Examining The Stormcast in Light of New and Pending Releases

[Roark]

On 2/7/2019 at 8:09 PM, ledha said:

Nerfing evocators and sequitors won't make the liberators, paladins or prosecutors more viable. They will be as mediocre as before. They are NOT a viable choice in tournament (if you want to be in the first half of the classment).

Sorry for the page 1 necromancy, but I think people regularly make a lot of overly-strong statements in SCE threads that just don't bear out in reality. For example, the guy who came 33rd out of 200 (or whatever) at CanCon used 15 Libs and 2 units of Paladins in his list. He was one of the top 5 SCE Players at CanCon.

He's not a national Master or anything either...

[Future]

6 hours ago, Roark said:

Sorry for the page 1 necromancy, but I think people regularly make a lot of overly-strong statements in SCE threads that just don't bear out in reality. For example, the guy who came 33rd out of 200 (or whatever) at CanCon used 15 Libs and 2 units of Paladins in his list. He was one of the top 5 SCE Players at CanCon.

He's not a national Master or anything either...

I think about this a lot actually. Going into day 3 of LVO there are 2 SCE in the top 8. One army has 2 units of 5 Liberators in the battle line. The other player has stardrake, 2 units of 5 judicators and one unit of 5 liberators.

[Nos]

9 hours ago, Roark said:

Sorry for the page 1 necromancy, but I think people regularly make a lot of overly-strong statements in SCE threads that just don't bear out in reality. For example, the guy who came 33rd out of 200 (or whatever) at CanCon used 15 Libs and 2 units of Paladins in his list. He was one of the top 5 SCE Players at CanCon.

He's not a national Master or anything either...

The main thing for me is that I don’t understand why people limit themselves to such a degree. We have by far the most varied and versatile army options, so much stuff to try out.

Pretty much the number one complaint of most other factions is that they don’t have enough units, yet there are SC players who seem intent on limiting themselves to about 4 every list without fail. They’ll also be quick to tell you that 33 out of 200 is garbage because it’s not winning is it, sigh.

With the exception of when I’m trying to hone a list I take something different with me to my club most weeks, usually at least one different hero, battleline option and non-battleline.

[Black Blade]

11 hours ago, Future said:

Honestly I feel like that’s every thread on this forum in recent time and not just this thread.

Do you think that has to do with the hobby becoming more and more popular? Is it inevitable as the appeal broadens more personality types will be drawn to the community?

[Gorthor21]

I think it has more to do with the competitive side of the hobby that has gotten more established over the years.  In a way it has become more and more like 40k in that regard.  Typically it seems to be on the internet that you find people speaking this way, most people I have met that play are just fine with any outcome of the game and are happy they are sharing it with someone.  Only once when I went to a tournament when I didn’t know anyone was I ridiculed and it was by the groups who played all the tournaments there and they said petty jibes within earshot like some stereotypical mean girls ina high school tv program.  People like to vent their own issues onto to silly things like how models are priced in the game or how their rules are unfair because they should have won that game against the freakin stormcasts.  

[chord]

1 hour ago, Gorthor21 said:

I think it has more to do with the competitive side of the hobby that has gotten more established over the years.  In a way it has become more and more like 40k in that regard.  Typically it seems to be on the internet that you find people speaking this way, most people I have met that play are just fine with any outcome of the game and are happy they are sharing it with someone.  Only once when I went to a tournament when I didn’t know anyone was I ridiculed and it was by the groups who played all the tournaments there and they said petty jibes within earshot like some stereotypical mean girls ina high school tv program.  People like to vent their own issues onto to silly things like how models are priced in the game or how their rules are unfair because they should have won that game against the freakin stormcasts.  

In our area, as the competitive types have moved into AoS the games and discussion have done the same way.  With AOS 2.0 its pretty much a lot of unfun players. 

[Future]

We have a really competitive meta.  4 of our players are top 30 at lvo and at least 1 is top 8. That said there is no toxicity in our local scene.  I think the attitude is definitely because the game is growing. I also agree it’s almost entirely online. 

