AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion

[Darkhan]

Ok guys, I have really been chewing hard on the theory crafting. But I'm torn in this one.

I'm doing 9 stormfiends in a list. Here is the ultimate dilemma. I want to get them into combat/shooting range asap. Taking a unit of warpgrinder lets me put the 9 fiends with him, and just pop them up whenever. The idea is to skitterleap the Arch-Warlock ahead where they are going to pop up to give them the spark buff and some WLV crazyness.

The downside with this is that I won’t get to more more warpower the fiends, or vigordust them until T2. If the AW lives.

Second idea is to replace the warpgrinder with a soulscream bridge, this way they will be able to do a 18" ish move. And the potential of getting all the buffs. 

The players in my community is too well aware of the gnawholes. So they get super blocked.

I'm torn here. 

Any of you guys tested these tactics? Or similar ones?

[Skreech Verminking]

52 minutes ago, Darkhan said:

Ok guys, I have really been chewing hard on the theory crafting. But I'm torn in this one.

I'm doing 9 stormfiends in a list. Here is the ultimate dilemma. I want to get them into combat/shooting range asap. Taking a unit of warpgrinder lets me put the 9 fiends with him, and just pop them up whenever. The idea is to skitterleap the Arch-Warlock ahead where they are going to pop up to give them the spark buff and some WLV crazyness.

The downside with this is that I won’t get to more more warpower the fiends, or vigordust them until T2. If the AW lives.

Second idea is to replace the warpgrinder with a soulscream bridge, this way they will be able to do a 18" ish move. And the potential of getting all the buffs. 

The players in my community is too well aware of the gnawholes. So they get super blocked.

I'm torn here. 

Any of you guys tested these tactics? Or similar ones?

Have you ever considered taking the deranged inventor trait for your warlock.

its not as strong as mmmwp, but can be used in the shooting phase.

[Gwendar]

4 hours ago, Darkhan said:

I'm doing 9 stormfiends in a list. Here is the ultimate dilemma. I want to get them into combat/shooting range asap.

As you suggested, I think the Bridge is the perfect solution.. and it allows you to escape back if it's still around next turn. It had a lot of use (and honestly it's what let this list function properly) at LGT this past weekend. Here's some coverage on a game with it and 9 Fiends. I really do think it's the best solution as those buffs are critical to the output. Using a Grinder really has no benefit for Fiends in my opinion.
 

 

[Darkhan]

7 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Have you ever considered taking the deranged inventor trait for your warlock.

its not as strong as mmmwp, but can be used in the shooting phase.

I totally forgot about that..I mixed it with vigordust injector, too much crafting! Yes, so it atleast gives me reroll hits + spark T1.

3 hours ago, Gwendar said:

As you suggested, I think the Bridge is the perfect solution.. and it allows you to escape back if it's still around next turn. It had a lot of use (and honestly it's what let this list function properly) at LGT this past weekend. Here's some coverage on a game with it and 9 Fiends. I really do think it's the best solution as those buffs are critical to the output. Using a Grinder really has no benefit for Fiends in my opinion.
 

 

Yeah, I saw that game! Will try both things, pretty nice with the multiple units moving over it! Will probably only be able to fit the fiends and a AW;p

It would be amazing if the ratlings can hit targets T1.

Edited September 17, 2019 by Darkhan

[Gwendar]

17 minutes ago, Darkhan said:

Yeah, I saw that game! Will try both things, pretty nice with the multiple units moving over it! Will probably only be able to fit the fiends and a AW;p

It would be amazing if the ratlings can hit targets T1.

In regards to Deranged Inventor, yeah that's generally always top take if you're rolling mostly Skryre as a solid backup to MMMWP not going off; Tzeentch, Nagash, etc. can bank on ensuring that.

I briefly thought of the Grinder team, but really not worth it all things considered... at least not for Fiends. The bridge almost acts like another Gnawhole and it's utility for 80 points is astounding, especially in this specific case. Ratlings hitting T1 would be great, but as you're one drop with the above list, you can decide that a lot of the time (most competitive lists are running 1-5 drops on average) and if you believe them inching forward and giving them T1 is best then you will likely have them in range with the bridge.

[Darkhan]

9 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

In regards to Deranged Inventor, yeah that's generally always top take if you're rolling mostly Skryre as a solid backup to MMMWP not going off; Tzeentch, Nagash, etc. can bank on ensuring that.

