Zombie Swarm Arcai or Harbingers

[mmimzie]

Been working on my zombie horde and at this point i really only have a few things i'm unsure of.

List 2k:

1 Vamp Lord (general/Rule of the night/ Ring of immortality)

2x Necromancer

2x Corpse Cart

Mortis Engine

3x 30 Zombies

2x Morghast

 

540 points remain for summoning: Maybe Dire wolve, Definitly Zombies, Possible Banshees or carin wraiths.

 

List is strong and zombies do work. I think they could potentially struggle against some of the strong rerolling 2+ saves out there.

So i'm thinking the Morghast should be arcai. If they stand in the horde odds are they'll be able to reach over a few rows of zombies.

 Harbingers can charge out of the horde and strike more agressively. Won't be -2 rend, but with more control over where they land seems a good options.

 

I'm also tempted not to take the Morghast as they really cut into my summoning pool. Other drops might be a Corpse cart as its only of any realy great use early in the game. The zombies can take it or leave it and the dire wolves are the real ones that need the thing. 

 

Other minor alterations would be to drop one of the 3 zombie units down to 10, so the other 20 can be summoned into a unit that is or is about to be in combat. Rather than letting it stand around vulnerable.

[Nico]

If you are going Zombros with ruler of the night for the ward save (which would do well against some armies), then I suspect you would want to have a tougher general. Even with the ring of immortality a couple of rounds of shooting is going to cut through a 4+ save and 5 wounds.

Other than it's a cool model, I'm not sure what the point of the Mortis Engine is. There aren't enough multi-wound models for the once a game healing and you aren't going long on magic (5+ spells a turn).

I'm also concerned that you have an ultra slow list and no ranged threat or infiltrators at all. Gunlines are going to have a field day.

[shinros]

2 hours ago, Nico said:

If you are going Zombros with ruler of the night for the ward save (which would do well against some armies), then I suspect you would want to have a tougher general. Even with the ring of immortality a couple of rounds of shooting is going to cut through a 4+ save and 5 wounds.

Other than it's a cool model, I'm not sure what the point of the Mortis Engine is. There aren't enough multi-wound models for the once a game healing and you aren't going long on magic (5+ spells a turn).

I'm also concerned that you have an ultra slow list and no ranged threat or infiltrators at all. Gunlines are going to have a field day.

Indeed.

I found after several losses that vampire lords make poor generals they are just too squishy. Now the vampire lord on abyssal terror? That's a good vampire general he has 8 wounds 3+ save with the shield and he can fly 12 inches and he can use the sword or deathlance. Plus he still has the hunger ability and a mount that can put in quite a bit of hurt. He is 220 points. 

Yeah I converted a vampire lord on abyssal terror using the black knights horse with spare wings for the Vargoyle from the varghiest set. His command ability with super natural horror is quite fun :D. Stick him with some Morghasts or blood knights and watch people die.

Plus he has an awesome spell that can double the movement of your Death units. So one of your zombies can move 8 inches a turn. Ahem yeah vampire lords are quite squishy I view them more as supplement heroes to my force I mainly stick the winged one with my Varghiests to flank. 

[mmimzie]

I've been playing the music sense we knew what the points looked like. Speed wise it's one. Usually get into combat by turn 2 timeline or not. General with an advanced summoned unit of zombies. They get summoned such that if they get charged my original zombies are about 10" and can counter charge if need be. Otherwise. The advanced summoned unit let's me join to them and then get the charge off sooner. 

 

The vamp Lord has been a point of concern. She's yet to die, but she provides so much for the army. The command ability of +1 attack on the zombies is ballistic it's basicly a free VDM, and it stacks with VDM quadrupling the zombie damage. 

 

Though as you say he is quite vulnerable. If it's a gun line army she usually spends the game at my table edge with a train of zombies that allow her to buff my army. If at all possible I keep her out of Line of sight. The zombie train also serves to bubble wrap her from harm of teleporter units. So I'm unsure what to do here.

