AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

8 hours ago, gronnelg said:

Can the Doomwheel run?

Oh indeed it can. 5d6+3 movement seems pretty sweet. That said, its shooting is godly, so best only run when you retreat. Which, by the way, is  almost better since you can maximize running over multiple units when your so close to their army. 

I haven't even mentioned the Vial of the Fulminator artifact. Double a War Machine's movement. Using GW math when you run it that's (5d6 x 2) +3 inches in the movement phase. Hot diggity. 

[Gwendar]

@Riff_Raff_Rascal Please stop. I've been done with all my Skaven stuff for a while now and I didn't intend to purchase more anytime soon. The more you talk about this the more I'm really really considering buying 2-3 more Doomwheels for this insanity.

Edited November 12, 2019 by Gwendar

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

@Gwendar I apologize in advance.

Your first response had me in stitches. 

[gronnelg]

A friend of mine is getting Bonereapers. What do you guys think about them? What is our key to defeating them, and *puts on shades* gnash-gnawing on their bones?

[Aelford]

So I'm torn between two lists for a little tournament next month. I need help choosing between them. Here they are. I quite like the idea of the Arch-Warlock on top of the Balewind Vortex just casting Chain Warp Lightning and Warp Lightning Storm, while trying to overload the Ratling Guns.

Arch-Warlock (160)
- Artefact: Ignax's Scales
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: Chain Warp Lightning
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (220)
- General
- Trait: Master of Magic
- Lore of Ruin: Death Frenzy
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (220)
- Lore of Ruin: Warpgale
30 x Stormvermin (360)
40 x Clanrats (200)
20 x Clanrats (120)
40 x Plague Monks (280)
6 x Ratling Gun (360)
Balewind Vortex (40)
The Burning Head (30)

Or -

Arch-Warlock (160)
- General
- Trait: Verminous Valour
- Artefact: Vigordust Injector
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
Grey Seer on Screaming Bell (220)
- Lore of Ruin: Death Frenzy
Warlock Bombardier (100)
- Lore of Warpvolt Galvanism: More-more-more Warp Power!
10 x Stormvermin (120)
20 x Clanrats (120)
20 x Clanrats (120)
40 x Plague Monks (280)
5 x Ratling Gun (300)
6 x Stormfiends (520)
The Burning Head (30)
Prismatic Palisade (30)

[gronnelg]

@AelfordI don't like stormvermin in either of these list. They're just so expensive. If you really want to go with them in the first list, I would bump  them up to 40, so they a least have a chance of retaining the +1 +1 until the first combat.  In the first list I would also rather go with overseer of destruction, since you're going so ratling heavy. Three ratling guns that can reroll hits (and eat warpstone sparks) will deal some pretty good damage! That means your acrh-warlock has to be mobile though, so I would consider dropping the balewind vortex.

[Skreech Verminking]

1 hour ago, gronnelg said:

A friend of mine is getting Bonereapers. What do you guys think about them? What is our key to defeating them, and *puts on shades* gnash-gnawing on their bones?

Well, having seen what they can do in a battle-report, I think our best way if dealing with then are lots of flames throwers and Warp lightning cannons.

they are rather weak against anything that can deal a significant amount of mortal wounds.

but will hold quit good against plague monks and any other units we throw at them with no rend.

 

 

[michu]

One question @Riff_Raff_Rascal. Where do you see that +3" move for Doomwheel? I have that book and Doomwheel is only 4d6.

Edited November 12, 2019 by michu

[Skreech Verminking]

11 minutes ago, michu said:

One question @Riff_Raff_Rascal. Where do you see that +3" move for Doomwheel? I have that book and Doomwheel is only 4d6.

Well I am not @Riff_Raff_Rascal but I’m guessing that he is counting the battalion ability for the doomwheel.

[michu]

Oh, I forgot about Skryre battallions. That says something about them....

[Ineffectual Clawlord]

@Aelford Stormvermin profit heavily from the size bonuses, so you want to have a safety net since they will get focused heavily. 40 is the way to go.

I love your enthusiasm for Ratlings, but particularly for your second list I'd advise to drop one in addition to the Vermin to get 40 extra Clanrats in. Overseer of Destruction will provide a solid damage increase in both lists. If you want your AW to be tankier, dropping Vigordust for Ignax's Scales is an option.

Burning Head is a matter of taste, I rate the other low cost endless spells higher, Suffocating Gravetide in particular.

@gronnelg

Hard to say what kind of build will be successful in the future. The most common answer seems playing around a 40-man Mortek Guard block in conjunction with lots of support characters as well as a Crawler. For Fiends builds not much adaption will be necessary. The guard re-roll only works in melee, Fiends (or Acolytes) will wipe them without much thought.

Jezzail heavy builds have to be afraid of the Crawler because of their base bravery of 4. Slaying half of your unit is ... unpleasant. You can play around this with Gnawhole positioning as well as the fact that they will outdrop you. Depending on where they set up you can just choose the other side, or try to bait the cauldron with Plague Monks (one of the few matchups where they are lackluster). The problem with the Crawler is that trying to whittle it down will make the special shots fare more likely to happen. 9 Jezzails (or 6 SF) can't do it reliably, whereas 12 can.