I briefly thought of the Grinder team, but really not worth it all things considered... at least not for Fiends. The bridge almost acts like another Gnawhole and it's utility for 80 points is astounding, especially in this specific case. Ratlings hitting T1 would be great, but as you're one drop with the above list, you can decide that a lot of the time (most competitive lists are running 1-5 drops on average) and if you believe them inching forward and giving them T1 is best then you will likely have them in range with the bridge.

I don't have a 1 drop list tho:/ 7 drop, guess it will serve the purpose of getting the enemy closer if they take T1.

[Gwendar]

14 minutes ago, Darkhan said:

I don't have a 1 drop list tho:/ 7 drop, guess it will serve the purpose of getting the enemy closer if they take T1.

Well, it isn't a huge deal. My personal preference is towards a 60 Clanrat list, with or without WLV (though it's hard to say no to that) similar to Jack's from LGT. Two different styles of using them however, so build what you like around that and what works for your local meta. Many players always opt to go 2nd (especially if a CC focused army) for the double, but many fail to see where that isn't always beneficial. 

My magic list for example benefits me whether I go 1st or 2nd and with it being ~9 drops, makes it difficult for people I play against to give me T1 so I can hit them with a bunch of spells and a SoJ Corruptor.... or give me 2nd and let me hit them with a bunch of spells and a SoJ Corruptor.

[Darkhan]

8 hours ago, Gwendar said:

Well, it isn't a huge deal. My personal preference is towards a 60 Clanrat list, with or without WLV (though it's hard to say no to that) similar to Jack's from LGT. Two different styles of using them however, so build what you like around that and what works for your local meta. Many players always opt to go 2nd (especially if a CC focused army) for the double, but many fail to see where that isn't always beneficial. 

My magic list for example benefits me whether I go 1st or 2nd and with it being ~9 drops, makes it difficult for people I play against to give me T1 so I can hit them with a bunch of spells and a SoJ Corruptor.... or give me 2nd and let me hit them with a bunch of spells and a SoJ Corruptor.

Yes, it's pretty similar to Jacks list. I wanted 2 bells first, and do a 40-20-20 clanrats, but then I saw the monks and was like wtf, why did I not think of that:D

Swapped out a bell for the monks, and doing the AW instead of two engineers. And included the bridge.

[Gwendar]

3 hours ago, Darkhan said:

why did I not think of that:D

Swapped out a bell for the monks, and doing the AW instead of two engineers. And included the bridge.

I think a lot of people just look at them as a hammer nothing more. What many tend to forget is once you steal an objective with a hammer unit, it's yours until they cap it back in almost every battleplan. Cover the hole with Clanrats if you want, but generally you don't need to worry about it unless they have something flanking wide or teleports\summons (which is why I'm forced to play extra cagey against Seraphon, which is obnoxious). The utility of the Bell can be great but I generally think 2 of them is one too many for what it does.

Just having the AW is nice and his profile is what saves him.. but he doesn't have MW protection. You really have to keep an eye on him as you have no redundancy without a second source of MMMWP, and honestly with those 9 Fiend lists, that's really all you care about; once that's gone their output goes down drastically and even more so since your AW would likely have Vigordust and Deranged Inventor on it as well. If you could somehow squeeze in a regular Engineer\Bombardier on top of that for redundancy (or go back to using 2 or 3 Engineers) then you would be better off against something sniping out your AW. Bell with Death Frenzy and all Engineers with MMMWP is what you need to succeed.

Edited September 18, 2019 by Gwendar

[Darkhan]

43 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

I think a lot of people just look at them as a hammer nothing more. What many tend to forget is once you steal an objective with a hammer unit, it's yours until they cap it back in almost every battleplan. Cover the hole with Clanrats if you want, but generally you don't need to worry about it unless they have something flanking wide or teleports\summons (which is why I'm forced to play extra cagey against Seraphon, which is obnoxious). The utility of the Bell can be great but I generally think 2 of them is one too many for what it does.

Just having the AW is nice and his profile is what saves him.. but he doesn't have MW protection. You really have to keep an eye on him as you have no redundancy without a second source of MMMWP, and honestly with those 9 Fiend lists, that's really all you care about; once that's gone their output goes down drastically and even more so since your AW would likely have Vigordust and Deranged Inventor on it as well. If you could somehow squeeze in a regular Engineer\Bombardier on top of that for redundancy (or go back to using 2 or 3 Engineers) then you would be better off against something sniping out your AW. Bell with Death Frenzy and all Engineers with MMMWP is what you need to succeed.

Thx for the tip good sir!

Hmmm...I would have to drop either the bridge or WLV to fit another engineer. Or drop 10 monks.

