Can monsters pass through wildwoods if their bases are too big to fit between the trees?

[themortalgod]

This came up in a game I played today. One of the first times I've played against Slyvanath.  The argument was that, as per terrain rules, you cannot actually move the trees on the base and they are effective barriers. As a result, my opponent argued that anything with a base wider than the gap between two trees cannot pass through a wildwood so he promptly lined up 6 bases on wildwoods on turn 1 and confidently was sure all my monsters had to walk all the way around them. (Which took all game)

I didn't have any actual evidence to disprove him so I just played it that way, but it felt pretty overpowered. I had 4 behemoths and all 4 were effectively taken out of the game because 6 Wildwood in a row covers most of the board. Is this actually how they are meant to be played?

 

thanks

[Lucky Snake Eyes]

7 minutes ago, themortalgod said:

I agree, I don't have much hope for a re-release but I'd have been happy with a pts re-balance. 

don't hold your breath on that one, compendium armies are basically left to die.

[EMMachine]

12 hours ago, Silchas_Ruin said:

Casual play we always remove the trees. Asked the guy running a turnament I'm going to soon and its the same there. 

If the wood blocks line of sight pretending its actually 3 trees is just stupid 

This could be the point, why GW made the "Overgrown Wilderness" rule for the Citadel Wood and the Sylvaneth Wyldwood with the Generals Handbook 2018, so measuring 1" through the would blocks line of sight.

[Joakim]

1 hour ago, Solaris said:

Just move your monster on top of it, and insist on actually putting the model itself up there and not a marker. Feel free to add some extra force as you put it there 😃

Ally in an old metal stregadon should do it just fine

[Solaris]

Just move your monster on top of it, and insist on actually putting the model itself up there and not a marker. Feel free to add some extra force as you put it there 😃

[PlasticCraic]

Answers given so far are correct and accurate.  You can climb up and down, or fly straight onto or over.

To add to the conversation, in Australian tournament packs it is very common to see a ruling (supposedly for simplicity) that trees can be removed, and if they are, nothing can end a movement in the holes.  This is an incredibly stupid house rule in a lot of Australian packs that literally breaks the game.  Most packs just copy and paste it from others without thinking about the implications.

FAQs are very explicit that all scenery can be climbed.  A unit should be able to pay the movement to climb up it, or in the case of a flying unit, just land straight on top of it.  Creating giant black holes in the board, as well as being against the rules of the game, has a couple of extremely feel-bad applications:

1) It is completely unengaging to have units that are both immune to shooting (because the woods are now LOS-blocking) and that are melee-proof to anything on a big base.  Can't shoot them, can't fight them.  Well this is gonna be a good time. 

2) A Sylvaneth player can summon Wyldwoods in such a way as to block in a foot-slogging monster, because it can't scale up, across and down in a single movement.  So it is completely hemmed into a portion of the board with no way of ever getting out.

TLDR: Wyldwoods are a very poorly-implemented idea, and Australian tournament packs make them even worse.  Stupid trees.

[Nos]

Gotta love the idea that huge monsters are daintily picking their way through the Undergrowth 

[Silchas_Ruin]

Casual play we always remove the trees. Asked the guy running a turnament I'm going to soon and its the same there. 

If the wood blocks line of sight pretending its actually 3 trees is just stupid

[Ruhraffe]

On 2/4/2019 at 3:26 AM, themortalgod said:

he promptly lined up 6 bases on wildwoods on turn 1

And thats where you should start reading the rules. The warscroll of the wyldwood says, that it consists of 3 citadel woods, that have to be put up within 1" of each other. If you make a line out of three elements, the two elements on the side are not within 1" of each other and therefor this is an illegal set up. The woods have to be set up in a triangle shape, a three-pointed star or a |= like clump, or with less then two elements. Between the different wyldwoods there has to be more then a 1" gap, so with some space between the wood edge and the tree you shold have some room to wiggle through with at least medium sized behemoths.

So, for a line of 6 bases he has to summon at least 3 woods. The first one geta there from the start, so you know one point of the line before setup, so you can maybe dodge it a bit. The second is most likely a spell, so try to be ready to dispell "Verdant Blessing", normally on a branchwraith. The third probably comes from an Acorn of the Ages, and the wood has to begin within 5" of the hero wearing the artifact.

 

As Sylvaneth is a 1 drop army, you know where the line will be, and where you have to unbind before you set up your second unit. It should be possible to get yourself some space if you set up accordingly.

 

[svnvaldez]

1 hour ago, rosa said:

Isnt this the reason the single trees can be put away?

 I never play the Wildwoods that way.

It blocks sight, yes, but the overal base is normal movable Terrain.

Sounds really stupid

I have my trees glued into the holes. Its a bad model for interacting with the mechanics of the game. The FAQ quoted above is the correct one that you need to scale up and down the trees. However there is also an FAQ that states players may want to house rule it. Just talk it over before hand and be aware that the default is nonfly monsters might have a difficult time moving around them.

[Walrustaco]

I have encountered quite a few Sylvaneth players who like to bend the rules in their favour. Things like the argument you mention with the trees and not being able to scale them and also with the trees I once had someone tell me as a new player that even normal moving over a wyldwood would have a chance to kill you.

[rosa]

Isnt this the reason the single trees can be put away?

I never play the Wildwoods that way.

It blocks sight, yes, but the overal base is normal movable Terrain.

