AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion

[Tomtor]

Hey! I'm thinking of expanding my Skaven army, but can't decide between adding a unit of Stormfiends (in order to have 6) or a Verminlord (the warbringer and the deceiver look pretty cool) what do you guys recommend?

[Skreech Verminking]

52 minutes ago, Tomtor said:

Hey! I'm thinking of expanding my Skaven army, but can't decide between adding a unit of Stormfiends (in order to have 6) or a Verminlord (the warbringer and the deceiver look pretty cool) what do you guys recommend?

No idea actually.

i think bumping up your unit of stormfiend to 6 isn’t a bad option especially if you’re participating at a or more tournaments in the near future.

as for a more fun approach I think another verminlord isn’t bad either.

could be fun to summon one with your bell.

[Thalassic Monstrosity]

8 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

I think it is.

although it always depends what direction your going with your army theme.

for some one who wants to go mixed skaven or is just starting out with them this boxset will be a fantastic start into the game

as for somebody who wants to just add a few more models, it isn’t a bad option either

Thanks!

I don't have a Verminlord, Screaming Bell, or a Warp-lightning cannon so I was pretty interested in the boxes set. And extra Clanrats are always nice.

Damn, I think I sold myself on it.

[Thalassic Monstrosity]

How long should the Christmas battleforce stay available?

[Gwendar]

2 hours ago, Thalassic Monstrosity said:

How long should the Christmas battleforce stay available?

Until they run out is the shortest answer. These sets are made in batches like other boxed sets and once they're gone, that's it.. so really it will just depend on popularity.

[Thalassic Monstrosity]

1 hour ago, Gwendar said:

Until they run out is the shortest answer. These sets are made in batches like other boxed sets and once they're gone, that's it.. so really it will just depend on popularity.

Thanks! Here's hoping my LGS holds on to a copy!

[Coyote]

$200 is hard for me to wrap my head around for the battlebox, it’s like the same price as 20 Clanrats + Verminlord + Plague Monk / Plague furnace box.   I don’t see a price break - it’s good for anyone looking to start - it’s all right there, but no real advantage to expand because - for me - there’s no price break.  

And no Bombadier.

Back to my needs though, a question from your weakest and most obedient and trustworthy ally-

How would you plan to play this list?

List for tomorrow for a mini tournament  (I saw on Facebook)

x5 units of 40 Clanrats (!)

(General- Corruptor w, Master of Magic

, Clawlord w. Powerful

Grey Seer we. Bell - Skavenbrew and Death Frenzy,

Grey Seer with Skitterleap) and

Warp LightningVortex,

Geminids (never used before) and  

Prismatic Palisade (never used before)

[Gwendar]

@Coyote No, but to me, these holiday boxes are generally just bigger SC boxes aimed at starting a new army. Sometimes they can be good for expanding but.. I dunno, I've never considered them worth it as I only buy what I need and I have a guy that gives me a 30% discount anyway which makes bulk buying specific stuff a lot easier.

5x40 Clanrats? I think Skreech is the one to talk to for that 😉

Otherwise, I would swap the Corruptor. For the same price you could use a Warbringer that would (in my opinion) be a far better addition overall for an army like this. Unless of course you wanted to bring some Monks and drop some Clanrats.

[Coyote]

I’m just not sold on the Tyrant of Battle, vs Great Manipulators, and Forth, Forth Children of the Rat.

i haven’t had much success with Death Frenzy (yet) vs Warpgale giving the mortals and limiting movement a little.

[Gwendar]

@Coyote You're talking about the Warpseer then, which I would agree with as I prefer him overall.. but the Corruptor (which is what that list has) would be worse in a mainly Verminous list such as that one and the Warbringer would be the better choice between the two.

Still, I wouldn't discount RR 1's for hit and wound stacked with the Clawlords extra attack. The RR's also benefit the Warbringer, just something to keep in mind... but again, overall I would almost always pick the Warpseer for utility as the CP generation coupled with the BS immunity is great.

Edited December 15, 2019 by Gwendar

[Ineffectual Clawlord]

I always feel that I lack the CP to use both the Warbringer and Clawlord abilities. The only real generating ability comes from the Warpseer, and he needs them for himself.