Edited September 18, 2019 by Darkhan

[SlyRebirth]

I've been looking for an answer to this for a while, so I thought I'd just ask here. I gather it's perfectly fine to have multiple Screaming Bells (learned from this thread) but I wondered if the buffs/nerfs stack when ringing the bells? I can see that the damage or summon results would be fine, but would you -2 to hit for enemies within range of both Bells if they so rolled?

Edited September 18, 2019 by SlyRebirth

[Skreech Verminking]

2 minutes ago, SlyRebirth said:

I've been looking for an answer to this for a while, so I thought I'd just ask here. I gather it's perfectly fine to have multiple Screaming Bells (learned from this thread) but I wondered if the buffs/nerfs stack when ringing the bells? I can see that the damage or summon spells would be fine, but would you -2 to hit for enemies within range of both Bells if they so rolled?

It’s funny but those debuffs/buffs actually stack, if you get them off.

[SlyRebirth]

3 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

It’s funny but those debuffs/buffs actually stack, if you get them off.

Great... I'll take five! 😂

Thanks for the quick answer.

[Skreech Verminking]

16 minutes ago, SlyRebirth said:

Great... I'll take five! 😂

Thanks for the quick answer.

You still need to get them off, and don’t forget your 5Verminlords to summon😂😂

[SlyRebirth]

26 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

You still need to get them off, and don’t forget your 5Verminlords to summon😂😂

I am very confident that the Great Horned One will support this endeavour, and there is no precedent whatsoever for small details such as dice rolls from derailing Skaven plans at any time in history. Not at all...

(I don't have five bells, but I think two would be fun to try :))

[MisterJoshua]

15 hours ago, Gwendar said:

In regards to Deranged Inventor, yeah that's generally always top take if you're rolling mostly Skryre as a solid backup to MMMWP not going off; Tzeentch, Nagash, etc. can bank on ensuring that.

I briefly thought of the Grinder team, but really not worth it all things considered... at least not for Fiends. The bridge almost acts like another Gnawhole and it's utility for 80 points is astounding, especially in this specific case. Ratlings hitting T1 would be great, but as you're one drop with the above list, you can decide that a lot of the time (most competitive lists are running 1-5 drops on average) and if you believe them inching forward and giving them T1 is best then you will likely have them in range with the bridge.

I’m still considering a grinder team. I don’t think it’s better than the bridge, but I think you’re selling it a little short. It does have a few advantages:

- Guaranteed to work. The bridge can be dispelled. A grinder team always turns up.

- Not limited by range. A sneaky opponent (like in the linked video) can set up out of range of the bridge.

- Extra model. The grinder can screen charges for the fiends once he pops out.

- Don’t have to set up. This has downsides for turn 1 buffs, but means they always hit the field at full strength whether you go first or second.

- Easier to use. Not an in-game benefit, but seeing Savva try to squash 9 fiends within 6” of a bridge made me think the grinder is a solid choice

 

The bridge of course has its own advantages. I think it might be the stronger choice, but not my much. I’ll try the grinder as it’s more ‘skaveny’

[Gwendar]

1 hour ago, MisterJoshua said:

I’m still considering a grinder team. I don’t think it’s better than the bridge, but I think you’re selling it a little short. It does have a few advantages:

- Guaranteed to work. The bridge can be dispelled. A grinder team always turns up.

- Not limited by range. A sneaky opponent (like in the linked video) can set up out of range of the bridge.

- Extra model. The grinder can screen charges for the fiends once he pops out.

- Don’t have to set up. This has downsides for turn 1 buffs, but means they always hit the field at full strength whether you go first or second.

- Easier to use. Not an in-game benefit, but seeing Savva try to squash 9 fiends within 6” of a bridge made me think the grinder is a solid choice

 

The bridge of course has its own advantages. I think it might be the stronger choice, but not my much. I’ll try the grinder as it’s more ‘skaveny’

I don't sell the unit itself short, I sell it short in this capacity due to MMMWP not being able to go off and that's pretty huge. Sure, you can get a spark and Deranged out if you Skitterleap\Gnawhole an Engineer\AW which will help, but you will likely want to bank on a double as you'll now be vulnerable depending on how far out you set them up. I just think it's a different strategy overall, I didn't mean to say it was inferior; just a different playstyle opposed to playing more reserved\less risk with the Bridge (aside from failing to cast it).

3 hours ago, Darkhan said:

Thx for the tip good sir!

Hmmm...I would have to drop either the bridge or WLV to fit another engineer. Or drop 10 monks.

