Noone can defeat this player's SCE list

[Nos]

1 hour ago, ledha said:

Evocators with staff laugh at nighthaunts

5 of them against 80+? Sure  

[XReN]

7 minutes ago, Nos said:

5 of them against 80+? Sure  

Points-wise it's more like 15 against 80 and therefore they will kick in nighthaunts spectral teeth

[stato]

1 hour ago, ledha said:

Evocators with staff laugh at nighthaunts

What Evocators?  there are none in the lists being discussed.   <idiot 🤣

[XReN]

1 minute ago, stato said:

What Evocators?  there are none in the lists being discussed.

I'm pretty sure there are 5 in one and 10 in the other

[stato]

Just now, XReN said:

I'm pretty sure there are 5 in one and 10 in the other

<FACE PALM>  Just saw it as all sequitors </FACE PALM> 

[Nos]

34 minutes ago, XReN said:

Points-wise it's more like 15 against 80 and therefore they will kick in nighthaunts spectral teeth

No it isn’t because in this specific list which the guy has asked questions about and therefore the thing that I am explicitly responding to there are only five (5) of them.

If the guy had said there are 15 of them then I wouldn’t have suggested this list. However in this specific instance there *are* only 5 of them.

[Ken]

6 hours ago, schwabbele said:

Lol , I am a bad player please nerf.

sorry but bringing a 0 rend unit to a sequitor party is just stupid. Guess what 4 Morghast insta gibbed 9 of my 20 Seqs and I didn’t say nerf Morghast. Or how do du feel against skeletons which just get revived or the whole unit has an autoressurect for 1cp - also nerf?

Lol, Ardboyz with big choppas have rend -1.  Same rend as Brutes.  

Sequitors with a 5+ re-rollable save, a 6+ FNP save, and a 1/3 chance to return when destroyed, plus the option to act offensively when needed, all for 240 points for 10  is not properly costed.

And if you’re  such a great player you’d come out from behind your Stormcast crutch and win with an army that doesn’t have all the advantages 

 

[XReN]

14 minutes ago, Nos said:

No it isn’t because in this specific list which the guy has asked questions about and therefore the thing that I am explicitly responding to there are only five (5) of them.

If the guy had said there are 15 of them then I wouldn’t have suggested this list. However in this specific instance there *are* only 5 of them.

What matters is that 5 evocators cost far less than 80 of any ghosts, and I don't see what they can laugh at since they will still suffer, if not from bunch of evocators - than from sequitors, whille 2 ballistas will be able to kill their support pieces one by one with sheer volume of firepower. When you compare something, consider doing it fairly. 

(I might fool myself on that because I played different nighthaunt lists and kicked their asses with FEC, so I'm pretty confident that pure Nighthaunt are weak)

[XReN]

10 hours ago, Ken said:

I played them this weekend and attacked them with a unit of 20  Ardboyz throwing  out 6 attacks each after the Waaagh.  Took me 2.5 combat phases to wipe them out.

If thats accurate - burn your stupid dice
 

10 minutes ago, Ken said:

Lol, Ardboyz with big choppas have rend -1.  Same rend as Brutes.

Lol multiple damage attacks work better, that's why you can't compare those units, also brute boss have a rend of -2, instead of only -1 ALSO brutes can get 2" range weapons lowering their front against counter-attack, ALSO brutes have better to hit value and more base attacks.
And hey, at least you killed them, just for you to know: we run firestorm campaign right now and our StD player managed to kill only ONE seqitor with fully buffed block of 30 WoCs, because those sequitors have been properly buffed to 2+ save instead of laughable 6+ prevent and nothing else. 

 

22 minutes ago, Ken said:

And if you’re  such a great player you’d come out from behind your Stormcast crutch and win with an army that doesn’t have all the advantages 

WOW thats a lot of salt and misconceptions for one sentence 

 

 

[Nos]

1 hour ago, XReN said:

What matters is that 5 evocators cost far less than 80 of any ghosts, and I don't see what they can laugh at since they will still suffer, if not from bunch of evocators - than from sequitors, whille 2 ballistas will be able to kill their support pieces one by one with sheer volume of firepower. When you compare something, consider doing it fairly. 