A Masterclan battalion would be nice to help out ...😪

[Skavelynn]

If plague monks get another points increase nerf, do you think we'll be seeing more stormvermin being played? Stormvermin getting their horde discount decreased to 420 or 400 would be nice too, I'm just kinda tired of seeing plague monks constantly 😅

[Death1942]

Hobby question:  I am considering diving into Skaven but was always daunted by the prospect of painting fur and a million clan rats.  Anyone had an experience with the contrast paints?  Does it speed up the process immensely and are the results good?

[Gwendar]

59 minutes ago, Skavelynn said:

Stormvermin getting their horde discount decreased to 420 or 400 would be nice

I think that would be one of the only ways, especially if Monks go up a good amount. I don't really want to build anything else, but I would much prefer the aesthetic of Stormvermin anyway and would gladly do it if their price and gameplay reflected it.

Edited December 15, 2019 by Gwendar

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

@Death1942 An excellent question. If you happen to be a gamer first, hobbyist second, contrast paints are a great way for models to hit the table lookin' sharp. Contrast paints are easy to use and forgiving if you feel like you're making a mistake. As for time saving, if, again, the game comes first and you want table-top ready level of painting, I'd say that it will save you a decent amount of time and stress (the latter often refers to fearing mistakes or just starting a large project, which in turn makes you feel like you're painting slower).

Some practical advice in the mean time: Paint in batches of 10 to completion (at least at first) to ensure that you are satisfied with your comfort level of applying paint. This is especially important when testing a new "products" as paints often behave differently. I understand your urge to get a gazillion rats completed but you don't want a whole block of rats looking way different than the rest of your army because it took you 40 rats to realize what works for you. 

That said, I have a counter offer: Use your clanrats as a testing ground for the rest of your elite/hero models. The hobbyist in me feels obligated to steer you towards long term learning and improvement. The more you use contrast paints, the more likely you'll use them for the bigger, fancier models you get your hands on, which, by itself, is not a bad thing if that is your plan. When the time comes, you may decide that contrast paints aren't pushing the boundaries of how cool you can paint up those centerpiece models and once again you'll be stuck worrying about how to paint up fur, faces or create lighting effects. 

Frankly, I want to write a whole essay on this question. Painting clanrats was the very bedrock of getting into this game and this hobby in the first place. Hopefully this gives you some confidence. 

[gronnelg]

How does the following list looks against OBR? (he told me his list isn't super optimal)

 

Allegiance: Skaventide
Mortal Realm: Ghur

Leaders
Clawlord (100)
- Mighty Warlord Command Trait: Verminous Valour
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (220)
- General
- Trait: Master of Magic
- Lore of Ruin: Death Frenzy
Arch-Warlock (160)
- Artefact: Gryph-feather Charm
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!

Battleline
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Spear
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Spear
40 x Stormvermin (450)
- Halberd

Units
1 x Warpfire Thrower (70)
1 x Warpfire Thrower (70)
6 x Stormfiends (520)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 186

[Skreech Verminking]

On 12/15/2019 at 3:15 AM, Gwendar said:

5x40 Clanrats? I think Skreech is the one to talk to for that 😉

Who dares summon Us-us!!

Ah yes-yes something is search-looking for great wisdom! 
 

Well, 5 units of 40clanrats is a lot of bodies. Anybody using this list will soon notice how hard it will be to kill anything to crazily elite or heavily armored.

so not really something if your looking forward to killing anything in tour path of destruction.

what males the horde great though is the survivability and control of objectives.

sure there are a lot of Units that are capable of dealing damage like nothing (for example with elves, etc) but should you ever consider the onion formation with that army-list, you controlling almost all of the objective till turn 4-5will be undeniable possible, and very annoying for your opponent.

especially when he is one of those shooting meta list players, who really doesn’t want to fight anything that has more than a 100 models on the table,

or a Hedonites players who’s summoning points generating just became 0- fro

 the usual 50-100per turn, till she/he has fought here way through 200++ rats in the onion ring formation.

12 hours ago, Skavelynn said:

If plague monks get another points increase nerf, do you think we'll be seeing more stormvermin being played? Stormvermin getting their horde discount decreased to 420 or 400 would be nice too, I'm just kinda tired of seeing plague monks constantly 😅

If you’re asking me, my beloved stormvermins cost too much, even with the last update. 400points for them would be great.