Another option is to use either Gutter Runners (or better: Pistoleers), a Deceiver or a Doom Wheel to pressure it.

Other than the Crawler and Petrifex-Guards it's just another death faction. Look at their spell table, kill heroes.

[gronnelg]

@Ineffectual ClawlordReroll only works in melee. Omg! I missed that. That is in fact huge! Shooting it is

[Cosmicsheep]

I’ve been reading the new Ogor Mawtribes book (playing a BCR player this week) and was pleased to see new rules meaning that Ogors count as 2 for objectives and behemoths count as 10. I was wondering whether such a rule would work for Moulder and actually make them plausible as a pure Moulder army. I love Moulder but their lack of numbers makes holding objectives difficult.

I realise it’s not likely to happen any time soon, but I was curious what other people think.

[Gwendar]

@Cosmicsheep I don't think that's really the overall problem with them; Giant Rats (or Clanrats if you bring them anyway, but that would defeat the purpose of it being a "pure" army) do that well enough. I think a lack of newer models and over subpar rules\units compared to, say, Skryre\Verminus\Pestilens stuff just makes them the worse choice up there with Eshin.

I mean sure, if you're running nothing but Rat Ogres and HPA's then I could see that being beneficial, but the reason Mawtribes get it in my mind is simply due to the fact they don't have access to a unit of 10-40 bodies within their own allegiance like we (and many others) do aside from Gnoblars. If I recall, there was a question on the survey about making certain units count as more models... so we could see more of it in the future. I think they would have a lot of work to do as you would need to re-evaluate the killing\staying power of said units or else they would dominate and kill off cheap hordes like Clanrats as they tend to be much more powerful by comparison.

Edited November 14, 2019 by Gwendar

[gronnelg]

As Skaven we usually get outdropped. For me that has typically meant I'm made to go first. How do you guys work around going first, and the possibility of your opponent getting the double from 1st to 2nd round?

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

@gronnelg This has also troubled me as well. There are two simple things that I've forgotten to value when knowing you'll go first: power projection during deployment and capturing objectives first. As skaven, the easiest source of power projection is our shooting, specifically our MW shooting. Try dropping your WLC or Jezzails down first thing. Think about your first turn. Generally your opponent will deploy outside your range anyway and so first turn shooting isn't a thing. This can include movement shenanigans like the Gnawhole.  So instead, control where they'll want to hide the juicy hero/monster targets up front. You won't get to shoot but for turn one, I offer that that unit's role is not to kill heroes but rather to force unfavorable positions for for your opponent. 

As for the latter point, Clanrats are your friend. Sending them hurdling towards objectives isn't a terrible thing. Going first isn't all bad when you can sit a block of 40 (cowardly, mind you) wounds on an objective. If they double-turn you with chaff to take it from you, you might be outnumbered but still alive and well. And if they send something more elite, you're daring your opponent that they can't do 30+ wounds to take it. There are other factors yes, but getting the points early do make a difference. 

Using both concepts in tandem is essentially what I do to scare the elites to the other side of the board so I can take an objective with the relatively weak clanrats.

Or throw this out the window and just have an un-killable Vermilord Warpseer in front of your army and take the double turn hit like a champ. 

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

On 11/13/2019 at 7:45 PM, Gwendar said:

just makes them the worse choice up there with Eshin.

 

Now hold on  sparky. I've held out for a long time from saying so, but Eshin is hot garbage. Moulder has got a lot of fun stuff. Running a full Moulder list is not hard to do, has your basic troop needs and some fun Warscrolls. The greatest gift they gave Moulder was a kick-ass Hell-bomb  and a battalion that can put you at a one drop. @Cosmicsheep play your little heart out Moulder fan. They've got the goods to be fun even if they're missing magic, heroes, traits, artifacts, rules, ....

[Gwendar]

3 hours ago, Riff_Raff_Rascal said:

Now hold on  sparky. I've held out for a long time from saying so, but Eshin is hot garbage. Moulder has got a lot of fun stuff. Running a full Moulder list is not hard to do, has your basic troop needs and some fun Warscrolls. The greatest gift they gave Moulder was a kick-ass Hell-bomb  and a battalion that can put you at a one drop. @Cosmicsheep play your little heart out Moulder fan. They've got the goods to be fun even if they're missing magic, heroes, traits, artifacts, rules, ....

I would say you can make Eshin work well enough too however. I don't disagree that Moulder doesn't have things going for it but it's obviously on that lower echelon of choices and I think it's nearly tied with Moulder, but yeah... Moulder is slightly ahead. I wasn't telling anyone not to play Moulder, just answering his lack of numbers question... then I went off on my own little tangent about Eshin\Moulder being the worst options, etc etc.. doesn't mean they aren't fun to play. I really only play from a competitive standpoint which is why I can't generally give good "fun" recommendations 😉

Give people newer sculpts and I promise you would see both of those trash-heap sub-factions go up in playtime. I converted 40 Gutter Runners and 100 Nightrunners around a year and a half ago and they've only seen one game before the tome... since then they've sat unpainted in my hobby closet which really is a travesty. 