Sounds really stupid

[svnvaldez]

Also consider if you actually need to go up the whole tree to fit. I don’t believe there are any rules about the basing needing to be flush with the surface. Thus if you angle the base to be at a diagonal with the tree and the board you may fit and only use say 3in of movement.

Its a very awkward situation and an example of a cool idea of terrain for an army being poorly executed. 

[Joakim]

I’d find a other person to play. His interpretation was clearly over what would give you a meaningful and entertaining game.

 

id normally be all for rules as written and all but 4 monsters that cannot walk through trees? That’s just silly

 

try to find people that play the game in the spirit you enjoy.

 

or at least clarify pre-game next time

[themortalgod]

Just now, Lucky Snake Eyes said:

don't hold your breath on that one, compendium armies are basically left to die.

I'm not. I'm presuming at this point that either this year's GH or next years they will officially state compendium are narrative play only. 

[themortalgod]

9 minutes ago, Lucky Snake Eyes said:

allegiance abilities wouldn't hurt either but I think GW has really written them into a corner with end times and have no idea how to copyright there way into a tomb kings 2.0

I agree, I don't have much hope for a re-release but I'd have been happy with a pts re-balance. 

[Lucky Snake Eyes]

7 minutes ago, themortalgod said:

Well, his rules are strong, he is just over-costed like everything else in the TK army. I find against most players I can still hold my own with TKs but sometimes certain mechanics are a hard counter. Though I have won quite a few games from 10 skeleton horsemen getting flying + whip + cogs allowing them to jump on an objective in the backline and take quite a pounding to get off it.

I think the army would be just fine if they dropped pts costs by 10% or so across the board. 

allegiance abilities wouldn't hurt either but I think GW has really written them into a corner with end times and have no idea how to copyright there way into a tomb kings 2.0

[themortalgod]

Just now, Lucky Snake Eyes said:

I really wish settra was carried over properly, nowadays i use him as my corpse cart...

Well, his rules are strong, he is just over-costed like everything else in the TK army. I find against most players I can still hold my own with TKs but sometimes certain mechanics are a hard counter. Though I have won quite a few games from 10 skeleton horsemen getting flying + whip + cogs allowing them to jump on an objective in the backline and take quite a pounding to get off it.

I think the army would be just fine if they dropped pts costs by 10% or so across the board. 

[Lucky Snake Eyes]

7 minutes ago, themortalgod said:

Yeah, I was running my Tomb Kings which are pretty weak to begin with, taking my sphynxes right out of the game was GG. Big based Necro Knights aren't overly fond of the trees either. (I swear, whenever I really need them to fly I roll that "1" with Settra)

I really wish settra was carried over properly, nowadays i use him as my corpse cart...

[themortalgod]

20 minutes ago, Lucky Snake Eyes said:

As an LoN player I don't run into this issue since most of my big stuff flies, but I can see where BR or other armies with a heavy reliance on grounded units would really suffer depending on how this is handled.

Yeah, I was running my Tomb Kings which are pretty weak to begin with, taking my sphynxes right out of the game was GG. Big based Necro Knights aren't overly fond of the trees either. (I swear, whenever I really need them to fly I roll that "1" with Settra)

[Lucky Snake Eyes]

As an LoN player I don't run into this issue since most of my big stuff flies, but I can see where BR or other armies with a heavy reliance on grounded units would really suffer depending on how this is handled.

[Forrix]

You just discovered why I hate Sylvaneth so much...

[Realmhead]

Correct. By-the-by, if this monster is a hero, then they can be given the Thermalrider Cloak, an artifact from malign sorcery that grants +4" move and FLY

[themortalgod]

2 minutes ago, Realmhead said:

That's my understanding, yes.

From the Core Rules Designer's Commentary:

 Q: Are models allowed to climb a terrain feature such as a 
Fortress Wall?
A: For simplicity and ease of play, the rules allow any 
model to climb any terrain feature. If you wish, you can 
only allow models to move to places that they could 
reach ‘in real life’, but it will require a certain amount of 
common sense in order to make such a house rule work.

Q: If the height of the terrain feature exceeds a model’s 
movement, can it be climbed over multiple turns? Can a model 
run up a terrain feature?
A: Yes to both questions. A model may need to spend 
several turns climbing an especially high terrain feature 
(you will need to remember how far it has climbed each 
turn, and measure distances and visibility to or from 
that model as if it were in that location).

Right, so it would be fair to say a monster with a 5" movement would spend a long time getting through a single wildwood but could do it.  

[Realmhead]

That's my understanding, yes.

From the Core Rules Designer's Commentary:

 Q: Are models allowed to climb a terrain feature such as a Fortress Wall?
A: For simplicity and ease of play, the rules allow any model to climb any terrain feature. If you wish, you can only allow models to move to places that they could reach ‘in real life’, but it will require a certain amount of common sense in order to make such a house rule work.

Q: If the height of the terrain feature exceeds a model’s movement, can it be climbed over multiple turns? Can a model run up a terrain feature?
A: Yes to both questions. A modelmay need to spend several turns climbing an especially highterrain feature (you will need to remember how far it has climbed each turn, and measure distances and visibility to or from that model as if it were in that location).

[themortalgod]

2 minutes ago, Realmhead said:

I think that you can't move between them is correct. But you are allowed to climb up and over them. And you are allowed to end your move on top of them.

So a tree is say 5" tall so every tree I climb over costs 10" of movement? (5" up, 5" down)