What should GW do to balance AoS?

[Gotrek]

29 minutes ago, relic456 said:

We're just all having the same debate every couple weeks, they should give us a megathread so we can just have it all in one place at least! 😄

 

God no. I hate megathreads. Impossible to find anything in there

[FlatTooth]

I’m mostly just replying to say that if GW has no interest in creating a balanced game intended for some kind of competitive play then why would they create three systems of play, one of which being a system for competitive play. I think some folks are still either workin in the world of old GW *or* they don’t personally care about balanced play and therefore don’t see the worth in pursuing it. 

[Future]

Hey quick question since the app was mentioned earlier. What is the point of Azyr if the points are free now? Also if I buy the Generals Hand Book in the app to unlock the rules blurbs for my army I see that I can read it in the app. That is cool and all but what if I want to read it outside the app like in the ipads native books app?

[Eevika]

7 minutes ago, Future said:

Hey quick question since the app was mentioned earlier. What is the point of Azyr if the points are free now? Also if I buy the Generals Hand Book in the app to unlock the rules blurbs for my army I see that I can read it in the app. That is cool and all but what if I want to read it outside the app like in the ipads native books app?

I bough azyr just to builds lists before the Warscroll builder was updated. I honestly dont see a big point for it but its not expensive so what ever. For reading the books bought in the app I believe you just have to always read it in the app so you are probably best off by just downloading it to your Ipad

[Dead Scribe]

Apparently Azyr was free once upon a time.  Or at least googling it brings up some bell of lost souls article on Azyr points downloadable for free.

[Requizen]

8 hours ago, Overread said:

A few thoughts:

1) Blizzard has been balancing Starcraft for decades and its still adjusting things. In fact I think computer games reveal that in highly complex games one element is that perfect balance is near unobtainable. Not just at a mechanical level, but in a perception level too. Take Daughters of Khaine as an example. They might be getting a 70% win right now because they are a bit above the power curve; lower that and they could still be pulling a high percentage win rate; but then it wouldn't be because the army isn't balanced, but because the higher skilled players built DoK armies and stuck with them. As a result they end up getting a higher win because skilled players are using them not because of inherent balance issues. 

And that's just one example of perception of balance. Many a bad gamer thinks the problem is the armies and balance and not their own skill and the internet can echo-chamber those views.

 

I haven't read the whole thread but as a huge Starcraft esports fan just wanted to pipe in on this.

BW was released over 20 years ago. The last balance patch was in 2001, now 17-18 years ago. It is still played professionally internationally with large tournaments, with all 3 races represented and played at top levels. So it is very possible to have a game that does not receive updates and still ends up quite competitive. It's kept competitive and varied by community doing things like creating new maps that change how people have to approach the game, and by pros finding builds and counterbuilds to things that seem strong.

 

That said, to the topic discussion at large, tabletop games are a different beast. Because events are long between, and it's difficult to iterate games and variable strategies, the meta does not shift nearly as fast as it does in video games or card games. Esports pros will play dozens of games per day, doing the same matchups and builds with slight tweaks. Imagine an AoS player trying to play a dozen games in a week let alone a day, just to try the same thing over and over with one unit or spell changed to see the outcome. There are definitely people that do this, but it's by and far not the majority of people.

The numbers posted online about win percents and what not are good milestones, but do not tell a whole story. DoK and LoN are the big kids in the pool right now, but I bet that if the game was untouched by point adjustments for a long time you'd either find people pulling out niche armies that counter them, or TOs that choose missions/realms that are strictly worse for those armies (in fact, if events stopped using Realms I bet you'd see a big drop in LoN victories overall). 

It's easy to point to a spreadsheet and say "there's a problem!" without really digging in and finding out what the problem is and whether or not there are solutions available. Points can help this, sure, and it may be needed - it has been needed in the past. But I think calling on a shorter GHB schedule and more aggressive balancing should not be the first step, it should be the heavy hammer that's brought out after the more subtle scalpel fixes have failed.

[Ollie Grimwood]

1 hour ago, Dead Scribe said:

Apparently Azyr was free once upon a time.  Or at least googling it brings up some bell of lost souls article on Azyr points downloadable for free.

Nope it’s never been free I’ve had it since it was first released. Warscoll Builder is free and on the community site. 

[Sleboda]

15 hours ago, Eevika said:

But isnt a yearly cycle too long? Having two armies be the only competitive choice for a year seems too long

I remember when it was years. One year is fine. It addresses issues while not having knee ****** reactions.

Besides, the world is not just about Matched Play. Even if it is, you are free to adjust things with your friends. 