 Although I hope that the min. Point value of 120 stays just because I don’t want to see the very small hordes of clanrats too be exchanged with possible much cheaper stormvermins, just that

some meta skaven list can spend another 40-60points of  on skryre tech.

Although If you’re asking me I really would love too see some huge  point decreases for our mostly useless battailons like the clawhorde or slinktallion, or the moulder thingie.

what would make the skaven even more interesting would be a battalion available in one of those white dwarfs, that would allow us to mixe a few clan units together.

5 minutes ago, gronnelg said:

How does the following list looks against OBR? (he told me his list isn't super optimal)

 

Allegiance: Skaventide
Mortal Realm: Ghur

Leaders
Clawlord (100)
- Mighty Warlord Command Trait: Verminous Valour
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (220)
- General
- Trait: Master of Magic
- Lore of Ruin: Death Frenzy
Arch-Warlock (160)
- Artefact: Gryph-feather Charm
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!

Battleline
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Spear
40 x Clanrats (200)
- Rusty Spear
40 x Stormvermin (450)
- Halberd

Units
1 x Warpfire Thrower (70)
1 x Warpfire Thrower (70)
6 x Stormfiends (520)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 186

Yeah, warpfire projectors, will probably be the biggest weakness those new poster dead-things will have.

having the possibility to destroy a full 20ma. Units of bonearmoured samurais equipped with the +1 save and rerolling save, will be devastating, especially when they all die through one volley.

Stormfiends aren’t a bad option either since they can deal a ton of damage and will probably take most of it, meaning that your warpflamers will be for the most part save.

with 80clanrats you’ll also be able to controll those pesky objective markers, and althoigh they aren’t the perfect killing unit, their ability in taking the charge and being expendable (cheap) will make them a perfect protective meatshield unit for any weapon team especially warpflamers.

and last but not least those stormvermins.

they are a fantastic killing unit, till they hit the 19models mark.

those are the troops you really want to hit anything big like stalkers, Nagash or any other big hero in your way.

just keep them out of harms way from any charging cavs. Or elite units.

but that shouldn’t be a problem when you have 2 units of expendable clanrats.

the clalword isn’t really much needed anymore, since his aura command ability of wholly within 13 will make him a hard  choice to take, but should you somehow convince your enemy that this little ****** could be his biggest problems, than great you have achieved something even I was unable to do in my previews battles

have a Clawlord killed😂.

[Ineffectual Clawlord]

14 hours ago, Skavelynn said:

If plague monks get another points increase nerf, do you think we'll be seeing more stormvermin being played? Stormvermin getting their horde discount decreased to 420 or 400 would be nice too, I'm just kinda tired of seeing plague monks constantly 😅

Made a blog post about which units were picked in tournament lists since the summer. There aren't a whole lot of surprises, but I wanted to put my feelings it into somewhat accurate numbers. About half of our units are picked more than 5% of the time, a third more than 15%.

Plague monks (PM) are used in 81% of mixed Skaven lists, Stormvermin (SV) in 8%. The underutilized clans definitely need some help, Verminus among them. Reducing SV to 400-420, Clawhorde to 130 and the Clawlord to 90 or something along those lines would definitely make it more viable.

PM by comparison need a warscroll simplification (e.g. no more Bale-chimes), not a cost increase. Pure Pestilens is already on the weaker sides of Skaven builds and would hurt them overly much, without addressing the problems generally complained about: sorting a hundred dice into four piles. 

As a word of caution however, because it isn't used in tournaments doesn't mean that a unit is bad. There is a lot of conservative thinking and herd mentality involved, as players generally don't want to lose and therefore err on the side of caution. Some units, like Warpfirethrowers, are good in certain matchups, bad in others. There isn't any point to bring them if more general options are worthwhile. 

A small number of units have objectively good warscrolls, but have been forgotten for different reasons (Wolf Rats: highly priced resin models...).

Edited December 16, 2019 by Ineffectual Clawlord

[gronnelg]

@Skreech VerminkingThanks for the feedback. I thought that since I was getting stormvermin (and clanrats), then the clawlord would be nice.  But as you see it, the clawlord doesn't add much to this list? I fear that the stormvermin will be ineffctive against mortek guards. In pretrifex I believe they get 3+ rerolling against melee? So even stormvermin buffed by the clawlord might not be enough. 
What scares me the most are mortek crawlers though. With the special attacks he could take out insane amounts of clanrats and stormvermin. And with their regular shoots minor heroes aren't safe. Which is why I gave my clawlord verminous valor, and buffer my warlock bombardier to an arch-warlock with gryph feather charm. I need the arch warlock alive to buff my stormfiends! To some extent I guess the warpfire throwers work as DISTRACTION CARNIFEX for the crawlers. Possible letting other important units survive another turn.