[Nos]

Not wanting to be too philosophical but I think it's a wider issue with the art of discourse, or rather the loss/absence of it. Social media and the internet have given people the means to communicate with such ease that it's too easy to fire off something incoherent, unnecessary, adversarial etc. It used to require much more effort to say something meaning if it was just something snappy or snarky people were less likely to bother. 

Most people, and I probably include myself in this, don't care nearly enough about most things, AOS included, to actually take the time to formulate arguments, think pieces etc on the things they do if it wasn't something you could basically ****** out. But you can, so people just emote with words. There would have been a time when you would see something on a website or in a magazine or whatever and you'd think "WHAT?! Dont agree with that!" but then after 5 minutes you would have forgotten or be so put off by the effort required to actually engaged with it in the means available you just wouldn't bother. But the options to opine on the internet now do nothing to encourage rigour or forethought in response to something and everything to encourage instant, thoughtless noise. 

Edit: Can't believe a colloquial term for flatulence is against the filter. Very 1991.

[Mark Williams]

I've moved from 40k to AOS, and I think the main reason is that I don't find 40k games very fun any longer. It takes too long to make army lists and the games feel too one-sided to me. AoS CAN feel the same way, but a a casual hobby level, it's still pretty even and interesting things can happen. In 40k, I will just get stomped into the ground if I'm not prepared. I actaully feel it's the reverse of the situation we were in a few years ago, where 40k was the sort-of casual experience and Warhammer Fantasy was for the hardcore. It's flipped now. I really like the 40k lore, but I just have a difficult time enjoying the game as I used to. I think the major issue is the inclusing of flying and "mech" stuff in general (such as tatnicus walker/knight stuff). All these vehicles that I can't deal with unless I have a very specific counter prepared means I get into a lot of matchups that I have no hope of winning. AoS isn't quite at that level yet.

I've also noticed, as others have pointed out, that it seems many of the previously competitive 40k players have now  moved over to AoS as well.

 

[Pitloze]

Liberators at 100 points were such a good standard. I really dislike how they messed with that by bringing out Sequitors. You can't make Seqs too expensive or reduce Libs.

[Bradipo322]

32 minutes ago, Pitloze said:

Liberators at 100 points were such a good standard. I really dislike how they messed with that by bringing out Sequitors. You can't make Seqs too expensive or reduce Libs.

It's not like they haven't been powercreeped by anything else...

Sequitors are good, but they are just the final nail on Liberator's coffin.

[Nos]

6 minutes ago, Bradipo322 said:

It's not like they haven't been powercreeped by anything else...

Sequitors are good, but they are just the final nail on Liberator's coffin.

Only if you think Battleline should be anything more than reliable pawn type units which are precisely what Liberators are. The Stormcast have about 50 specialist options, they don’t need their battleline to act as another.

[AverageBoss]

4 hours ago, Bradipo322 said:

It's not like they haven't been powercreeped by anything else...

Sequitors are good, but they are just the final nail on Liberator's coffin.

Agreed. Liberators have long been considered an inefficient unit, outside things like Vanguard Wing which made them completely broken. Other than that they are just the cheap filler battleline unit if you can't afford the extra 60 points for Judicators.

I would prefer to give them a slight boost over dropping points though (I like them being an even 100), preferably a defensive one. Also, the Lord Arcanum needs to be made less of a no brainier choice by actually giving good reasons to take other heroes/generals.

[Pitloze]

I mean we can talk about nails and coffins for Liberators all we want. This year or next year there could be a new battleline unit that even outshines Sequitors. Impossible? Well imagine a horde battleline option for Stormcast that eliminates the needs for Skinks. "Legiors" at 80 points 4+ save for the same $$$ price as Vulkites. Don't act like no one would jump on a horde unit like that for SCE. That's just not fun hobby having to rebuy an entire new army every time a tome drops. And we have near yearly tome drops. I mean we as SCE players are partly to blame. Vanguard was a alternative but not considered "good" so I'm going to assume it didn't sell as well as GW expected.