(I might fool myself on that because I played different nighthaunt lists and kicked their asses with FEC, so I'm pretty confident that pure Nighthaunt are weak)

You’re not comparing anything fairly. You’re making generalised statements about factions and points cost. I’m quite aware how both factions work. It’s not a question of which is better, 15 Evocators or 80 Chainrasp. That’s not what’s being discussed. It’s about how you can use 1250 points to beat his 1250 points, which has no more than 5 Evocators. You don’t need to be able to kill 15 of them, that’s irrelevant.

Adress the list I made and tell me specifically how the one he listed beats it. Not just “Evocators kill loads of things, Sequitors kill loads of things, Ballistae kill loads of things”. Even if this has somehow escaped my attention despite playing 30+ games with these units, the fact that the poster has posted a list saying that it defeats all comers and kills loads of things would have given me that information.

Did you beat Nighthaunt while you were still misusing the artefact rules to apply to your mount, or had you stopped doing that by then?

[XReN]

23 minutes ago, Nos said:

You’re not comparing anything fairly. You’re making generalised statements about factions and points cost. I’m quite aware how both factions work. It’s not a question of which is better, 15 Evocators or 80 Chainrasp. That’s not what’s being discussed. It’s about how you can use 1250 points to beat his 1250 points, which has no more than 5 Evocators. You don’t need to be able to kill 15 of them, that’s irrelevant.

Adress the list I made and tell me specifically how the one he listed beats it. Not just “Evocators kill loads of things, Sequitors kill loads of things, Ballistae kill loads of things”. Even if this has somehow escaped my attention despite playing 30+ games with these units, the fact that the poster has posted a list saying that it defeats all comers and kills loads of things would have given me that information.

Okay, I think acted inapropriate here, but I only seen evocators vs world part of you contribution to the topic and it took me some time to understand that what you posted way earlier was a list, which, I'd say is pretty good.

Therefore I believe that it will take a lot of good rolls to kill all the ghosts before point lead is too big and unless it's a hero/wizard scoring mission SC will be swarmed and defeated. (And I mentioned earlier in this discussion that bringing overwhelming numbers helps a lot). 
Now what can SC player do in this situation: since your list lacks a punch, except some MWs he can focus balista fire on hosts whille LA challenging GoS to cast spells and if his positioning is right he might pull of minor win without leaving his objectives due to range advantage. 

[schwabbele]

1 hour ago, Ken said:

Lol, Ardboyz with big choppas have rend -1.  Same rend as Brutes.  

Sequitors with a 5+ re-rollable save, a 6+ FNP save, and a 1/3 chance to return when destroyed, plus the option to act offensively when needed, all for 240 points for 10  is not properly costed.

And if you’re  such a great player you’d come out from behind your Stormcast crutch and win with an army that doesn’t have all the advantages 

 

Didn't know about the rend, then you surely had some bad rolls , the 6+ and 5+ revive is a stormhost ability and needs the general in place -try to kill the general next time if possible.  Thats not a Sequitor ability.

Never said I am a good player but I lost a lot of games with SCE so i know them kinda well Another tip, when there are Evocators around be warry of fully buffed Seqs, which reroll failed saves and hit/wounds - those really hurt like hell.

Maybe I should have said having a bad day instead of being bad - sorry for that.