I wouldn't drop the Monks. Honestly, just run it with the AW and see how it works out for you over 3-5 games with some different armies\opponents. It's totally capable of working, you just have to be mindful of threat ranges so he doesn't get sniped out. I like redundancy because competitive people will know the power that MMMWP can grant and will absolutely target it if they have the means.

Edited September 18, 2019 by Gwendar

[Skreech Verminking]

3 hours ago, SlyRebirth said:

I am very confident that the Great Horned One will support this endeavour, and there is no precedent whatsoever for small details such as dice rolls from derailing Skaven plans at any time in history. Not at all...

(I don't have five bells, but I think two would be fun to try :))

Ps: I forgot to mention that 5Bells will probably only work in 2500 or more point games, since you’re limited to 4behemoths in a 2000point game 

[Darkhan]

@Gwendar I just did a tournament, had the warlock bombardier for general with overseer of destruction together with 4 rattling gunners. No one targeted him😂

I was super surprised. He died one time if I remember correctly, but by blowing himself up "late" game.

[Gwendar]

@SlyRebirth @Skreech Verminking Funnily enough, a 4-Bell list took 1st at a 44 Person event in Poland recently so that would've been fun to see: https://tabletop.to/dzban-vol-2/list/dante2

@Darkhan Like I said, depends on who you're playing; both army and player. I'm the only Skaven player around here and people know what those buffs can do and so they tend to target them. Keep doing that and people will catch on...

...eventually 😉

[Obeisance]

I looooved seeing how many Stormfiends were doing well in London.

I've been desperately wanting them to be good. I have a gaming store voucher.. might be time to get some more. =D

[Obeisance]

You have three double casters. One has Master of Magic. (Warpseer, Corruptor, Bell)

Is Vortex worth 100pts?

At the moment I'm taking..

Geminids, Mirror, Swords and Pendulum.

I want to take Vortex, Vermintide, Mirror, Geminids, Pendulum.. no points.

Vortex. Win lose or Draw?

[Gwendar]

@Obeisance WLV is absolutely still worth 100, but it now takes a bit more of an investment unless you want to use it for area denial or have it do damage later on with it's shortened range; meaning if you want it in there T1 you'll need someone to skitterleap.

That said, WLV is definitely not the auto-take it was before the range nerf... a lot of people drop it in favor of more Monks, Fiends, etc

Edited September 21, 2019 by Gwendar

[Gwendar]

Put up another batrep, this time vs. Slaanesh... and it's a quick one. I used Jack's list from LGT and, well, I'm a fan. Not a fan of rolling Monk attacks, but then again no-ones a fan of that I think.
 

 

[Shirtripper]

Went 2-1 for 5th place out of 10 teams and best sportsmanship at the Doubles tournament today! I ran Skaven with a Warpseer and my teammate ran FEC and Terrorgheists.  The tournament fules had us share CPs on our team, so the plan was for me to feed Command Points to his guys. It went very well!

Me:

Verminlord Warpseer (Suspicious Stone, Master of Magic)

Warlock Engineer

20x Clanrats

20x Clanrats

3 Stormfiends (Shock Gauntlets, Ratling Cannons, Wind Launchers)

Warp Lightning Vortex

 

FEC Gristlegore:

Varghulf Courtier (General)

Abhorrant Archregent

Terrorgheist

Terrorgheist

 

Round 1 was Battle for the Pass against Sylvaneth and Khorne running all daemons. Warpseer tanked almost 50 wounds before retreating, when my Stormfiends shot their Bloodthirster off the table. Terrorgheists got to Feeding Frenzy 4 times this game. 1-0

Round 2 was Scorched Earth vs Maggotkin + BoC. This was an absolute meat grinder so I don't remember much, but they got a double turn which stole momentum, and rolled really well on their charges. We lost, but at one point we had 6 command points in one turn and the Terrorgheists killed 70+ models all at once. 1-1

Round 3 was Duality of Death vs Stormcast (Anvils) + Sylvaneth. Stormcast player dropped 9 Vanguard Raptors to shoot the Warpseer off, but lemme tell you, he took 74 wounds to die after all his saves! WLV came in clutch here, killing his banner guy and 4 vanguard Raptors.  He stayed long enough on the board that a double turn going into round 3 sealed the game for us. The Varghulf Courtier dueled a Treelord Ancient in a Sylvaneth Wildwood for two turns and almost killed it. 2-1

Great Tournament, and I'm happy with the result. 10/10 would do again.

Edited September 22, 2019 by Shirtripper