[Sleboda]

20 hours ago, XReN said:

Disagree
First, books are not necessary for playing the game in the age of smartphones and tablets, even though they are cool and shiny I don't take 4 flipping wood bricks to play a game, I bring Warhammer App
Second, sample size can be small, but there are lots of people playing AoS every week around the world and GW can figure out how to gather data from community, having to wait for a year (and it's actually almost a year and a half in case of DoK) is ridiculous
GHB issue - look "First"
Third, comission painting does exist and if its worth your time to paint minies to a tournament next mounth - its worth your money (also unless you are playing SCE you can go away with collecting an army and suddenly after a year of collecting you won't have to buy 10 boxes of models to adjust your list)
Fourth, uncompetetive folks just won't care, as they can play with whatever they want as long as they have opponents willing 

If we ever get to a point where GW bypasses books, and most players (or even many) accept having others paint their stuff, then the hobby is dead and I'll move on to something else.

Some folks are trying too hard to make vegetables into meat.

Also, fun and competitive are not exclusive. I'm ok with the current state of affairs, play most of my games against friends at my house, and still have fun while competing.

[Sleboda]

12 hours ago, Eevika said:

Games Workshop is valued around 1billion pounds and they have a large team just for social media. I bet they have the cash to have a few people working on the balance of the game. 

I strongly recommend Stormcast episode 2. I had it in in the background while painting the other day and ended up doing very little painting.

 

Huuuugely insightful to the new GW, balance, etc. Refreshing as heck. I was genuinely stunned by how much they are doing that used to be pie in the sky wishes of gamers.

[Sleboda]

15 hours ago, Eevika said:

But the entire game is based on choosing an army that you like the lore and look of thats like the entire point. You should have valid choices in every army.

Not to make too fine a point, but that's more like the hobby, not the game.

The game is a part of the hobby. It's the part where you try to achieve the victory conditions of the Battleplan. 

Not all choices are as good as we would like in the game, but you may select select them because they are fun to paint it you like the lore. There is no straight line connection from cool to collect and paint to good in the game.

[Sleboda]

13 hours ago, Dead Scribe said:

Professional level AOS

I am sad that this phrase exists.

[XReN]

4 hours ago, Sleboda said:

If we ever get to a point where GW bypasses books, and most players (or even many) accept having others paint their stuff, then the hobby is dead and I'll move in to something else.

Some folks are trying too hard to make vegetables into meat.

Also, fun and competitive are not exclusive. I'm ok with the current state of affairs, play most of my games against friends at my house, and still have fun while competing.

Books are okay, but we don't need them to be our only source of rules, also there is nothing wrong with having your models painted by someone else, painting is not a hobby, it's part of it that someone might enjoy more or less than others, don't make it look like it's THAT important, that's not true

Glad for you that you can play wth friends at your place, I can't, I go to crowded gaming clubs, road takes an hour and I don't own a car so gaming after work is... questionable, most of the time I play on local tournaments competetively and have great fun, but there is one WAAC DoK ******, who can show up and ruin all my fun, that's why I want more frequent updates from GW.
 

[Sleboda]

8 minutes ago, XReN said:

Books are okay, but we don't need them to be our only source of rules, also there is nothing wrong with having your models painted by someone else, painting is not a hobby, it's part of it that someone might enjoy more or less than others, don't make it look like it's THAT important, that's not true

😳

I don't

I mean

I just

Wow. No clue w where to begin. I'm not usually at a loss for words. Just ... Wow.

 

I will say that I never said books should be the only source.

Painting is not a hobby and is not important? It's not like it's one of the core foundational pieces of sustained interest in Warhammer or anything...

[XReN]

24 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

I will say that I never said books should be the only source.

I wanted to emphasize my point

24 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

Painting is not a hobby

Are we talking about warhammer here? Than it goes as I said, painting is part of hobby

24 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

and is not important

Newsflash mate, it is not.
Some people don't want to do it, some don't have time for it, The Hobby is Warhammer as a whole, playing with your models is as important part of it as building and painting said models, what are are your arguments against it?

[Gotrek]

53 minutes ago, XReN said:

</snip>Glad for you that you can play wth friends at your place, I can't, I go to crowded gaming clubs, road takes an hour and I don't own a car so gaming after work is... questionable, most of the time I play on local tournaments competetively and have great fun, but there is one WAAC DoK ******, who can show up and ruin all my fun, that's why I want more frequent updates from GW.
 

I feel your pain, I have to drive 45min to any gaming store in my city and since i work 12 hours a day, 6 days a week, on night shift i dont get to play much either. 

As for that DoK player, ever think about running a list specifically designed to kill him? Super star drake to tank the witches and snipe the hags or whatever your army can pull out. Personally I'm debating on if I can fit in some tzeentch flamers into my khorne army for the explicit purpose of killing buffers.