As said before, why not buff IJ 

Anynow I am outa here

 

[Painbringer]

I may be mistaken here, but maybe taking Sylvaneth could be a solution here. You can surround him with woods, or make him go through them, and you can also hide behind them (avoiding being targeted by ballista). Creating multiple smaller woods could help, because he also has multiple wizards (Evocators in the second list) and he may trigger "Roused by magic" ability by casting his spells. I have not played against this particular list that is mentioned by the OP, but I have played multiple times against Stormcast lists that have multiple Evocators (and other multi-wound units), and in all of these games, the approach was similar:
- Treelord using stomp and having artifact that gives -1 to hit can be very hard to deal with, even with all the rerolls. You can use him to lock some unit in combat and slowly kill it
- Branchwraith summons Dryads and then you use them to lock some unit in combat (in Woods, if possible)
- Tree-Revenants can try to take objectives or attack his Ballista
- If possible, create multiple smaller Wyldwoods and then keep casting spells. You have decent chance to slowly take out a few models every turn (I also play Drycha to help with mortal wounds output)

Of course, a lot of other things need to be taken into account: terrain, Realm rules (if used) and scenario that you play. 

[Nos]

9 minutes ago, Painbringer said:

I may be mistaken here, but maybe taking Sylvaneth could be a solution here. You can surround him with woods, or make him go through them, and you can also hide behind them (avoiding being targeted by ballista). Creating multiple smaller woods could help, because he also has wizards and he may trigger "Roused by magic" ability by casting his spells. I have not played against this particular list that is mentioned by the OP, but I have played multiple times against Stormcast lists that have multiple Evocators (and other multi-wound units), and in all of these games, the approach was similar:
- Treelord using stomp and having artifact that gives -1 to hit can be very hard to deal with, even with all the rerolls. You can use him to lock some unit in combat and slowly kill it
- Branchwraith summons Dryads and then you use them to lock some unit in combat (in Woods, if possible)
- Tree-Revenants can try to take objectives or attack his Ballista
- If possible, create multiple smaller Wyldwoods and then keep casting spells. You have decent chance to slowly take out a few models every turn (I also play Drycha to help with mortal wounds output)

Of course, a lot of other things need to be taken into account: terrain, Realm rules (if used) and scenario that you play. 

Somehow forgot Sylvaneth despite playing them most weeks! Yeah I agree they have strong tools for this scenario as well

[ledha]

2 hours ago, Ken said:

Lol, Ardboyz with big choppas have rend -1.  Same rend as Brutes.  

Sequitors with a 5+ re-rollable save, a 6+ FNP save, and a 1/3 chance to return when destroyed, plus the option to act offensively when needed, all for 240 points for 10  is not properly costed.

And if you’re  such a great player you’d come out from behind your Stormcast crutch and win with an army that doesn’t have all the advantages 

 

the 6+ save work only when wholly within 9" of the general (here, a lord arcanum who may not want to be near the frontline) and in hammer of sigmar.It will, at best, affect one or two small units. Believe me, you prefer facing sequitors with 4+/6+ rather than with a 3+ because lol staunch defenders.

Concerning the 1/3 chance of being destroyed, it cost a CP that must be spent at the death of the unit. If the stormcast player don't have battalion or decided to keep points for CP, it mean he must be very conservative with those CP. And it may not proc at all.

As for the offense, note that the 40mm base of the stormcast make them worse than the 32mm base or the arboys, who can throw more attacks than the stormcast in a tinier space.

[Furuzzolo]

22 hours ago, Carnivore said:

We had:
Ironjawz
Nighthaunt
Skaven
Nurgle
Khorne
Dispossessed

None stood a a chance. 

What in the damn chaos-realm is this Warden King bringing to the battlefield in order to lose against two badcrafted slim-folded inflatable crossbows???

That's another fake-news post, unbelievable!

[prochuvi]

Sorry evocators and sequitors are umbalanced and at low points games is worse because they are more % of their army.

 

Only dok wytches,undead ghosts,idoneth eels and plaguebearers in that order can figth versus evocators and sequitors.

[Ken]

7 hours ago, ledha said:

Concerning the 1/3 chance of being destroyed, it cost a CP that must be spent at the death of the unit. If the stormcast player don't have battalion or decided to keep points for CP, it mean he must be very conservative with those CP. And it may not proc at all.