 

The VL of abyssal is cool, the command ability would definitely love the force up the map quickly, but the damage cut would be dramatic. 

 

The mortis engine is only really there to snipe melee heros and monsters, as its safe against melee armies amid the zombie horde. That said other things could definitely take its place.

 

As far as playing it. If your an all melee army like iron jaws or even just melee heavy the zombies by virtue of basicly having quadruple damage auto win all fight. Other armies my goal is to play objectives as summoning early let's me carve the map very quickly 

 

I'll have to consider your advice some more.

[DeGriggs]

I've had some success with a V Lord, but only ones that fly so I can be dodgy. I'm gonna run that list and see what I can make happen, cheers

[mmimzie]

yeah i keep mine flyinhg so she can chill in the horde, and make strategic charges. 

[sal4m4nd3r]

My thoughts/ramblings on this topic..

 

A basic flying VL is invaluable with his command ability. Amazing synergy with VDM. Someone stated above.. It essentially

quadruples the damage of a huge block of zombies. People see a block of slow moving zombies and underestimate them. Well two ranks hitting with two attacks a piece is insane. The. You get to go another round.. All that adds to the amount that resurrect on 6's. It's glorious and so demoralizing to an opponent. 

 

I usually keep keep him out of LOS. Using the wings and high movement to chill.. Strategically. Then I'll jump out and charge him in. He can dish out some decent damage. All the while knowing his can just regen a ****** load of wounds (chalice) and if he does die by getting in over his head.. Ehhh ring of immortality gives you a reset button. 

 

I love using morghast harbingers via summoning then charge 3d6. Makes a great assassin unit. Let's you reach out to units that are out of reach of the schambling horde. 

 

QUESTION: Would vargheists work well in place of the Morris engine? Fly, large movement and decent attack power (VDM works on these guys REALLY WELL).. seems like a huge compliment to a zombie horde.  Or have they been left behind by better/updated units??

[discoking]

1 hour ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

QUESTION: Would vargheists work well in place of the Morris engine? Fly, large movement and decent attack power (VDM works on these guys REALLY WELL).. seems like a huge compliment to a zombie horde.  Or have they been left behind by better/updated units??

VDM doesn't work on Vargiests

[sal4m4nd3r]

Wow! I totally missed that didnt I! Luckily I only performed this illegal maneuver in one game. I need to be better with my key words. 

 

With my last post I definetley started rambling and never fleshed out the OP's question. I touched on it a little, on why I like the harbingers which presents you with an option of a massive threat range (18" away from summoner, +3d6 charge distance). The Archai are nice with extended range, but how would you use the range to your advantage while remaining outside of the 1"  return swing range without being able to get within 1/2" during a charge move?

It seems the harbingers are a better option, but I always see people using the archai more often, when submitting army lists for criticism, on forums.  

[deynon]

2 hours ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

Wow! I totally missed that didnt I! Luckily I only performed this illegal maneuver in one game. I need to be better with my key words. 

 

With my last post I definetley started rambling and never fleshed out the OP's question. I touched on it a little, on why I like the harbingers which presents you with an option of a massive threat range (18" away from summoner, +3d6 charge distance). The Archai are nice with extended range, but how would you use the range to your advantage while remaining outside of the 1"  return swing range without being able to get within 1/2" during a charge move?

It seems the harbingers are a better option, but I always see people using the archai more often, when submitting army lists for criticism, on forums.  

I think I can answer you.

If you see at an dead army you'll see that what we miss really are units with high rend.  The achai has less attacks but they can hit longer and moreover they give a rend that helps a lot against Heroes or other resilience units and each wond make a really bleeding so they put forth a quality over the quantity.

Even if seen at this it would not be a lot, the final damage that haibingers and archai can do is almost the same  usually, against masses harbingers are even better.

But what makes really the difference is the "Ebon wrought armour" that can save them from mortal wounds. Added with the the base (or improved by general with immortal lord) death trait you find generally more difficult to deal with Archai then Harbingers.

