and the option of Bell/Warpseer.

b) Fleshmeld 1/2 drop. If you go down this route, you should embrace the thing that's actually decent about it: possibly respawning large packs and buffing with heroes, Death Frenzy and Rabid Crown. Using CP's to bring back 10 Giant Rats is a waste.

Get groups of Rat Ogors/Wolf Rats/Giant Rats and focus on these.

As you have no way of increasing charges, the 9" charge form bridge, even with re-rolls, is only a 50-50 chance. Maybe try out cogs instead?

6 hours ago, Death1942 said:

I genuinely don't understand what any of the assassins are supposed to do?

Sword of Judgment Deathmasters are an option. Not a reliable option, but it is a way to get use out of him.

Having used my ration of optimism for the day, I agree that some units definitely can't be used in the way that GW obviously intended them. At best, they provide some utility for the army, e.g. 5 Gutter Runners.

On 12/17/2019 at 11:20 AM, Darkhan said:

I could still sneak them to "act" like 9...one unit of 6 and one unit of 3, MMWP the 6 for rerolling everything, Deranged Inventor to make the 3 re-roll hits.

I feel the better option is to use the 260 points to better accentuate the range you want to focus on. I.e. either go further long range with 6 Jezzails or a WLC or focus on short range with 20 Acolytes (assuming you get them into range, even with DI they'll do enough damage) or 3-4 Ratlings (overseer).

 

Edited December 18, 2019 by Ineffectual Clawlord

[Nezzhil]

Plague Monks new Warscroll

Edited December 18, 2019 by Nezzhil

[MisterJoshua]

I actually quite like that change...

I'm still not sure where you're getting it from though. On the official site and from your links I only get the old scroll.

Edited December 18, 2019 by MisterJoshua

[Darkhan]

1 minute ago, MisterJoshua said:

I actually quite like that change...

No rend, no re-rolling hits for blades.

[MisterJoshua]

5 minutes ago, Darkhan said:

No rend, no re-rolling hits for blades.

From a usability point of view. Also with staves you now wound on 4s and get to attack twice at 2" range. And blades are swapping re-rolls for +1 to hit. I'm not saying it's better (it's almost certainly mathematically worse), but they've not been nerfed to the ground. I'll still be giving them a try.

Edited December 18, 2019 by MisterJoshua

[Umjammerlama]

Where did you get the warscroll from?

[Laststand]

Summary of changes to the plague monk scroll.

Rend and extra damage gone, rerolls with blades out and changed to 3+ to hit instead of 4+. 

New add in is extra wound for each wound roll of 6.

Weapon choices changed so you can only have blades or staves (that will upset a lot of people with monks built with both)

Staves +1 attack

Standard bearers and harbringers changed to 1 in 10 from 1 in 20. 

This will certainly be different (and quicker) to play. The unit is still very powerful but now good in smaller units of 20 rather than blocks of 40.

I think this is quite well thought out rather than a complete points nerf which would have killed of clan pestilence armies. 

I am sure some clever Rat will do the math on the damage output changes but maybe 20-25%?

 

 

 

[Asamu]

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/AoS_Skaven_Warscroll_card_Plague_Monks.pdf

Some math:
Blades work out to a ~11% nerf baseline, but they can benefit from the verminlord corruptor ability, in which case it's a slight buff, not taking into account the rend on 6s to hit from before.

Woe staves work out pretty much the same with no buffs on the unit if you have 3 models deep swinging (IE: 1/3 of the models swinging are not within 1" of the target), but worse if the unit is swinging less than that (if all models are within 1", it's a ~25% nerf, before accounting for any bonuses). They also lost the extra attack for woe staves on the charge with only 1 attack profile now, and get less benefit from re-rolls to wound, bonus attacks, and horde bonuses.

As far as maximum possible output, it's a pretty heavy nerf to Woe staves (from ~6.62 per model to ~3.95 per model, with just +2 attacks and full re-rolls from prayers, the command ability, and charging), and a slight buff to blades (from ~3.95/model to ~4.32/model), but the loss of rend on 6s to hit probably evens out the maximum output for blades.

Overall, I think they're still a pretty strong unit, but they no longer have the potential to put out totally unreasonable amounts of damage (Though ~4 damage/model at no rend is still extremely good).

Edited December 18, 2019 by Asamu

[Ineffectual Clawlord]

(30+ bonuses applied, damage per model)

Blades

Save   Old Charge  New Charge Old no charge  New no charge

2          .46                .35                  .31                   .25

3          .83               .69                   .56                   .46

4          1.2               1.04                .8                      .69

5          1.57             1.39                1.05                 .93

6          1.94             1.74                 1.3                   1.16

-            2.22            2.08                 1.48                 1.39

 

Edit: the staff damage was missing the exploding 6s. The accurate data can be found here.

Thanks to Cosmicsheep to pointing this out.

(I did use https://aos-statshammer.herokuapp.com/ created by . Marvelous work!)

 

Edited December 19, 2019 by Ineffectual Clawlord

[Chase]

I like the changes personally. It really simplifies their combat. Which can be unfun for both parties. They're still glass cannons capable of serious damage. For all you math hammers out there it would be interesting to see how they differ in total output. It's likely a chunk less but I doubt too much.

[Darkhan]

9 minutes ago, Laststand said:

Summary of changes to the plague monk scroll.

Rend and extra damage gone, rerolls with blades out and changed to 3+ to hit instead of 4+. 

New add in is extra wound for each wound roll of 6.

Weapon choices changed so you can only have blades or staves (that will upset a lot of people with monks built with both)

Staves +1 attack

Standard bearers and harbringers changed to 1 in 10 from 1 in 20. 

This will certainly be different (and quicker) to play. The unit is still very powerful but now good in smaller units of 20 rather than blocks of 40.

I think this is quite well thought out rather than a complete points nerf which would have killed of clan pestilence armies. 

I am sure some clever Rat will do the math on the damage output changes but maybe 20-25%?

 

 

 

•  

Imo, you still want them in 40, since the removed the rerolling hits:/

So you get the +1 hit +1 wound buff.