[gronnelg]

@GwendarCan we have pics of your conversions? I want to make some myself at some point. Monkey skaven are not to my taste

[Cosmicsheep]

Thanks @Riff_Raff_Rascal I tend to add Thanquol to my “pure” Moulder army for a bit of spellcasting. He IS riding a giant rat ogre after all. And with a unit of stormfiends (albeit unbuffed) for extra fire-power a 3-drop army is quite doable 😉

[Gwendar]

@gronnelg Sure, going to be a late night at work but I'll dig them out tonight or tomorrow and post some up. I did some test schemes on a couple before I settled with my desaturation scheme so some are 'painted'. To get an idea, I really just used the clothed Clanrats rather than the armored ones, cut\ filed downthe left hand where the shield goes and attached witch aelf hands to give them the whole 'dual-wielded daggers' look. The Gutter Runners are really just 3 different poses of the BB team with some Deathrunners RIP thrown in.

[Ineffectual Clawlord]

On 11/15/2019 at 9:03 AM, gronnelg said:

As Skaven we usually get outdropped. For me that has typically meant I'm made to go first. How do you guys work around going first, and the possibility of your opponent getting the double from 1st to 2nd round?

When writing mixed lists you will (almost) always get outdropped. Embrace it! Gutter Runners, Ratlings etc. are all good options to get them higher. I even played with the idea of splitting my Jezzails in lists where I don't use MMMWP. Dropping a backline screen, a unit in reserve and two Ratlings means I gave nothing of worth away of how I will position my essential units whereas most opponents with battalions have given away their battle plan.

If you have something to do on your first turn then this is a huge advantage since you can adjust whatever plan you have for the scenario.

Some ideas:

• Buffs: we only have Death Frenzy (maybe Shield on a Balewind-Warlock if you can afford to bait with it). If your plan doesn't rely on your Monks you can try to bait them with it and get short range shooters in range.
• Gnawholes: teleporting Jezzails from one corner to the other (setups are not moves, they retain their re-rolls) is a classic. Same with a Doomwheel teleported on the side so it can potentially pressure a weak home point on turn 2. Skitterleap-Vortex-Gnawhole if of course an option but this works with a whole bunch of spells, Geminids in particular can partially cripple alpha strike lists.
• Walls: modifying the field with Palisade, Gravetide, Vermintide to screen your screen. To clarify for newer players: endless spells are friendly models so you cannot move across their base (unless flying) and therefore "block" parts of the board.
• If you fear a double turn T1-T2 then setting up Geminids in the middle of the board so it can hit most of their line while not being in range of your units in case they give it to you.
• Modify your screens etc. in case you made a mistake during deployment.

Hard to give general advice without lists, especially since your options are so scenario dependent. A good start is to practice deploying your list. When already in game try to understand your opponents list and ask them what units do so you can adjust and prepare.

Just remember that taking the first double is a gambit on their part. If they do not cripple you with it, from now on you can dictate the next double.

Finally, get more Clanrats and practice screening/movement. They work differently than most units in this game as they feel a bit like a logic puzzle. How can i minimize the models that are in combat while getting the most enemy units in combat? Always think about where you can retreat to. Charge phase is just another movement phase. Measure where the closes enemy unit is so you can pile in away from the unit you are in combat with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHfFlVDClJk&t=2527s

Dawn Brewer showcases most of these things in this battle report. Maybe this is not entirely pertinent to the question but it feels noteworthy that you should use your blockers as blockers while also improving your map position.

 

[FrecotheDog]

Hey all,

 

I am building up a Skaven force and was wondering if Thanqoul was seen as a good addition/competitive?

 

So far I have an Arch-Warlock, Screaming Bell, the requisite 60-100 clan rats, 2 WLCs, 2 doomwheels, 6 stormfiends and am considering of converting 20-30 acolytes rather then using 40 plague monks as I am a bit of a sucker for steampunk rats. Anything else that stands out that I should add on top of that? Thanks all!

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

@FrecotheDog Thanquol is fun as heck. He is the most reliable caster for Warp Lightning Vortex and his Warp-fire projectors are the bee's knees. Competitive? Not sure. He has a role to play in certain magic heavy lists, but frankly most competitive list builders see him as too much of a cost and cuts into the number of bodies you can field. That said, I think the true challenge to field him comes down to accepting that his role is not as all-encompassing as we might hope for from a 400 point model. But if you think he can fit that role in your list well, field the heck out of 'em. 

Personally, I've never had a disappointing run of the two knuckle-heads. Have fun.

[Riff_Raff_Rascal]

Question to the crowd: How best to use Doom-Flayers?

I had the pleasure of recasting a whole squad using my Skaven genius and now have been using them alongside Doomwheel heavy lists. Combined with their weak save, not being a unit or lacking an activation shenanigans, its impossible to have more than one in combat and do something. They do hit above their weight I've found, but that's not saying much considering how "dinky" they are. 

I don't want to be the one to say they're useless, but I wanted to know your thoughts on the unit.