 

Generally speaking anyway there is not a really favouriteone, simply the Archai are more suited to be elite or hero hunters units than harbingers, moreover when as unit hunters we have a lot of options.

This is said not considering the list anyway cause it changer a lot related to bonuses or other options that you can find in a list.

[sal4m4nd3r]

Great reply! makes a lot of sense.

OP and I have a similar problem/question we are trying to solve. So I'm just going to pose another one to you, seeing as how any information and ideas you guys offer up will help us both. 

The only reason I was considering getting harbingers was because of the summon-charge gimmick. Vargheists seem to me (relatively new to death) that they are similar to the harbingers (stat line at least)  without the ability to summon, but faster movement. The ability to get an extra attack on 6's makes it seem like they are infantry hunters as well. maybe a nice compliment to the Arachai.. going after different targets and all. Do they have a role in "MOAR zombies!!" type army. This is the build I'm going for. was thinking 110, 6 vargheists, 3 harbingers (or archai now.. you are convincing!), necro and VL. 

[Solaris]

Death only has a lack of units with high rend if you exclude Tomb Kings, otherwise there are literally tons of high rend units. I see the Archai as a more solid unit, since it basically has the same damage output as the Harbingers but with higher rend, they have longer reach, and they have better defenses. I also think the models are cooler, but that's just personal opinion  Unless I wanted to do the summoning gimmick, I would go for the Archai most of the time, but I could see the Harbingers being better in some lists.

[Sadysaneto]

I think krell works on vargs. Harbingers hit like demonic trucks.

[sal4m4nd3r]

Can we math-hammer morghast archai vs harbingers??  

lets say they attack a unit with a decent save (4+??), portraying that they won't just be going after basic infantry, but some sort of unit with a more pronounced battlefield role. 

[Solaris]

Against a unit with a 4+ save, one Morghast Archai deals on average 3.33 damage per combat phase, while one Morghast Harbinger deals on average 2.96 damage per combat phase. Against a 5+ save, the Archai deals 4 damage, while the Harbinger deals 3.7, so even then the Archai is superior in terms of damage output. It's only against light infantry (6+ or no save) that the Harbinger deals more damage.

[sal4m4nd3r]

43 minutes ago, Solaris said:

Against a unit with a 4+ save, one Morghast Archai deals on average 3.33 damage per combat phase, while one Morghast Harbinger deals on average 2.96 damage per combat phase. Against a 5+ save, the Archai deals 4 damage, while the Harbinger deals 3.7, so even then the Archai is superior in terms of damage output. It's only against light infantry (6+ or no save) that the Harbinger deals more damage.

That's what my rudimentary (re: in my head) math told me. Basically the same.. With an edge to the archai. The harbingers get the summon and charge gimmick. Archai have a 4+/5++/5++ (with ruler of the night). Wow I'm really leaning towards the archai now. Especially since vargheists can hit the unit types the harbingers are best at (infantry with little or no save) with the same amount of attacks (10.. Not taking into account any additional generated by kills) and wounds in the unit (12), with fast movement (12) 80 points less.. Albeit with 1 less point for saving throws. Does this make ANY sense at all? 

You our guys are the best. I just found his forum about a week ago and I'm so happy I did. 

[deynon]

6 hours ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

Great reply! makes a lot of sense.

OP and I have a similar problem/question we are trying to solve. So I'm just going to pose another one to you, seeing as how any information and ideas you guys offer up will help us both. 

The only reason I was considering getting harbingers was because of the summon-charge gimmick. Vargheists seem to me (relatively new to death) that they are similar to the harbingers (stat line at least)  without the ability to summon, but faster movement. The ability to get an extra attack on 6's makes it seem like they are infantry hunters as well. maybe a nice compliment to the Arachai.. going after different targets and all. Do they have a role in "MOAR zombies!!" type army. This is the build I'm going for. was thinking 110, 6 vargheists, 3 harbingers (or archai now.. you are convincing!), necro and VL. 

There is quite a lot of difference anyway between Archai and Vargheist.