Bringing out Sequitors out as they are right now for 120 points was a very reckless design choice but I can understand it. Apparantly giving us alternatives won't make us buy new stuff so we got presented with "better" units.  It probably was a big sale boost for GW.. But it makes me (and I'm probably not alone in this) wary of investing into my Stormcast army even though I like the concept of the army a lot. I bought 3 boxes of Beastclaw Raiders even though they aren't great because I'm pretty confident they won't release something like "Ironhorns" when the new BCR tome drops so the stuff  I have right now will still be relevant (maybe not good) by the time they get an update.

[Yoshiya]

I feel like Stormcast discussions like these always break down due to the fact that Stormcast has one of the largest gaps in performance between tournament play and casual play. That and when there is armies out there that are weaker and have no choice in units it just feels like a spoilt child crying for more (not saying I think this but others clearly do).

Liberators are indeed on the weaker side for tournament play (though far from the hyperbolic 'useless' people like to throw around) but at casual play they are very solid. A Stardrake is a wall that can be removed with the right tournament lists but in casual play is an unmovable object that is unfun to play against.

Given this, the question of how to fix the poor internal balance of the army becomes contentious. Do you raise the weaker units up to tournament viability or do you lower the units that make casual play unfun?

[PJetski]

Very few Stormcast units are overperforming, but those units are basically strictly better than their alternatives so people are being funneled into using the same units over and over which creates the perception that they are overpowered. I think the Ballista and Evocators are too cheap, while almost every Strike and Extremis unit is too expensive for what they do.

Ideally they could print an errata for some units that are lacking purpose (Castigators, Exorcist, arguably Liberators, and more) but I think simple changes to pitched battle profiles in GHB2019 could result in massive improvements. Here's the changes I would make:

 

Spoiler

 

Nerfs:

Celestar Ballista - 100 > 120
Gavriel Sureheart - 100 > 140
Evocators - 200 > 220
Sequitors - Max regiment discount removed

Buffs:

Aventis Firestrike - 360 > 320
Celestant-Prime - 340 > 300
Knight-Questor - 100 > 80
Lord-Arcanum - 180 > 160
Lord-Arcanum on Tauralon - 340 > 300
Lord-Exorcist - 140 > 100
Lord-Ordinator - 140 > 100
Castigators - 80 > 60, Max 18 > 12, Max discount removed
Lord-Celestant on Stardrake - 560 > 500
Drakesworn Templar - 460 > 400
Lord-Celestant on Dracoth - 220 > 200
Concussors - 260 > 120, Min 2 > 1
Desolators - 220 > 110, Min 2 > 1
Fulminators - 240 > 120, Min 2 > 1
Tempestors - 220 > 100, Min 2 > 1
Liberators - 100 > 90, Max 30 > 20, Max discount removed
Decimators - 200 > 180
Protectors - 200 > 180
Retributors - 220 > 180
Prosecutors - 100 > 80
Dais Arcanum - 40 > 20

 

Finally, I think one of the biggest problems is that Stormcast battalions are mostly terrible. Unusable battalions combined with Stormhosts forcing artifact choices means there is very little decision making when it comes to artifacts and command traits, which further funnels people in the same direction when building lists. I think the biggest contributor to that is how many underperforming units are in the Stormcast battletome - shaking up the point costs like this could see the battalions become viable options.

[HammerOfSigmar]

Well, it seems the current trend for gw to put some ridiculous limits  on every new army. Just check the latest released skaven, their battaline is very restricted. Maybe it is GW's  way to prevent newly released army to become overpower(although I doubt whether it will work since the newly army have a more and more terrifying warscroll).

 

By the way,  for ballista to be really effective, you need to take at least 3 of them and an ordinator, that's 440 points...  Moreover, GW sells models so newly released model tend to have powerful rules, so I don't think you guys will think it is overpower after several months(more army released). 

For example, please check the skaven's new screaming bell with greyseer. It's a skaven version of  gods of engine.(Somewhat even more powerful version, for example, if it rolls 10-11, a 26" bubble substracting 1 hits from all enemy units), it can cast two spells, it is a hero but not a monster, so it can have LOS. By the skaven allegiance ability, it can have LOS in combat and it can also try to  retreat rather than fight. What's more, it has 5+ FNP.  Then guess what? It is just a 200 points model.