[Ollie Grimwood]

38 minutes ago, XReN said:

I wanted to emphasize my point

Are we talking about warhammer here? Than it goes as I said, painting is part of hobby

Newsflash mate, it is not.
Some people don't want to do it, some don't have time for it, The Hobby is Warhammer as a whole, playing with your models is as important part of it as building and painting said models, what are are your arguments against it?

It’s a pretty low move to cut a sentence in half in a quote to try and make out someone was saying something completely different to what they were to score some imaginary victory. It was planly obvious from what @Sleboda actually wrote that he was saying painting was a fundamental part of the hobby.

If you’d like proof as to the importance, certainly to GW, of painting pick up a white Dwarf and look at all the readers models they show. Do you remember when GW stoppped doing Throne of Skulls? Well the Golden Daemon Awards has run without stopping since the 1980s and they’ve always broadcast the winners, not so much with Tournaments play. 

You might not be keen and that’s great but to claim that it isn’t an important part of the hobby is downright peculiar  

[AverageBoss]

Just going to point out that Legions high win rate is overinflated by Legion of Sacrament and Grand Host of Nagash. Legion of Blood and Legion of Night by all accounts perform and appear far less consistently than the other two at big events.

[Yoshiya]

In regards to OPs actual question, I think that GW could go along way in improving the overall balance of the game by making the internal faction balance better. If they spend a year or two on that and get it to a point where things within the armies are pretty well balanced against each other (not saying they should all be great and fine in any list, a unit like Decimators should only ever be a specialised option to take in hordes that you slot into a mostly anti-elite army for support rather than a core spammed unit you take 5 of for example. In contrast liberators should be good enough for someone to want to take as the core of the army seeing their role is to be the most numerous battleline) I think it will be a lot easier to see what factions are over performing and against them on across the larger game.

It may create a short period where some armies that have a higher average point of power dominate a bit but once the balance it achieved you can do things like look at the points of the entire faction or even adjust allegiance abilities that are too strong.

It's not like a period of imbalance would be too bad anyway given that the game is already pretty imbalanced anyway.

[Future]

I think no part of the hobby is more important than any other part of the hobby. Competitive players who don't paint, and painters who don't play are on equal levels. It's a hobby because you do the parts you enjoy and the great thing about warhammer is there is so much to pick and choose from. I think this is why balance is very important. It is as relevant to people who enjoy the hobby  of competitive play as the correct new colors and washes are to painters when a faction releases.

[Mosquito onthe TenthFloor]

2 hours ago, Sleboda said:

I am sad that this phrase exists.

Amazing when it’s a game that was originally released with no points values.

[AaronWilson]

One thing I think that's getting people riled up is having the opinion that someone else is playing the game in the wrong way.

Credit goes to @Dead Scribe his views might not be shared with everyone but he's very clear and direct in his approach to the game and the reasons he plays it. It's not wrong for the same reason that people who play with no points and purely play for the story the game is not wrong. I think it's important to keep in mind that you can 100% disagree in the way another play approaches the game there's no need to attack each other over it. 

That said the conversation could do with steering back onto topic rather then telling each other one persons approach is wrong. 

[XReN]

36 minutes ago, Ollie Grimwood said:

It’s a pretty low move to cut a sentence in half in a quote to try and make out someone was saying something completely different to what they were to score some imaginary victory.

I had no intention of twisting his words and anyone can go read what he said.
Yes, painting is great, personally I enjoy it. 

BUT After something like 7 years in this hobby I can't see any ****** reason to put painting on a pedestal, yes it is important to play with painted minies because that's the point and that makes the hobby more enjoyable, but it's just an activity like any other, Warhammer is not going to die even if all the people will start to pay others to paint their models nor the painting awards will. 
 

[Eevika]

1 minute ago, AaronWIlson said:

One thing I think that's getting people riled up is having the opinion that someone else is playing the game in the wrong way.

Credit goes to @Dead Scribe his views might not be shared with everyone but he's very clear and direct in his approach to the game and the reasons he plays it. It's not wrong for the same reason that people who play with no points and purely play for the story the game is not wrong. I think it's important to keep in mind that you can 100% disagree in the way another play approaches the game there's no need to attack each other over it. 

That said the conversation could do with steering back onto topic rather then telling each other one persons approach is wrong. 

I dont disagree that he shouldnt play the way he does. I disagree with the fact that he doesnt want balance in the game just becouse he wants easy wins 

[AaronWilson]

2 minutes ago, Eevika said:

I dont disagree that he shouldnt play the way he does. I disagree with the fact that he doesnt want balance in the game just becouse he wants easy wins 

That's not discussing how GW should attempt to balance AoS, to be fair. It's probably worth dropping him a PM or opening up a separate thread to keep it going :).