1) much more synergy related to vargheists models

2) at the same price you can play much more vargheist than Archais and many more wounds (technically is the same but losing a model is different related to the 2 units.

Technically the varghesits are more confrontable with harbringers and I think in the long vargheist are a bit better, while the confrontation with Archai is much more difficoult and can be see a bifore between harbingers vs Archai.

 

ah, waht is MOAR meaning? sorry, I have a bit of flu and ìm not so in a good shape for some acronyms.

 

You really want to play 110 zombies?^^ wow you'd even surpass me that I thought to be one of the ones played them more with 40 models^^

[sal4m4nd3r]

MOAR is a dumb/funny way of saying more. So I want to spam a buttload of zombies (110-120 in 1500). Maybe more. I want the zombies to be the focus, with some supporting, fast moving, hard hitting units. I want the zombies to be an anvil (units that can take a beating and absorb damage) that also can hit back, with a few hammer units to move fast and hit where and when I need them. 

[deynon]

1 hour ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

MOAR is a dumb/funny way of saying more. So I want to spam a buttload of zombies (110-120 in 1500). Maybe more. I want the zombies to be the focus, with some supporting, fast moving, hard hitting units. I want the zombies to be an anvil (units that can take a beating and absorb damage) that also can hit back, with a few hammer units to move fast and hit where and when I need them. 

If you want to centralise them you could do really a great work using the VLoAT, corpsecarts and necromancers. COmbined with other things. Caratteristic and quite impresive. The real bckslash is the time needed to move such a mass of models.

Anyway it would be fun^^ you'd play almost 3 times the number of zombie I play and mine are yet quite scary^^

[sal4m4nd3r]

How would VLoAT help? I mean the movement would be nice for the archai I suppose. Seems like a waste of 80 points when the VL command ability is free damage. 

[TerrorPenguin]

I really want zombies after reading this thread. I thought I'd be happy with 30 but now I'm thinking I should get 60

Ive already got sooo much to paint though

[deynon]

9 hours ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

How would VLoAT help? I mean the movement would be nice for the archai I suppose. Seems like a waste of 80 points when the VL command ability is free damage. 

Cause it double the movement to an unit and it's quite awesome when you point on a slow unit like zombies.Moreover you can press the opponent that will be unable to take measures cause if you can launch it then the zombies or another unit can jump more than it's safety and ruin ever pianification

2 hours ago, TerrorPenguin said:

I really want zombies after reading this thread. I thought I'd be happy with 30 but now I'm thinking I should get 60

Ive already got sooo much to paint though

Argh...so many ar egoing to deploy more zombies than me... I really have to produce more zombies for a zombie flood^^

[sal4m4nd3r]

5 hours ago, TerrorPenguin said:

I really want zombies after reading this thread. I thought I'd be happy with 30 but now I'm thinking I should get 60

Ive already got sooo much to paint though

Yeah man. Zombies are dope. People underestimate them. Then they throw something at them and a dozen die out of 30. I chuckle because the other 18 are hitting with 2 attacks and pile in/attack twice with a couple spell buffs. Then you get 1/6 of the models you killed back plus d6 on your turn. frequently gaining back what your enemy killed for "no gain" Keep that pain train rolling. Im naturally attracted to horde armys..and even horde a non horde army (I spam bloodletters in my deamon army >_<)

 

2 hours ago, deynon said:

Cause it double the movement to an unit and it's quite awesome when you point on a slow unit like zombies.Moreover you can press the opponent that will be unable to take measures cause if you can launch it then the zombies or another unit can jump more than it's safety and ruin ever pianification

Argh...so many ar egoing to deploy more zombies than me... I really have to produce more zombies for a zombie flood^^

Never thought of this. An unexpected 8" move and run on first turn is putting those zombies at close to midfield. Either engage and deal with them (yay combat) or leave them be and deal with consequences. interesting.  I thought the VLoAT ability would be better used on something with larger movement... to maximize the effect. but thats a good idea to keep in mind.