As for the offense, note that the 40mm base of the stormcast make them worse than the 32mm base or the arboys, who can throw more attacks than the stormcast in a tinier space.

I'm not saying it goes off every time.  But it's got a 1/3 chance to. I'd happily spend a CP for a 1/3 chance to get another unit of 10 Sequitors.  Most would

As for the offensive capability,  up to 3 in 5  Sequitors can have the Greatmace that's  2 damage, -1 Rend.  That makes up for the larger base.  

[Ken]

9 hours ago, XReN said:

If thats accurate - burn your stupid dice
 

Lol multiple damage attacks work better, that's why you can't compare those units, also brute boss have a rend of -2, instead of only -1 ALSO brutes can get 2" range weapons lowering their front against counter-attack, ALSO brutes have better to hit value and more base attacks.
And hey, at least you killed them, just for you to know: we run firestorm campaign right now and our StD player managed to kill only ONE seqitor with fully buffed block of 30 WoCs, because those sequitors have been properly buffed to 2+ save instead of laughable 6+ prevent and nothing else. 

 

WOW thats a lot of salt and misconceptions for one sentence 

 

 

My salt comes from the guy I was responding to telling me my statement that the Seqs need a point adjustment was just the complaint of a bad player.  

My problem with Brutes is that they don't really leverage the Waagh that well because they're usually smaller units.   They only have a better hit value if you take two brute choppas, but in that case you're often missing out on getting a model or two in because they've got large bases.  

[Skreech Verminking]

On 2/3/2019 at 6:36 PM, Carnivore said:

We had:
Ironjawz
Nighthaunt
Skaven
Nurgle
Khorne
Dispossessed
 

Are you sure your skaven player played the skaven faction correctly?

edit: Or did he forget to bring his 240++ Clanrats with him?

 

[XReN]

7 hours ago, Ken said:

My problem with Brutes is that they don't really leverage the Waagh that well because they're usually smaller units.   They only have a better hit value if you take two brute choppas, but in that case you're often missing out on getting a model or two in because they've got large bases.  

5 brutes are only 20 points more than 10 ardboys, have all the listed previously advantages and boss with 2 attack profiles, also both warscroll on GW and in Warhammer App tells me Jagged Gore-hackas have hit value of 3+

[Gotrek]

For khorne, juggerlord with ethereal amulet. Charge him into the ballistae and let them beat on him (if they're in combat with him, they HAVE to shoot him and with a 3+ ignore rend save it'll take a while). That will still leave you with enough points to run a 3 priest gore pilgrims with 300 points left over. Priests nuke the ballistae and then everyone camps objectives, replacing any losses with demons.

[AliKing]

4 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Are you sure your skaven player played the skaven faction correctly?

edit: Or did he forget to bring his 240++ Clanrats with him?

 

As a fellow skaven player this ^

If I don't outnumber a list like above 5-1 i'm doing something very wrong (even if its 5-1 would say its on the small side). In nearly all the scenarios numbers would win you the games vs the example armies, you don't actually have to kill anything. Just absorb enough damage, which most of the sequitors only have a limited amount of attacks to kill the horde. Sensible movement and positioning can be required but unless its a hero claim an objective mission skaven should be fine

[Gorthor21]

Can I ask how feasible it is to regularly play 1000 point games with that many clanrats on the table?  It must take such a long time to get through that movement phase.  

[AliKing]

2 hours ago, Gorthor21 said:

Can I ask how feasible it is to regularly play 1000 point games with that many clanrats on the table?  It must take such a long time to get through that movement phase.  

It depends on the player really, moving models doesn't actually take much time in my experience. Movement phases are usually delayed more by decision making than anything else, once I have made a decision of where to move a unit it will take only 30secs tops to move the rest of the 40 man unit. Its no worse than armies with other overlong  phases.

Getting models out of cases and back in, that takes time though.