[gronnelg]

Guys - how do you feel about taking plague monks, without taking a plague furnace?

[Ineffectual Clawlord]

14 hours ago, Death1942 said:

Hobby question:  I am considering diving into Skaven but was always daunted by the prospect of painting fur and a million clan rats.  Anyone had an experience with the contrast paints?  Does it speed up the process immensely and are the results good?

I only tried two contrast paints and didn't enjoy them. It always looked like I did a bad job with the base paint and I ended up spending more time than I normally would have applying highlighting and glazes.

My advice is similar to @Riff_Raff_Rascal , as you should see Clanrats as an opportunity to try different techniques etc. Also, try to approach it with a positive mentality. If you approach your infantry as a chore, it will be a chore. Try to look at the models, as even basic Clanrats have a lot of character and show all that is fun about Skaven. I always like to add a Judas-rat that stabs the leader in the back, just to remind me never to trust my subordinates.

Even if you make "mistakes", there is nothing preventing you from coming back later to change your models. I never thought that I actually improved as a painter until I closely examined my earlier works and spend some time with them.

[Skreech Verminking]

1 hour ago, gronnelg said:

Guys - how do you feel about taking plague monks, without taking a plague furnace?

I’m not a big fan of Plague monks in total, but they should do fine by their own, even without the support of a plague furnace. Just don’t forget to add a wizard with deathfrenzy.

[Ineffectual Clawlord]

2 hours ago, gronnelg said:

@Skreech VerminkingThanks for the feedback. I thought that since I was getting stormvermin (and clanrats), then the clawlord would be nice.  But as you see it, the clawlord doesn't add much to this list? I fear that the stormvermin will be ineffctive against mortek guards. In pretrifex I believe they get 3+ rerolling against melee? So even stormvermin buffed by the clawlord might not be enough. 
What scares me the most are mortek crawlers though. With the special attacks he could take out insane amounts of clanrats and stormvermin. And with their regular shoots minor heroes aren't safe. Which is why I gave my clawlord verminous valor, and buffer my warlock bombardier to an arch-warlock with gryph feather charm. I need the arch warlock alive to buff my stormfiends! To some extent I guess the warpfire throwers work as DISTRACTION CARNIFEX for the crawlers. Possible letting other important units survive another turn.

Try to approach this from the perspective of the OBR player. Pretty much everything that Skaven normally bring is really scary, except for Plague Monks, and Crawlers are the only real answer against most of the threats. They are a good unit that is exceptional against Skaven. In your list however, his one or two catapults have to: kill the AW, Warpfire throwers and SF. They also want to shoot the SV and maybe kill some Clanrats to protect objectives.

You can either just take the damage and ignore the catapults, or change your list in order take a counter unit (Doomwheel, Deceiver, Gutter Runners, Pistoleers, Warpgrinder...) and force him to put Guards there to protect it. If you put one or two offensive Gnawholes, depending on the scenario, that's already a lot of board space to protect for your opponent.

2 hours ago, gronnelg said:

Guys - how do you feel about taking plague monks, without taking a plague furnace?

 You can take a look at this damage table. Yes, prayers increase their damage by a lot, and it can put out a surprising number of mortal wounds. However, Bells are just great for their price and I prefer them both for the aura and thematic reasons.

Death Frenzy is the only spell you need from the lore of ruin, Warpgale or Plague are just nice things to have.

Both are popular options, but it's not mandatory as PM are great even without buffs.

 

Edited December 16, 2019 by Ineffectual Clawlord

[Nezzhil]

The new errata said that the Plague Monks Warscroll changed... Could anyone said the changed? Thanks!

 

You can find the errata in the 40k Faqs

[Skavelynn]

Errata is up!

Verminlord Warpseer and Deceiver up 20 points to 320

Bombardier is now 120, more expensive than the engineer now

Stormfiends max unit size is only 6 now. I wonder how this will effect stormfiend lists

Plague Monks are getting a new warscroll which is still not up yet.